[Kate Bridal]

This episode of The Legal Burnouts is brought to you by Stage, a women-owned legal marketing and business development firm. Stage specializes in coaching and actionable strategies to boost empathy, revenue, and visibility for lawyers, with a particular focus on women. Stage offers one-on-one and team coaching to lawyers and marketing teams at all levels.

They also have an amazing program where they provide free business development coaching to support working parents before and after parental leave. When you work with Stage, you'll get hands-on help to increase your visibility, deepen your client relationships, and build your book of business. Visit www.stage.guide to learn more. That's www.stage.guide. Thank you, everyone, for joining us for another episode of The Legal Burnouts. I am Kate Bridal, joined by my intrepid co-host, Rhea Batchelder.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Nice to see you, Kate. It's been a minute.

[Kate Bridal]

Nice to see you as well. So I do have to admit I scripted your compliment today because I was like, I have to maximize time.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We got to maximize it. We're busy. We're busy girls today.

This podcast guest is very exciting to us because she's incredibly busy, incredibly successful, incredibly influential, incredibly interesting, and has quite the career story to share with us. We just have been freaking out about it ever since she said she would come on. So I can't believe today's the day.

[Kate Bridal]

Me either. We've been planning this for, I think, a couple of months. I kept being like, well, it's not going to happen.

I don't know. I was just trying to temper my expectations.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know. It would just cancel.

[Kate Bridal]

Then here we are. I scripted that compliment, but I feel like it's very appropriate for you right now because you have been so busy and pushing through a lot. So I felt like intrepid was appropriate.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

[Kate Bridal]

You're welcome.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. It's been a time where if I didn't have all my anti-burnout skills, I would be in real danger. It's like when work stuff is busy plus work stuff plus, that's when you're in territory for potential burnout.

But I've been taking really good care of myself and staying off my phone a lot, which has been helpful.

[Kate Bridal]

I actually have done a lot of the similar stuff, like social media especially. I just noticed getting so glued to it, so distracted, like unhealthy about it. So I've been like, nope.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Good for you. It's hard. It's hard, especially when things get added to your plate to immediately be like, okay, one needs to come off my plate.

But I've learned throughout my life that when something gets dumped on your platter and you're carrying more weight, you have to remove something.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely.

[Rhia Batchelder]

So there's our little burnout tip.

Kate and I have been-

[Kate Bridal]

There we go!

[Rhia Batchelder]

setting boundaries with our phones and technology because, man, it's a lot.

[Kate Bridal]

It is rough. Well, let's get to the guest. Oh my gosh.

Today, we are incredibly honored to be joined by Reshma Saujani. Reshma is a leading activist, the founder of Girls Who Code, and the founder and CEO of Moms First, formerly the Marshall Plan for Moms. She has spent more than a decade building movements to fight for women and girls' economic empowerment, working to close the gender gap in the tech sector, and most recently fighting for structural changes, including affordable childcare, paid leave, and equal pay.

She is a New York Times bestselling author of several books, including Pay Up! The Future of Women and Work and Why It's Different Than You Think, Brave Not Perfect, and the Girls Who Code book series. As a leading voice on women's empowerment, her 2023 Smith College commencement speech on imposter syndrome has more than 15 million views, and her influential TED Talk, Teach Girls Bravery Not Perfection, has more than 54 million views globally. Reshma began her career as an attorney, so she's very appropriate here on The Legal Burnouts, and a democratic organizer. And in 2010, she surged onto the political scene as the first Indian American woman to run for U.S. Congress. Reshma, goodness gracious, thank you so much for being here.

[Reshma Saujani]

Aw, thank you guys so much for having me.

[Rhia Batchelder]

What a career. So for those of you who don't know, I actually worked on that campaign for Reshma in 2010.

[Reshma Saujani]

You did.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We both were tiny babies, basically, in New York City. So I'm very, very excited to have my former boss here. So one of the questions we wanted to ask you is just about your career path.

Obviously, it's been so fascinating. You have completed many successful pivots. I guess our first question is, how did you decide to leave law and run for office?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. I mean, look, when I was in law school, I always wanted to be a civil rights attorney. So I thought that I would work for the NAACP.

And in law school, Bush v. Gore happened. And so all of us who thought we were on our way to the DOJ, Department of Justice, we suddenly found ourself with a very different president.

