[Rhia Batchelder]

I'm 5'2".

[Kate Bridal]

You are 5'2"?!

[Josey Hoff]

Oh my god.

[Kate Bridal]

I figured you were short, but I didn't know you were that little.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, that's... I'm, I'm little Polly Pocket size.

[Josey Hoff]

I'm just under 5'2", so even shorter.

[Kate Bridal]

I'm 5'9", so...

[Rhia Batchelder]

5'9"?!

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Josey Hoff]

She towers over me.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh my god, you could reach all the things.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, I do, and my husband's 5'7", so like whatever we move, I'm like...

[Rhia Batchelder]

He has to ask you for uppies? (Kate and Josey laugh) "Kate, pick me up. I need help. Kate!"

[Kate Bridal]

But I will be like, what don't you want me to put on the top shelf in the kitchen?

[Rhia Batchelder]

In my house, top shelves are unused. We don't use those here. You learn to just scale things like a little monkey.

[Josey Hoff]

You do.

[Kate Bridal]

I try and use my power for good at the grocery store if I see someone straining.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, that's tough for me.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. 

I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law.

[Josey Hoff]

And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it.

[Kate Bridal]

And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts. Honey, honey.

[Josey Hoff]

Yes, darling?

[Kate Bridal]

Do you want to do a podcast?

[Josey Hoff]

No, I do. One last time, at least.

[Kate Bridal]

No, you do. I thought that was going somewhere else. Yeah, this is Josey's last official episode as a co-host. We are not saying she won't come back once in a while, maybe a guest host capacity, but she is leaving us after this episode, which we will talk more about in a minute. But we are also joined by our luminous co-host, Rhia Batchelder.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Hello. See, Josey, isn't it nice?

[Josey Hoff]

It's very nice. It's also true. Your lighting is very luminous right now.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's the really big windows. I literally just have the world's best natural lighting, and it's kind of cloudy out, so I do think it's doing some work.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, I can see that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

But I also will accept the compliment.

[Kate Bridal]

I mean, always.

[Rhia Batchelder]

As per usual, I am smiling like I didn't know it was going to happen.

[Kate Bridal]

I'm going to need to start a list of words to just keep in mind as I think of them, because sometimes I do. Once in a while, honestly, I'll think of a word, and I'll be like, I need to say that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Kate, the actress and content creator, always drafting.

[Josey Hoff]

Creative genius.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Creative genius.

[Kate Bridal]

I'm better scripted is the thing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I really don't think that's true. I mean, this entire podcast has mostly been unscripted, besides the intros, and you have been phenomenal.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, you don't edit them.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I recorded an entire course in two weeks and then edited the entire thing. It was not a good time.

[Kate Bridal]

How are you both? Rhia, we didn't really hear how you're doing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I'm doing pretty good. Feeling extra busy, so I've been having to do a lot of analysis and editing of what I'm doing during the day, because as y'all know, I'm very proactive about my burnout prevention. When something comes on, I'm always like something's got to go.

Some of it's just like I have to be off my phone during the day and actually locked in, but it's been really good. Things have been moving and grooving. I've had some very exciting client success stories too.

One of my clients, her very first session, she was so miserable and feeling trapped in a job she had been in for nine years and burned out. She left and she's starting her own consulting business. I love what I do.

I love to get to watch people step into what they love. It's really cool. I'm on a high today.

I actually just celebrated three years of entrepreneurship.

[Kate Bridal]

I saw that. Congratulations. That is amazing.

Look at all the things that are happening for you. I'm very excited.

[Rhia Batchelder]

If you're out there and you're starting something, just know it was very slow and hard for me to get to a place where I have consistent clients and you just got to keep trucking. All the overnight success stories are bullshit.

[Kate Bridal]

I love that you were intentionally slow to a degree. You were purposefully slow because you were recovering and not trying to overwhelm yourself, but it's hard not to put pressure on yourself to do everything all at once and go as hard as you can.

[Rhia Batchelder]

All the messaging about entrepreneurship is like, oh, you work way more than you ever would at a corporate job. It's like, you could. I get it.

I work a decent amount. I really do. You think about your business a lot, but at the same time, you can bring in boundaries and you can do it your own way.

I think I am proof of that. I didn't see the financial success I wanted to because of the slowness for a while, but find other things that can support you in the meantime. I think there's a misconception that it's only corporate America driving burnout.

It's like doing your own thing can be even more.

[Kate Bridal]

And you're so invested.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, exactly. It's like your baby and you love what you do, so it can be tough. Even scrolling social media has changed so much for me.

I think maybe I've mentioned this before, but when I scroll, I'm sure, Kate, you experience this too. It's like you're thinking about ideas like, oh, that's the trend. I can use that.

[Kate Bridal]

I basically don't scroll except for that now. I go on and I get too overwhelmed. Kind of similarly, Rhea, I've also been limiting my time that I actually look at it.

I've turned off all my notifications for it. Initially, I had some on and I was like, I can't, which is an amazing problem to have that I have a lot of notifications because people are engaging with my stuff. But if anything pops up, that little serotonin that you want to have or dopamine, whatever it is, your happy drugs that you get from likes, it's real.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I think it's dopamine.

[Kate Bridal]

I think it's dopamine as well.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I almost never look at my notifications.

I will set aside like time to go through my comments. So I'll just scroll my feed and go in the post. You have to get way more than me though.

So it's, it has to be overwhelming. Now it's crazy on Instagram because I have like something going extremely viral.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh really?

[Rhia Batchelder]

It has like almost a hundred thousand likes.

[Kate Bridal]

Likes?! That's incredible.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know. I saw the beauty director of Sephora liked it. It's just like going around. Rhea, that's amazing.

I know I just hit 29,000 followers on Instagram. What is happening to me?

[Kate Bridal]

Doing amazing shit. That's what.

[Josey Hoff]

I know, you guys are killing it. Kate, your stuff is like, you don't go from making these funny videos to like going to Comic-Con and doing all of these different things with your shit as fast as you do.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I agree.

[Kate Bridal]

Well the Comic-Con thing was actually more of an e-discovery comedy thing. That's how Josh Newman from the Legal Geeks shout out.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, but I'm sure he saw your work and was like, I mean, this is aligned. We need her.

[Josey Hoff]

Don't downplay your success. You deserve to be proud.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I agree.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, thank you.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay. So.

[Josey Hoff]

Kate, how are you doing?

[Kate Bridal]

I'm all right, but we're going to get into that. I feel like Rhia was about to get us on track.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I'll moderate.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

You're our moderator. You're in the middle for me. So that's perfect.

[Josey Hoff]

Oh, it's funny. You're in the middle for me too.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I'm on the left.

Okay.

[Kate Bridal]

Let's all talk about where we- our videos are. Amazing visual content for our audio format!

[Josey Hoff]

I'm also on the left. Kate, wait, are you on the left?

[Kate Bridal]

Yes. I'm on my own left.

[Josey Hoff]

Oh my God. It puts everyone, it puts you on your, yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Good thing we figured that out.

[Kate Bridal]

Vital importance.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay. Okay. Everyone.

[Kate Bridal]

Refocus.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay. So-

[Kate Bridal]

Michael Bolton, I'm going to need you to focus up.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We're the worst, you guys, I can't. Okay. My face already hurts from smiling.

Settle down. Okay. So today I'm going to play moderator a little, because we're checking in on what's next for Kate and Josie, since this is the final episode of their final official season together.

This baby that they've created and so graciously invited me to join.

[Kate Bridal]

Join our baby.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Right. Let's just not think too hard about what I just said there.

[Kate Bridal]

(in weird, growly voice) Rhia, join our baby.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay. To our listeners, the thing about all three of us together is that we can not keep our shit together for like more than five minutes at a time. And five minutes is honestly generous.

We're just having such a good time. We're trying to keep it together. So Kate doesn't have to edit like a crazy woman.

[Kate Bridal]

The thing is in the moment, I'm always like, fuck it. I don't care. I'll do it.

And then later I'm like, why did I do this?

[Rhia Batchelder]

And later she's crying. Okay. And we're going to get back to the questions.

So we're going to talk about what's next for both of these angels. I'll ask some questions and I think it's going to be helpful for everyone because I know that most of my clients come to me when they feel stuck and they're not sure about what's next either because of burnout or just feeling unfulfilled or not sure what would fulfill them. And so I'm excited to hear both of these incredible ladies talk through, yeah, what's going on for them.

If you can't afford coaching, just kind of hearing how we're thinking through these issues. I think we can get stuck and it's like, there are questions to ask, start untangling these thoughts. So without further ado, Josie, we know that you have been experiencing some burnout.

I think that the listeners would love to hear more about it. If you could just tell us what's been going on with you and how you've been feeling and kind of get into it.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. Well, first with how I recognized it a bit more and accepted it is really through this podcast, kind of going back to when this whole podcast started is just, I came into it with a bit of burnout from my prior two positions. And so I had some of that, that I was struggling with not only when I started this podcast, but also when I started my current position.

And it's one of those where if you don't take time to address it, especially if it's already at a more significant level, anything that piles on at that point is going to just push it further and further into eventually a breaking point. That isn't something that I recognized until I got to the breaking point this time. I mean, it just goes to show that all of us, it doesn't matter if you preach burnout, if you're all into that world and what have you, it's still hard to give yourself the same grace that you are encouraging other people to access for themselves.

I realized a bit when we took a break from the podcast that I was feeling, you know, burnt out. And that was what led to knowing I needed to take a step back.

[Kate Bridal]

Still proud of you for that, by the way.

[Josey Hoff]

Thank you. I was hoping that's where it would stop for me. But unfortunately, I've hit a pretty severe burnout, it's not worth hitting that breaking point.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

What was the moment that you realized, oh shit, this is serious and I'm going to have to do something?

[Josey Hoff]

It was during therapy, actually. And I was just, in complete honesty, I could not get control of my emotions. I was just sobbing because I was like, I don't, I can't do it all.

I can't manage the things that I'm managing with my own health, which is the primary reason right now, but family and work, I'm not able to give my best self to any of it. And for someone that's perfectionist, that just destroys my self confidence. And when I was just couldn't get control of my emotions that my therapist was like, you know, this isn't you.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Josey Hoff]

I'm not someone that gets out of control of my emotions, first of all. And I'm not someone that gets to a point of not being able to handle everything. She, she just made the comment of to keep up with things you do need to heal yourself, essentially.

And that was, that was the moment.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That is big. I actually remember a similar moment. I was like sobbing on the phone with the like professional development associate person, whatever at my firm, sobbing uncontrollably.

And she actually said in that conversation, I think maybe you got to take some leave. And I stayed for like four more months.

[Kate Bridal]

Ugh, Rhia. We do it, though. We do it, don't we?

[Rhia Batchelder]

I mean, I also had to learn the really hard way. Did you notice before that, like the smaller symptoms of brain fog, tired, being tired, low motivation?

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, I mean, I would say that I really noticed it probably six months ago is when I started to see the signs for that. And this is the thing. Burnout doesn't always mean it's coming from work, right?

I love my job. And I love the company I work for you have life that can be burning you out, you know, a series of either your own medical or family's medical or what have you issues can come up that burn you out. And I think for me, my the reason I couldn't really notice it up until about six months ago is if my job wasn't burning me out, then I didn't have a right to need time.

[Kate Bridal]

You don't feel like you've earned the exhaustion because it's not from work?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. So I just wouldn't allow myself to ask for leave or time off or anything like that, because I didn't feel like I earned it from this employer.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, it hurts. And I love what you said about that you feel like you're not giving you the best of yourself to anything still to this day, like that is what is my tip off. When I start to have that thought, which I've been having lately, which is we'll get to later, but where I'm like, I feel like I'm not I'm not giving my full self to any of these things that I'm doing.