And I had about $300,000 of student loan debt. And so I had summered at Davis Polk, and I was blown away by how much they were paying. And I was like, amazing.

I'm going to go get one of those jobs. And I just naively thought that I would work in the private sector for a year or two, and then I would go do what I was meant to do. And as I got there, I just got stuck.

And listen, I have a lot of friends who love working at big law firms. And they excel there, and they enjoy it, and it's like their dream. But I knew very early on that it wasn't for me.

I think I got to a place where it was just too hard to stay in a job that I didn't want to be in.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's very similar to my story, so I completely relate. It's so interesting how you tell yourself like, oh, it'll just be two years. I'll make this money.

And then the golden handcuffs are there, and it's just almost easier to keep going. What inspired you to actually run for office? Because that was a bold move.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, I always wan- I grew up really loving our political system. I knew I wanted to be a public servant, whether it was in public interest law or in another way.

And so the way to do that was always like politics and to serve. And the political process looked very different than it does today. And so that's the way that I thought that I would actually make a difference.

I don't think I knew how that was supposed to happen. If I had to find a regret, it would be that I didn't realize the importance of figuring out if you wanted to run, where do you want to run from? So I could have moved back to Chicago where I was born, or if it was going to be New York, it was about getting involved in the political system, running for city council or getting on my community board, just doing that really early.

New York is one of the, you can't just jump in. And I thought that I could just run for office against an 18-year Democratic incumbent and shake every hand and meet every voter. And it was super, super, super naive.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. But I love that. I love just jumping into something like that.

That's actually kind of how I went into law school. I was totally naive. I got in there and I was like, I have to take an ethics test?

What? I didn't know anything.

[Reshma Saujani]

No, you're right, Kate. There is some beauty about naivety. And I think when you're younger, you can be naive.

And there's nothing more than just jumping into something and having to learn on the fly. For me, when I ran for office, I didn't know how to give a speech. I didn't know how to speak at a senior center.

I didn't know how to go on television. I remember when I did my first interview, it was with Chris Matthews. And I just didn't even know where you were supposed to look on screen.

And I looked like a crazy person.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You did not.

[Reshma Saujani]

Everything was a fire drill.

And I'm so grateful for that because you always get the fear out of your body because you've actually been in that position before at the youngest of possible ages.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Yeah. It teaches you, you can do it.

And speaking of being prepared for, or lack of preparation for running for office, your election was pretty high profile. And frankly, as Rhea said, very courageous because you were challenging, as you mentioned, a very wealthy longtime incumbent. And as we know, the media is not always particularly kind to powerful women and particularly women of color.

So how did you deal with being in limelight and receiving that level of scrutiny and all of the things that come along with that?

[Reshma Saujani]

I mean, it was gut-wrenching. It was very hard because they were really mean to me. I was this daughter of refugees. I had $10,000 in my bank account and I was pitted as Wall Street's bitch because I naively, again, had this line in my stump speech about building a bridge between Main Street and Wall Street.

Now this was during Occupy Wall Street, but I just didn't know any better. And then when journalists went and wrote what they wanted to get the best headline, I didn't have the bravery to correct the record. Maybe I got a little bit of bad advice.

Maybe I just was too naive, too green, I just didn't know how it worked. And so I was swept up in this narrative because it was just too juicy from a press perspective. Here's this young woman, Indian woman running against an older white woman.

Here's this upstart talking about building bridges in Wall Street during Occupy Wall Street against this woman who's allegedly in the progressive left, even though she was worth millions of dollars. It was just the juxtaposition between the two of us was just too good. I never got a break.

I never, ever got a break and they destroyed me. But I still worked my ass off and raised over a million dollars, got John Legend to write, to do a concert... I mean, people who knew me and who met me knew that I was this young Brown girl talking about innovation, that my parents were refugees, that I worked in Baskin Robbins since I was 13 years old, that it was like this painted caricature was so far from my lived reality.

But it taught me... Even today, I don't read the comment section. I don't have a Google alert on myself.

And today, when I'm feeling like I need a little pick-me-up, this is going to sound sick, but I go read those articles.

[Kate Bridal]

That's not sick at all. I love that.