That's like my primary sign. One of my signals now that I'm like, oh, I got to reassess some stuff so that I can do the things that I want to do to the best of my ability.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Do you think it's essential to be giving your full self to like multiple areas of your life?

[Kate Bridal]

Not full self, but like... Like I'm doing this thing, I want to feel like I'm able to focus on it in a way that's more complete than I'm able to.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay.

[Kate Bridal]

It's not like I have to give my whole self to this and to this and to this. But it's like when I start feeling like I'm not doing any of it in a way that I want to do or in to a level that I want to do it. Not everything has to be at max, but it's like it has to be passing.

[Josey Hoff]

I think that's a really important distinction. Right.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I'm glad you asked that question.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. I think it can feel like you're trying to give everything to everything, but it's really, if you aren't able to do anything to completion or to the level it needs to have, you just start to drown under the pressure of knowing you have so many incomplete or things that are hanging over you.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. That makes sense. I only ask because I know, especially for women, it's like that have it all mentality is a stressor, that like pressure to think that you should be performing at a hundred at all times in all areas, like a hundred percent friend, a hundred percent partner, mother, caregiver, daughter, worker, whatever it is, self-care person, work-life balance master.

It just can become so intense. And I think it's just something to look out for. But I hear you, just the feeling of I can't show up the way I want to anywhere.

It does feel fucking terrible. I mean, that capacity drop is earth-shaking.

[Josey Hoff]

It is, especially because for me, a huge, and I think I've said this before, a huge part of my identity revolves around who I am as an employee and my work ethic, for better or for worse. But I love working. Not being able to do that, it's just, it completely shakes everything as far as who I think I am.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's relatable as hell.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. And to the part about being a woman, that is a huge thing that crosses my mind.

Every time I thought about asking to take a little bit of time or every time I thought about expressing discomfort, all I could think about is I've worked so hard to get to where I am. Any sign of weakness or inability to handle it will be held against me. As a woman, I have to be able to do it all.

[Rhia Batchelder]

One of my clients who just went on FMLA leave actually felt similarly. And she felt like when she went on leave, she couldn't even talk to the partners because she felt so ashamed.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

I get that though.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I get it too. It's so relatable and it's like any other injury or health issue that comes up, it is a physical and mental injury that needs time to heal.

And for some reason, and maybe you can tell me Josie, what you see as the distinction, but I feel like it's so much easier if you were to break your leg or something or have a concussion or something that's like physically evident to say, oh, I need time off because I got a concussion. And therefore I have, what's funny is like concussion symptoms could be very similar to burnout symptoms actually.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yeah. I never thought about that, but wow. Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

Like they're very similar, but if you got a concussion, I actually got a concussion while I was in big loss. So now I'm like thinking about this because I immediately took off time and was like, I have to heal. But for burnout, I did not feel that way.

I wonder if you felt the same way, because it's burnout, does it feel harder to justify?

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. I did request leave. I would not have requested it if it wasn't for my own physical injuries.

It is affecting my ability to work physically. And that was a huge part of pushing my burnout to the max, but I would not have asked for it for burnout. I honestly wouldn't have even thought about it.

[Kate Bridal]

But for listeners, FYI, you can. I want to put some context for our listeners who might not know that under the FMLA, the Family Medical Leave Act, you can request time off for burnout. And Rhea, you're probably a little more knowledgeable about that. I don't know if you want to go a little more into what goes into that, but I learned about that semi recently.

And I think that it's an important thing for people to know about.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. The tough part is about, I mean, this is not legal advice. This is information to all of our listeners.

[Kate Bridal]

Disclaimer. Yes, we are not giving legal advice on this podcast.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Classic disclaimer. Yeah. So the FMLA does provide usually around three months of leave and you can go to your doctor, tell them your symptoms, tell them why it's making it hard for you to work.

I've had a few clients do this and I know that the doctors they went to were actually pretty well versed on burnout and they didn't have to do a lot of explaining, but potentially bringing in a research paper or an article explaining burnout if not, because technically burnout is not a medical condition yet. But I know that doctors are starting to diagnose it more and so are therapists, et cetera, et cetera, which is incredible. So you can talk to your therapist if they provide that service or go talk to your GP or even schedule a doctor's appointment with someone new and tell them what you're going through.

And then you fill out the paperwork. I would highly recommend looking at your company's employee handbook. They'll have a guide on if they offer any sort of leave, whether it's paid or not.

And then FMLA in some States, I think it's like, I want to say it's like 13 States guarantee paid leave, but I'm not a hundred percent.

[Kate Bridal]

That's more than I would have thought to be honest.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. It's less than should be obviously. But so some States will pay you for that leave and some companies make sure you're paid while you are on that leave.

If you Google FMLA and then your state, there will be a website that kind of walks you through the process. I know making doctor's appointments and filling out paperwork when you're burned out sounds like a mountain, but it's not as big as it seems. And you can get on leave relatively quickly depending on the doctor that you get.

It can be really hard, but we hope that you take advantage if you are in burnout because like we're seeing, you just can't push through without consequences.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. And I mean, these, the symptoms that I have now related to the burnout, they're so extreme. And so it is so important to know about these things.

And I didn't know that you could take leave for mental health either, because that is something you can also do is mental health is does fall under that. There are options that I didn't know existed. And I wish I had explored the mental health aspect of it earlier.

Because if you do it earlier too, you can take a month of the, you don't have to take all of it. You can take it in chunks. You can take it intermittently.

You can also take it on a flexible schedule. There are so many options. And if you catch it early, you're going to be able to do that and still perform at work.

You're going to be able to at least come back earlier or do a schedule. Yes. I'm at the point now where I can't.

[Kate Bridal]

And that's so common. I feel like we hear this all the time and people that we talk to and from ourselves all the time. Yeah, we all did it.

It creeps up on you. It's so insidious. And it just starts accumulating in ways that you don't even realize.

It's why it's so important to know yourself and know what it looks like for you. Because I think that it's hard. It's hard for so many of us to realize it's a problem until we break, spill over, whatever the metaphor is that you want to use.

And once you've done it once, you're like, well, I'm never going to do that again. And then it's so easy in a different context, and when it's looking different and the source is different to just fall right back and let it hit you again. And so I'm sad that it got to this point for you, but I'm proud that at this point you are taking what you need to recover.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. Another part of the guilt that I've had is I have been on a podcast and in a community surrounded by burnout techniques and encouragement and what I preach on a podcast about taking care of your burnout. And so there was another aspect of it where I was like, well, I'm doing all of this.

And so it's not burnout. And it'll get better because I have all of this around me already and I have the knowledge. So I'll be able to get it under control.

It doesn't work like that because if you don't have the time to actually dedicate to getting it under control, it doesn't matter how much knowledge you have. If you can't apply it, you don't have the time or the ability to apply it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's the crazy part about burnout is like, it does not, it just comes for you and it's there.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. And another reason it took me so long to apply for the leave, to go to the doctor, to find out what was going on with my body, different things like that. I didn't have the energy to make the appointment.

I have appointments that I've been trying to make for two years that I haven't made because I can't get myself to do another thing. Stress is an asshole. And it really is.

And the thing about it is like those physical injuries would have been dealt with a year ago if at my last position, I had taken the time when I received the injuries. It won't go away no matter how hard you work.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It won't go away. And I think that what's hard and relatable, Josey, about what you're saying is I think that a lot of people listen to this content and they're like, yes, I agree. Uh-huh.

I agree. Not for me though.

[Kate Bridal]

And that's what I was thinking of earlier when- I can't even remember exactly what you said, Josey, but you said something that really evoked something that Rhia and I have talked about multiple times about her clients of being like, "Yeah, but not me."

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. "I've always been fine." I think another thing is the feeling of I've worked really hard for this.

And so I don't want to pause, which is very understandable. And like Josie's pointing out, you actually end up shooting yourself in the foot because, I mean, I could not do anything for months. And I was like starting a new project that I loved.

And this is from a high achieving, hyper productive person. I graduated from NYU in three years, summa cum laude. And that was not even hard.

I was like having a lot of margaritas during that time.

[Kate Bridal]

Right. And that's the other thing you do to yourself, right? Is you're like, but I made it through that and did that fine with- while managing and I was happy and I was having fun. So like, why can't I then handle that?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Well, it all starts to build too, as Josie's mentioning. When we have this overachiever mindset, it's like, how many years have we been pushing ourselves past the limit?

[Kate Bridal]

There it is.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Like before it even shows up.

[Kate Bridal]

When you didn't think you had a limit, you kept pushing past it and then you find the limit and you're like, oh shit.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. And if you're in a profession, like we all have been or in a field that we have all been in that glorifies showing up even when you're sick and working while you're in the hospital and doing all of those crazy things, then you do exactly what I did, which is have severe injuries that need to be addressed, but saying, no, I can work through it. And somehow to me, that was like an ego boost.

I was like, yeah, I've got it. And it was like an adrenaline thing for me of proving that I could do it regardless of anything else going on. And that's messed up.

That me causing myself more pain was somehow giving me a high.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Like look at how tough I am. Look at how much I can handle. I mean, this is exhibit A, B, C through Z of also why we need to deal with like a mindset we have been taught, especially our age.

Like I really feel like we were raised with that girl boss era. It really was that that time we have to address untangling our worth from productivity and that shit is hard, slow work that I don't think I ever would have done if I wasn't forced to by sitting on the couch for months and being like, how do I love myself now?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Cause you have to, you have to love yourself while you're doing nothing because otherwise what are you going to do? Just like sink into the couch and die? Like it's, you have to find a way.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And shame yourself more, which is just stressing yourself out more. It's like eventually something's going to change for me. It was getting to the point Josey's at, where I was fried going to GI doctors all the time, wondering if I gave myself colon cancer at 30 from stress, not being able to, like you said, work, make myself food despite not having a job and not like, it was just, yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

And then the shame that you do with that where you're like, well, I'm not doing anything else. Why can't I do this one thing? And it's like, cause babe, you're done for a little bit.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. You fried yourself.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Isn't it incredible? Like we are human beings and work was like kind of made up, you know, like the way we work now we made up careers.

[Kate Bridal]

We made up money.

[Rhia Batchelder]

People used to do things that they needed to survive and like have trades and you know, in order to support their communities and like be productive, not in this way. And yet somehow we've gotten to a place where we're all convinced that we have to be operating at 110 miles an hour. Otherwise, who are we?

And it's like, you're still a human. I think that's something you're going to have to reckon with in those moments where you are sitting there. For me, it changed my life in the most beautiful way, but it was fucking hell. So...

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. Something else with the, um, FL FMLA, gosh, I'm never going to get that right. Um, is that to raise point in some States, they do offer paid, um, benefits with that as well.

And employers will offer benefits as well. And for instance, like short-term disability can run at the same time as FMLA. So there are options with that and probably more than you think.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Yeah. Just in case you're thinking, well, I can't go three months without a paycheck. It's there may be options for you to actually at least get a portion of your income.

Sometimes get your full income. It just depends on the policies.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And money's important. Like we, we recognize that not everyone can just like take the time.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, that money's a stressor. I mean, it's so frustrating because the people who need leave the most are usually the least privileged parts of society who cannot afford to take leave without getting paid. I do have a question for you, just so that put this in the back of your head while you're starting to do your couch sitting.

Do you have any hobbies, anything you're excited to do?

[Josey Hoff]

It's funny. I have not had a hobby since I was in high school. That's how work-focused I've been. So I don't have any current hobbies, but I used to longboard and skateboard. I'm excited to try that again once I'm physically able and same with dancing. I used to dance a lot and I'm excited to do that again once I'm able, but I also have always wanted to learn how to play the ukulele.