[Reshma Saujani]

I have them in like a shoebox, you know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, okay. Remember what they said?

Remember how you were counted out? Remember how you... And you recovered from that, right?

You didn't let that destroy you, right? Because someone could have came out of that race... And it wasn't just how mean they were to me in the press, but the fact that I ran through my entire savings.

I got crushed by Maloney. She made me her sworn enemy. And so for years, I couldn't get a job.

I couldn't get on a community board. I couldn't run for office. And even so, with all of that, I went and I built Girls Who Code.

And I did what I said I wanted to do, which was make a difference and help poor people. And so sometimes, yeah, I go back and I just read those articles, just as a reminder.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. It's almost like it hurts in the moment. You cry about it.

You feel your feelings, and you keep going.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. That you don't let anyone define you. And I'll never let anybody define me again.

Because I do think we tell women, oh, just let it go.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right.

[Reshma Saujani]

And that was the wrong advice.

And I'll never do that again. That way, next time, it's like, whatever narrative is put on me, I'll own that. Sometimes I, in my life, have made hard choices or hard decisions or picked fights with enemies like Donald Trump.

And then I get what's coming to me. But at least I do that on my own terms.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Oh, man. I can just remember sitting in your office watching the Chris Matthews interview.

We were so pissed at him. We were furious. There's so many other ones I remember coming out and thinking at the time like, damn, this is incredibly intense.

And I don't know if I ever want to do this because I used to think I was going to run for office when I was that age. But you really have soldiered through in such an impressive way. Okay.

One of the things I've been following you, obviously, since I worked for you, I love your Failure Friday posts. I think that they're really, really powerful. I guess one of my questions is, what was it like to finish the election and pick up the pieces?

How did you get from that point to thinking, okay, I'm going to start Girls Who Code. I'm going to go do this other really big thing that also was quite the pivot at the time.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, I think there were two things. So one, I think because it was my first big loss, and I learned this hack on failure, which is if you don't get something or you lose at something or something doesn't work out, give yourself like 30 days to like brode about it, talk about it, drink a lot of margaritas, and then move on. And so I did that for 30 days.

I would spin, you know, Nihal and I went on vacation somewhere and I'd pace the pool with my margarita and be like, "I should have done that. Why didn't I fight back here?" And then after I had gotten it all out of my system, I was done.

I think the second big thing was for me was that I was already thinking about my second race. And I was already thinking about, oh, well, I made that mistake, but I'll do it again! I'll do it again. And I won't do that.

You know, I was getting the opportunity to have another go at it, which has allowed me to pick myself up. I think the kind of person that I am. And then the third thing was that congressional run was so beautiful because I met so many people who I wanted to help.

I saw so many parts of the city, meeting all these young people and like seeing that there weren't computers there and just, just realizing how much injustice that there was and that I wanted to make a difference. And like, I wasn't going back to that corporate job that I hated. I wasn't going to go work for the man.

I was going to find a way to keep the commitment that I had made to people on the campaign trail. And that's really how Girls Who Code started. And it wasn't like I started to say, well, I'm going to build a movement to teach girls to code.

I couldn't get those images of those computer classes. I didn't have girls, you know what I mean, out of my head. And I kind of was all the things that really moved me, that issue of, of getting girls, these opportunities, especially poor girls, these opportunities in tech.

I kept, I couldn't stop thinking about it. So much of life is about being curious. Like I started Moms First 'cause I was like, wait a minute. Why didn't we fix motherhood in America? Why don't we have paid leave?

That doesn't make- right? Like I get a nerd out in the same way that we do as lawyers, right. Where you're trying to dissect a problem, understand it, understand the case law, the history, how do we get here?

What's the historical context? What if people, it's the same thing, right? It's like, I get obsessive like that about big societal problems.

Right. And so I got obsessed with like that about girls and computer science. And, and that's how Girls Who Code really started.

[Kate Bridal]

I love that because that's kind of how this podcast started was I started talking to my original co-host who is stepping away. And that's why Rhea's jumped on board, which has been so amazing. But we were like, everyone we know in legal, she was a paralegal is burned out there.

We both burned out. So there has to be a reason, something about the legal industry that is causing this. And so we were like, let's talk about it and try and see what happens.