So I bought one and that is going, I did buy one. Yeah. So that's going to be, that's going to be my thing.

[Kate Bridal]

I love it because you're so little it's just going to look like a full size guitar.

[Josey Hoff]

I know. Right? I thought about a guitar, but I was like, this is too much for these little claws.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I am happy for you. I think that'll be so nice. When I was like in deeper burnout zone, I did a lot of puzzles.

I think I've mentioned my love for puzzles before.

[Kate Bridal]

Same.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And one thing I love to do now when I'm really, really stressed, I got like acrylic paints and just like cheap canvases and I just like will swirly around.

Like I'm not even trying to make something, but just kind of like swirl.

[Kate Bridal]

I love that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's just kind of like meditative and I like to like just use colors I like. It's very almost childish in a way, right? Cause you're just like, right.

It's playing. It feels so good. And that is coming from someone who, until I was 30 years old, if you brought up anything creative to me, I would have snapped at you and been like, "I'm not creative. I can't do that. I'm not creative." And I don't think I'm like an artist, you know, but I realized it's like actually kind of fun. And sometimes I like randomly, my weird painting turns into a jellyfish. That's kind of ugly.

And I just like had a great time. So I do recommend that as well.

[Kate Bridal]

I love that.

[Josey Hoff]

I love that you give yourself permission not to actually do it, to create something. And then so you don't have any opportunity to shame yourself for not turning out.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I think that's been the reason it's been fun. Cause I'm not going in being like, let me paint this beautiful flower.

[Kate Bridal]

I've been thinking about, cause we watch Bob Ross to fall asleep sometimes. Like there's like a Bob Ross channel, like on the, our fire TV stick. And I always remember actually, funnily enough, watching Bob Ross with my grandmother who painted this painting that's behind me.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh my gosh. My grandma's a painter too, Kate!

[Kate Bridal]

Really?! Yeah. I have several of my grandmother's paintings. She's, she's no longer with us, but I remember watching Bob Ross with her, but I've been thinking, I'm like, Ooh, that'd be kind of like fun to like actually try and paint with Bob Ross.

But I'm like, I know I would be so overachieve-y about it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Don't do a Bob Ross painting right out the gate.

[Kate Bridal]

The beauty of Bob Ross is that he's like, and maybe the tree goes this way and it doesn't matter. Like if you screw up, it's fine. Like he's very, I don't know if you've ever watched any, it's very soothing.

I recommend Bob Ross.

[Rhia Batchelder]

He's anti-shame. He's anti-burnout painting.

[Kate Bridal]

He is very anti. Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's fun. Or also a paint by numbers is fun too.

I really like those.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yes. I love an adult paint by numbers.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Cause they are just, you don't have to. And then it is beautiful.

[Josey Hoff]

Those are my quarantine thing. That is what I have going on and where I will be going.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, we're proud of you.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We'll be thinking about you. And we're really, really fucking proud of you. I know that we're still working on the, I believe I deserve this because I'm a human being who deserves to feel well portion of this whole healing adventure.

But I know that's coming for you. And I'm, I'm just really proud of you. I think this is going to be so needed and also inspiring for people to listen to you actually advocating for yourself and saying, Hey, this is what I need, even though it's not what I wanted.

[Josey Hoff]

It's definitely not where I thought I would be after doing a podcast about burnout for a year. But I have to say that just one, doing this with the two of you has been exceptional, but also it's been a huge reason why I've been able to identify burnout and what gave me the courage to recover and take leave. So I'm just very, very thankful to the podcast and to both of you ladies for getting me here and sending me on my way.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely. Maybe we can check in with you after you're done with it and see how you feel.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. And like what worked and what felt good and the mindset shifts. I feel like when I was on leave, the things that I was working through in my brain was like a lot of it.

I was like, Oh, my thoughts are really something. (Kate and Josey laugh) The way that I think about things and talk to myself now that I am just sitting down, I don't really hear it.

[Josey Hoff]

I'm afraid to be honest. I'm kind of scared to hear my thoughts.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It was a cringe moment for sure where I was like, Oh, we got to do some work up here. This is a little dark. Maybe I can see some of the reasons that I've gotten here.

[Josey Hoff]

Maybe problematic.

[Kate Bridal]

That's funny. Because I love my own company and just sitting and thinking my thoughts and being in my own head. But I do notice that if I'm isolated, especially when Nate's traveling and stuff and I don't really see anybody because I don't know anybody here, I get weird. (Josey and Rhia laugh) I get real weird.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Just, "I get weird."

[Kate Bridal]

I'm like, What if I moved to France? Just crazy stuff.

[Josey Hoff]

That is what I'm afraid of. Because I go nuts with the research, you guys. Any whimsical thing that crosses my mind will become a plan.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Well, that's how I started my business.

[Josey Hoff]

That's true. I'll keep you posted.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay. Speaking of Kate running off to France, we also wanted to check in with her. I was like, That was a perfect segue.

[Josey Hoff]

It really was.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I nailed it. But we wanted to ask Kate.

Kate, when you started the pod, you had left your job. Now, how long has it been since that happened?

[Kate Bridal]

Almost a year. About exactly a year.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Almost a year. She has been podcast extraordinaire. She also produces the podcast, edits the podcast.

She posts on our LinkedIn. She's my LinkedIn inspiration.

[Josey Hoff]

She's very good at it.

[Kate Bridal]

LinkedInspiration.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That was cute. Also, has been creating some incredible content. Kate is an actress and just an incredible writer as well, right?

You would call yourself- Oh my God, yeah. What do we call that?

[Kate Bridal]

Not a screenwriter, but I write my sketches.

[Rhia Batchelder]

A sketch writer. A low-key comedian.

[Kate Bridal]

Man.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You have a lot going on.

[Josey Hoff]

Kate has written herself into a job, basically. She's such a good writer.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, for my last job. Yeah, I did. I wrote an email and they hired me with no experience.

[Josey Hoff]

"I did do that."

[Rhia Batchelder]

"I did do that. True."

[Kate Bridal]

They did also give me nine interviews and a lot of other stuff. It wasn't just the email.

[Josey Hoff]

But that's what got your foot in the door. Quit downplaying your accomplishments. My Lord.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know. We're working on it.

[Kate Bridal]

It's kind of funny. Honestly, if you had ever told me that I was going to have any even small amount of success doing comedy, I would have, funnily enough, laughed in your fucking face because comedy was never my strong suit. I always was a dramatic actress.

In drama school, my go-to typecast was the woman who is feeling everything, but she's keeping it all inside, but she lets it slip a little bit. You still have to know, but she's keeping it all internal. Understated, that kind of thing.

The fact that I am now getting any kind of attention for, A, acting funny, and B, writing something funny is absolutely out of this world to me. I never- It's another demonstration of you really never know because I never, ever would have thought that anyone would find me funny.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Which is insane because you are funny. But my question, my first question for you is, what are you feeling when you think about the future right now? Because I know we're in a place of uncertainty with what's next with work.

[Josey Hoff]

Speaking of dark thoughts.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, speaking of our own, living in our dark thoughts.

[Josey Hoff]

Let's get weird.

[Kate Bridal]

Anxiety, primarily. That's the thing. I've never not had, well, I have a little bit.

When I quit, when I burned out and I quit law and I jumped into legal tech, I was like, ooh, I don't really know where this is going, but I'm going to go with it because it feels right. But I was in a job that was paying me and something that I was like, it can be a career. Maybe marketing is my thing.

I didn't have a distinct north star, but I was like, well, at least this will fold out in a way that I can continue to advance. I can continue to learn. Then I quit that job for the podcast and I was like, ooh, this will make me money.

That was naive. Then I started part-time work again. When I think about the future, I'm like, I can't see it.

That is what is scary for me. I've never been in that position where I'm like, I have no idea. I think that I am at a point now where I don't have the capacity to do everything that I'm doing to the extent that I'm doing it currently.

As we mentioned, editing the podcast, producing, and then editing, producing, writing, filming all of my own content, which also takes a lot of time. I don't want to not take that time because I don't want the quality to slip. Then also working part-time for something that actually pays me.

I can't do it all, but then I'm like, the things that I love doing are this and my personal content, but I don't know where that's going. I'm in a phase right now where I'm like, I'm not proactively pursuing anything with either of those things because I frankly don't have the capacity. I don't know what I would want to pursue if I was going to start.

Yes, I'm doing all this stuff. I love it. I'm good at it.

"It's getting attention, but why?" is kind of where I'm at. I'm in an uncomfortable spot where I'm like, I trust that if I keep doing it, stuff will come, but that also feels really passive and uncomfortable.

I say I trust it. Do I?

[Rhia Batchelder]

You're like, I said that and I'm already taking it back.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Now that I said that sentence, I'm like, what do I? But it's like I'm in an uncomfortable place where I feel like I just don't have the capacity to be more proactive about the other stuff and I don't know what to... If I were to be more proactive, I'm like, okay, so to do what?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. If we could think about your dream work day with the split of what you're working on would look like?

[Kate Bridal]

I would be getting paid to do the creative shit. Really what I've wanted more time to do is just to sit and ideate and script because that's the thing that I felt is really lacking and that's starting to get me behind on my personal content. I would love to be able to hand off some of the podcast work to be able to focus on other stuff about that that could make it more productive, like pitching us to people or speaking, things like that that make it feel like I'm not just putting it out, not into the void because people listen, but that I'm not just doing it and not seeing anything out of it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Getting a return.

[Kate Bridal]

You know what I mean? Yeah. We're helping people.

That is a return. That is the primary reason I started this, but also at a certain point, it gets... Yeah.

Josey's making a money gesture.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You got to pay the bills.

[Kate Bridal]

It's nice to get opportunities from it.

It would be nice.

[Rhia Batchelder]

To me, your values are pretty clearly defined, right? You want to help people, you want to be creative, and you want to talk about things that matter to you.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh my God. Rhia- for those of you who don't know, Rhia has an anti-burnout workbook for $22, very reasonable price. I started working on it, and I started it on a day that I was really low. I sent you a voice memo, Rhea. I hadn't gotten out of bed yet, and I just started it with being like, "I just woke up, and the first thought in my head was, I feel sick, and I'm not sick." And that's been the first thought in my head all week is I wake up and I go, "I feel sick." And Nate was out of town, and so I was being weird. I was in my own head a lot. And I just felt like I was at such a wall, and I started sobbing, and I opened the anti-burnout workbook, and I just started doing it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Just crying.

[Kate Bridal]

Just weeping.

[Rhia Batchelder]

(Pretending to speak through tears) My values are...

[Kate Bridal]

And literally, it was my list of values. I listed helping others, creativity, humor, and justice and equity and connection and stuff. So it was just funny.

I was like, yeah, you get it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I feel like it's obvious from just who you are and talking to you. That is where my workbook starts and where I start with my clients too, because I do think it's important to be like, what do I value? What are the things that drive me that matter in my life?

I don't know if this is even the case, because I don't know a lot about the entertainment world, but could you write?

[Kate Bridal]

In an ideal world, I would be able to write and be in... The acting is honestly what I love more than the writing. I love writing too, but I'm writing so that I can act, essentially.

I like the writing aspect of it, but I find it a lot more exhausting, and I find the acting part a lot more enjoyable, the actual execution. If everything was on the table, if I could just write my own shit and then be in it and have it be out for the world in a paid capacity, that would be amazing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Do you think you would want to be on TV?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Or movies?

What's the dream?

[Kate Bridal]

Hell yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah?

[Kate Bridal]

Like, if I could.

[Rhia Batchelder]

All of it?

[Kate Bridal]

But I'm like, do I want to get an agent, pay for headshots, pay for new everything, get a reel together? And then it's like the grind of just going and auditioning and putting yourself out there and just fucking doing it over and over and over again.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Do you like auditioning?