So I, I love that. Speaking of Girls Who Code, it is a wildly successful nonprofit and it's working to close that gender gap in technology, as you mentioned. And we've noticed that many high achieving women kind of think their next step has to be perfectly logical.

Like I can't, you know, I've been a lawyer, so I must go do something law adjacent or, you know, something very similar. And that can be really limiting, especially when they're not happy in their current careers. So did you get any pushback from anybody about making that pivot and kind of.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. My mother. (Kate and Rhia laugh) I mean, my mother was so mad when I was like gonna quit my legal job and like run for office. She still is like, I don't know why, even after all that, she will still say that.

I think as a daughter of immigrants, it's like, you know, you're, there's a lot of disappointment in not following the right path. And then yourself, right. I'm looking at my student loan and I'm like, damn, like, what am I doing with my legal degree?

I gave the commencement speech at Yale law school the last year. And it was like, wow. Right.

Like, I'm like, okay, like maybe not following the straight line of what you're supposed to do, you know, means something to people. So I do think it's people's expectations, the financial investment that you put in. And so finding the courage to kind of, to do something radically different.

But I think that that's what life is about, right. Is this kind of journey in this soul search about like, what am I meant to do? What moves me?

What am I good at? What do I enjoy? What do I like?

Right. And like putting all those gifts together. Like I always loved from the time I was little, given a speech, even now for me, like, I know this sounds crazy.

Cause I think the number one phobia that people have is public speaking. Whereas my happy place is on a stage, like the place where I'm actually in my most amount of flow is, you know, in front of 10,000 people it's wild, but that's always how it's been for me. It's always been for me like that.

Since I was a kid. And so part of where, you know, the journey I'm on now is like recognizing my God-given talents and the gifts that I've been given. And then how do I use those gifts to do good?

And I think life has been a journey of like, oh, first I thought I'd do that as a lawyer. Then I thought I'd do this as this part of it is just identifying what are your gifts? What do you enjoy?

And being less focused about the job, the title and more about like how you make that impact with those gifts.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. I think that's a beautiful example too, of like zooming out and seeing the broader skillset that you have and how it can apply to multiple industries, multiple careers. Love that.

Okay. So you mentioned mom's first already a little, we want to hear more about it. I mean, obviously we know that you became a mother, so that probably had a very big impact, but tell us more about what inspired you to start with mom's first.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. So, I mean, listen, I mean, I, I remember when I was at law firm, I never saw, feels like I never saw moms. I never saw lawyers having their children's pictures on their thing. And I always knew I wanted to be a mother and wasn't sure, you know, wanted to make sure that my career fit into that.

And so for me, you know, I started Mom's First at the height of the pandemic. You know, I was finally taking my maternity leave. I was taking my sec- I was having my second child and then the world shut down. And I saw so many of my students that instead of going to college, they had to stay home and take care of their siblings. And so there's this generational cycle of care or generational cycle of poverty that happens because we have a broken structure of care. Being a mom in America is really hard. Though it wasn't until the pandemic, having my second child, did I, did I understand that that is a problem that needs solving and not just an experience that I'm living. And so I stepped down as CEO of girls who code and decided to build a second movement, Moms First. And that's what I've been doing for the past three years.

And so I really believe that motherhood is the unfinished business of gender equality. And that if you look back, again like nerds, to world war two to the suffrage movement, right, you kind of see how these divisions were created with moms who, you know, are in the paid labor force and who are not, or like using motherhood as a way to control women, limiting our choices. And so, you know, really kind of, for me, this is the last frontier where we, as women, need to battle to kind of get back control over our own identities and our own choices.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And it's so relevant right now with everything going on and all of the legislation that's happening.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. Well, it's also just like, you know, it shows this also this difference between de jure and de facto- you know what I mean- discrimination, right? And so I think right now, you know, we don't have paid leave. We're the only industrialized nation where one in four women go back to work two weeks after having a baby. And when you ask women, right, like, did you go back to work before you're ready?

Every hand is raised. So you never fully recover, right? Like if you are actually able to go back to work when you're fully ready, you know, you're set in terms of like your child, you're bonding with them, their child care, et cetera.

You're ready to go crush it in your job. But if you're pushed to go back before you're ready, you're always going to have one foot in, one foot out. It's the same thing with child care.