[Kate Bridal]

"Like" is a strong word. I can do it, but it's not just auditioning. It's like you have to get the audition.

It's so much work. And I'm like, I'm 37 is now the time, but then I'm like, well, it's not going to get better. It's not going to be a better time the older you get as a woman in that industry, which is another pressure.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. Have you talked to anyone who does content creation and makes money?

[Kate Bridal]

I have resources for people who do. And that's the other thing is I see creators who are way bigger than me following wise, who are just starting to like get there and they're still like hustling for their Patreon. So it is also like how realistic, you know.

But I did reach out to a friend of mine from drama school who makes like independent films a lot of his own. And I was like, Hey.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Josey and I made the exact same face.

[Josey Hoff]

Say what?

[Kate Bridal]

You did. I was like, "Hey, I've been like dipping my toe back in. Like if ever you have something..." And he was lovely. We were really close in drama school. And he was like, "You know what, Kate, like whether or not, you know what, I've always born you in the back of my mind for this stuff." And I'm so happy to get this message. So.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Excuse me. Was this just like a low key, like she sneak attacking us being like, and so I am appearing in this film starting.

[Kate Bridal]

No, I'm not. It's not anything substantive at this point. He's still working on getting his last one out the door and getting into festivals and stuff.

It is exciting, but it's nothing solid. And it's nothing like, even if I was in one of his movies, it doesn't mean that it's going to go anywhere else. Basically, like nothing is a guarantee.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I see what you're saying.

[Kate Bridal]

It was like my little baby step of being like, I'm not going to go get an agent, but I'll reach out to my friend.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Huge step, dude. And then he's like, I want to put you in a movie.

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) Not quite that committal, but...

[Rhia Batchelder]

I mean, I've always had you in the back of my mind. I mean, so from my perspective, I'm watching you put yourself out there in a new way. Pretty recently and see a pretty decent response.

And I hear you that like in traditional Hollywood, it's just a really tough world. And so I hear you hedging almost to like protect yourself from that, like hope maybe, or just keep it realistic. And I'm also like in this very short amount of time of you kind of doing it differently and platforming yourself.

You started with what? How many followers?

[Kate Bridal]

200.

[Rhia Batchelder]

200. She's almost at 2000.

[Kate Bridal]

And I just hit 100,000 likes on TikTok.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. She gets crazy views. People are really into it.

And the times you've reached out, it seems like you're getting interest. Is it possible that like you're talking yourself out of this being a real possibility to unfold somehow?

[Kate Bridal]

You know, I don't think I've been talking myself out of it because I've been trying to think of more ways that I can be more proactive about it and ease into it more. And I'm not joking. Like I've mentioned this several times.

If I have time one of these days, I'm going to develop the script that I have, that is a series. And I will pitch it to fucking Awkwafina. I'm not afraid to do that.

Like I will get a free trial of IMDb Pro and get her agents information and I will send it. But it's like, even if Awkwafina tomorrow was like, yes, let's do this. The amount of time that it would take to develop and actually get like from yes, let's do it to reality.

I mean, Ryan Reynolds spent a decade getting Deadpool made. And he's Ryan Reynolds.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Really?

[Josey Hoff]

I feel like the content you're making now and that you have been making is amazing. And people are responding really well to it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I agree.

[Josey Hoff]

And I think, you know, you have to like separate short term from long term. And so if making a movie or this screenplay or acting is the long term, but it takes a while to get there, it's just about finding what is your short term career? Yeah.

Or the thing that works in between.

[Kate Bridal]

That's a really great way to put it. Yeah. What I want to do is take the time because I'm starting to run out of the personal content that's doing well.

I don't have the time to ideate or script. So I can't keep generating it. You know what I mean?

And so that is my main stressor, honestly, right now is I'm like, I do feel like that is the thing for me at the moment. I do feel like that is something that has potential. I don't know where it is.

I don't know what it is exactly. But I don't feel like I have the capacity to give to it what I need to give to it at the moment. If I had more free time to just sit around and have fake conversations with Hannibal Lecter in my head, which is how I write... But like that is, you know, I don't have the time. And so now I'm like, what if I run dry on this thing that does feel like it's what has the momentum?

[Rhia Batchelder]

I think like deciding how many hours per week do I need, like that's open. Like, what does that look like? One thing I've noticed about myself, too, is like I have to get really specific about like the time I need for everything because it's so, I relate.

Like I have so many different things that you're like, OK, I need X amount of time to do this. Well, I need X amount of time to do this. Well, what needs to go?

What needs to come out? And I think, too, like even thinking through, do we release the pod every other week? And will someone fucking sponsor us so we can hire someone to help us edit?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, because that's the other thing. Honestly, that is the thing, is it's the podcast is the most of my time editing, pulling clips, editing the clips, putting everything on social media, writing the posts, setting everything, like all of that stuff. It is so much time.

If I could offload that, I would have so much time to do more things. And honestly, I already feel like I'm at the bare minimum with my personal content of what I am doing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You don't want to cut that back.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, the podcast, I think, is where I know I need to scale back. But that's tough, because if you don't have money to pay someone to edit, that's hard.

[Josey Hoff]

We've always talked about this, though, because this is an anti-burnout podcast. First of all, it started as a hobby. It started as something we were doing as a fun thing.

[Kate Bridal]

And then I quit my job and was like, no, it's my thing.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, you leaped all the way in. And so maybe now it's the point where we have gained a following and also having the addition of Rhia and her following. And you will continue to grow at a faster rate than we were.

Cutting back to doing episodes every other week or once a month is not going to make or break you at this point. It's just not. I've seen all of my favorite podcasts do it.

And cutting back on this now isn't forever.

[Kate Bridal]

That's true.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, you're doing a great job, too, Kate, of starting to identify what feels hard. When we get to that number of this is the amount of time I need in my week to sit down and have the ideas and have the space to have the creativity I need. What does that space need to look like?