You know, it's 40 percent of parents are in debt because the cost of child care and because we have a motherhood penalty and most women work to work. And so, you know, when you get to that moment, right, where you're trying to figure out like so many parents are today and families are today about who, what choices are we making? It's normally our jobs, our careers, our schedules, you know what I mean, that are shifted to account for the expense that it takes to have a child in this country.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Absolutely. This is very dear to my heart because caregiver burnout, especially for mothers, is at an all time high. It's incredibly shocking actually how we're just letting this happen.

And like you said, we are seeing so many women leave the workforce because there just isn't that support system. There aren't the policies and safety, security nets that are in place to actually support them and even more women of color. So we're losing, we're like bleeding out diversity from the workforce every day, which is terrifying.

So thank you for doing what you're doing because it really is making a huge impact.

[Reshma Saujani]

I really appreciate that.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely. And thank you so, so much for being here.

Really quickly, where's the best place for folks to go to get involved?

[Reshma Saujani]

Go to momsfirst.us. Follow me on Instagram at Reshma Saujani and sign up to be part of our motherhood. We just launched a volunteer community. We have our first community call tomorrow.

Over 500 people have signed up, just bananas.

[Kate Bridal]

Amazing.

[Reshma Saujani]

We had our Moms First Summit two weeks ago, 15,000 people came.

So there's like this really growing building movement of mothers in America who want to build a better future for ourselves, who want to just not just survive, but thrive. And so it's coming. The revolution is coming.

[Rhia Batchelder]

The revolution is coming. We are not accepting less than that.

[Kate Bridal]

That's right.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for your time.

[Reshma Saujani]

Thank you guys. I really appreciate it.

[Kate Bridal]

Okay. Amazing. We're back on to nerd out about that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We're so grateful that Reshma joined us because her story truly is so incredible. And I want everyone to take those nuggets that she shared of bravery, of being able to pivot, of zooming out and looking at her skills in this broad way that allows her the flexibility to do whatever she wants to do really. And that commitment to her vision, seriously incredible.

These are things seriously in my sessions with women all the time that I'm trying to get them to see because we think so narrowly about our career sometimes and what we can do. So I'm just so glad she gave us that because I feel like it's exactly what people need to hear. This can be your story too.

[Kate Bridal]

A hundred percent. And I love what she said about when she gave the speech at Yale and how she was like last year and she was like, oh, maybe the fact that I had a nonlinear career is actually more helpful for people to hear and something that's really inspiring and got her to speaking at a commencement speech at Yale.

So I love that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

A hundred percent.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely great.

You can do the crazy thing that's in your head that's sitting in the back of your brain that you're like, "I would love to do that, but..." Stop putting that "but" in there.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Stop but-ing yourself. And I was telling Kate, I worked on Reshma's campaign when I was 19 or 20 years old. I was an NYU student and it was the summer before my last year. I just will never forget the impact that she made on me, but also watching how she was treated made on me.

Like before that campaign, I was certain I was going to run for office. And I remember what she was saying. You know, she was treated horribly.

I remember all of it because it was just so almost like a disruption of this naivite I had myself around like being a powerful woman. And like, you know, it was all like at that time, break the glass ceiling and like lean in. And you're watching this incredible woman do that.

And they really were like finding every single way to take her down. And even, not even that, but there was this New York Times article, this profile of her, and all it did was talk about her shoes. I will never forget it.

It was her Kate Spade wedges. And I read it and I was so disgusted because it was just like, this is so insulting. It wasn't insulting, right?

But it was...

[Kate Bridal]

Right. And especially for the New York Times, you're like, okay, is there an article in Vogue about her wedges? That's a different...

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. And it was like meant to be, the piece was like, oh, new young women in politics, they're stomping the streets in their Kate Spade wedges. But it was so reductive because she had such incredible, inspiring ideas.

And to be like condensed to your outfit and a New York Times profile during, you know, again, this incredibly brave election.

[Kate Bridal]

Not cute.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Horrifying.

And then I also then watched her pick up the pieces, right? She like ran for public advocate after that. There were like other election things.

And then Girls Who Code was just like growing in the back of her brain. And then she finally went for it and it exploded. If you haven't heard her name, like you've definitely heard of Girls Who Code.

Like it is so incredibly wildly successful, has become this like huge movement. And so just goes to show, right? Like the, I don't know, there's so many lessons.

I just can't even pick them apart. But like just the idea that you can meet failure like that, that's so public. And then to turn around and keep going.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. In such a big way.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right? Publicly still.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I, you know, would be broken. Like I would be crushed, which she was.

I mean, she said she was really crushed. But I like that idea too of just kind of giving yourself some time to feel the feelings.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You don't have to brush over it.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Don't listen to the people who tell you that you just should get over it or whatever it is. Like you feel it for as long as you need to feel it and you do what you need to do when you're feeling it.

And then, you know, if you want to get back up and try again, then that's what you do.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Right. And it's like, you'll never be broken.

I know you just used that word, but like a career failure cannot break you. And I just want everyone to remember that too. It feels really high stakes at the time, but even if it is that high stakes on TV, election results coming in, national campaign with that much press, that many eyes on you, you know, you go drink your margaritas and you pace around and you complain and you ruminate and then you will bounce back.

I think that's just important for people to hear too, because like I hear a lot of my clients getting their heads out, even applying for a job that they might not get. I understand the fear, but it's like that rejection is not going to break you. That is something that we can all learn how to cope with and get better at over time.

Even if it leaves you in the fetal position on your couch for a week, like that's totally fine and normal and that's okay.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You can do big things too.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely. You can handle so much more than you think.

And that's what part of her message too, right? It was like when she's saying, you know, it's sick, but I go back and look at those articles. It's like, yeah, because you remember like I faced down this stuff that was said about me and here I am.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I can do anything now.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely. Like you learn from getting through those crappy times that you can do it and that it's not going to be the end of the world and you can get back up and it helps you get back up the next time.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Get back up in a big fucking way. I mean, to start multiple incredibly successful nonprofits is no small feat, that's for sure.

[Kate Bridal]

No, no. And she clearly is amazing and very kind and generous. That shows in the connections that she's made, the network that she has that helps her continue to do these things.

Being basically a decent person tends to be pretty helpful in getting shit done, I think.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Very true. Yes. So everyone knows that's how I got Reshma on.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

She knows me from 2010 and has always taken my calls ever since, which is so generous.

[Kate Bridal]

That's incredible.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow. Just like talk about remembering where you came from and being generous with your time and advice. But she was excited to do this and we hope that you love this episode and you got some juicy tidbits and just can use it to inspire you to go after whatever it is that you want.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely. Well, this is going to be the last episode of this season. We will see y'all on the other side of the summer.

Next season, we are planning to really lead into branching outside of the legal industry, talking to people from a lot more backgrounds. We have a lot more fun topics that we want to focus on that we think contribute to burnout, like friendship, connection. We want to try and get some medical professionals on here, but they aren't returning our calls. (Kate and Rhia laugh) No, I'm kidding.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Why don't any doctors show up? It's so weird.

That's the only industry I have no clients in, no doctors. I've had one nurse, zero doctors.

[Kate Bridal]

Zero?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Which is really interesting.

[Kate Bridal]

Wow.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Anyways, if you're a doctor, call us.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes, or if you have friends who are doctors, please let them know.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, we want to talk about a lot of different things that are driving burnout, which I'm very, very excited about.

[Kate Bridal]

Thank you so much again for jumping into this with me and doing everything you've done this season. I really do just think that you make the show even better with all of your insights and your knowledge, and I'm just so amped that we get to keep doing it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Thank you, angel. The show wouldn't exist without you, obviously, so thank you for trusting me. This has been such a fun project.

You've got to have some really cool conversations. If you're just listening to this one because you were like, oh, Reshma Saujani, which we understand.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, we get it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No shame, no judgment. Go back and listen to this season. It was really good.

I know it can seem like this is only for lawyers. It's not.

[Kate Bridal]

No.

[Rhia Batchelder]

There are some episodes that maybe will feel a little like lawyery, but a lot of the conversations we have really are generally applicable and helpful, I think, for people in all industries. So go back, listen, and we will be back after the summer with more people, more conversations, more compliments and giggles as well.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes, many more compliments always. We will catch you next season. Thank you so much for listening and be kind to yourselves.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Be kind to yourselves. Bye, everybody.

[Kate Bridal]

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce.

Thanks for listening.