OK, what's the delta of what gets cut? Because we have to build it out and we have to be serious about how long it takes. I mean, even if it's like, Kate, we offload one a month to someone.

[Kate Bridal]

That's true.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's an option. And you do the other one. Like, there's a lot of solutions.

[Kate Bridal]

And then I'm only doing one a month. Yeah, that's true. We're having a meeting about this next week.

So I don't know how good a content this is for everyone for our podcast strategy.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We're like, we're stressed. But seriously, it's like, I think it's also helpful for people to be like, you know, you have to be serious about what's on my plate. What can I handle?

And really flesh that out. Because we just tend to say yes. And yes, it's great that your personal content's blowing up.

And you got this part-time job. And the pod. You love it.

And you're making connections. And you're starting to go speak on panels. It's incredible.

AND no one can hold all of those things all at once. And so I think part of burnout prevention and then also thinking about what's next is just getting detailed, which is not really sexy or fun.

[Kate Bridal]

No, and it's hard with content. Because a Hannibal video can take me anywhere between two hours to two days, depending on how complicated it is, how many takes I need to do, how many different areas of the house I'm in. Am I using fake blood and accounting for cleanup time?

I realized really how terrible I would be at cleaning up a crime scene, by the way, after I did use fake blood for my April Fool's sketch. And I was finding blood drops everywhere. Hannibal would be done with me immediately.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Sloppy girl.

[Kate Bridal]

Bad job. Yeah, it's just it's so different every week. That's the part of the problem.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. And then it's really just like the big question is, are you OK letting things unfold into what they're going to unfold to? Because it is the path you're taking right now is a question mark.

And I think that is the hard part about entrepreneurship, too. Like, I didn't know. I really couldn't have predicted any of what is going on.

And I still don't know fully what I'm going to be doing in a year.

[Josey Hoff]

In a sense, you're letting go of control a little bit more. And that's hard.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's hard.

[Kate Bridal]

I also have a consideration of Nate right now is in a very solid and stable, well-paying career. He does not want to stay in forever. I want him to be able to do something that he really wants to do as well.

And like, as much as I am kind of able to be like, it is just me because we don't have kids, it isn't. And so the idea of leaning into something that is so unstable and so uncertain as he is approaching the end of this section of his career is also not lost on me. I don't want to fuck us over, basically.

[Rhia Batchelder]

But you're not going to get so far in a hole... I really think that you have a very good head on your shoulders. And you already have an eye on these things, which are important practical considerations.

And I think if you got to a point, right, where it really wasn't working, you gave it a good old fucking college try, you'll get a job.

[Kate Bridal]

I think that's the other concern is I'm like, but will I?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Do you think you mean you won't be hired?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, I'm terrified that I won't. That I won't have work or I won't know what I want to do. I won't know what to jump back into.

I don't want to practice law again.

[Josey Hoff]

I think you just need a deadline. I'm going to work at it for this long. And at this point, that's when I'm going to cut myself off and not cut myself off.

But you know, like...

[Rhia Batchelder]

Re-evaluate.

[Josey Hoff]

If you get to that deadline, and you need to make money, and you're having trouble figuring out what you want to do, or getting hired for the things you want to get hired for, which I don't think either will be your issue, but you are hireable at a decent paying job.

And so even if you have to suck it up and do something you're not passionate about, while you find something that you are, you can do it.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, which I don't really have such a problem with anymore, to be honest. Like, it's been kind of nice to have this part-time work that I shut my laptop at the end of the day, and I don't think about it until I open it the next day. I'm like, there's something to this.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You could do many things. You have many skills.

I agree with Josey. Like, there's so many different options. We're looking at worst case scenario right now.

And I think to do this, you're going to have to be in best case scenario for a minute. Right. And then like Josey said, I think it's actually genius to be like, I know that in six months, there's something's going to go off in my calendar that's going to tell me to sit down and assess. Where am I with money? Where am I with my time? Where am I?

Where's Nate? But I agree. You got to run at this.

[Josey Hoff]

Like... Do it before you can't. Because like, the thing is, as I look back at opportunities that I wish I had jumped at when I was younger, you have a finite amount of time where you can take a risk.

Just, I think you got to jump at it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I think too, like giving yourself a little mantra. My biggest struggle was like, I don't know what I'm doing yet. I don't know where this is going.

So when I started, I actually was not talking about burnout.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, I didn't even know that actually.

[Josey Hoff]

Me either.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It unfolded over time. And my mantra was like, I'm not afraid to be seen trying. I'm not afraid to learn in the moment.

And I kept like telling myself that so I could just calm that part of me. Because I'm with you. I was always on a track.

I mean, seven years old, I was like, law school, the steps are defined, you know? And now we're in a position where the steps aren't defined. And I think I am just dying to see where you are with it in six months.

Because I think there is so much opportunity, but we don't know what the opportunities are yet.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, I also, I'm like, I don't know where we're going to live next. But there is a possibility we'll be back in California near LA. And I was like, if that happens, maybe I do lean in.

Maybe I do get an agent. Maybe I do start doing that stuff and actually going into LA for auditions. But anyway, I have like three more hours of this that I could talk through. But this is really helpful.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You do have a lot going on. And I hear you that there's not, like parts of it can be let go, but you don't want to let go of any project.

So it's like just editing down. And I think it's really possible.

[Kate Bridal]

I do too. But this has helped me feel better. I really appreciate it.

[Josey Hoff]

I'm excited to see where you both go.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I'm excited for all of us.

[Kate Bridal]

Me too.

[Rhia Batchelder]

A little crossroads moment.

[Josey Hoff]

We're all doing great.

[Kate Bridal]

So Josey, I know you have to go. I mean, I wanted to give you like a good send off and like maybe Rhia and I each say things that make you feel uncomfortable and are nice about you. But I also just wanted to hear from you. Like, how do you feel about it? Like, how are you feeling walking away?

[Josey Hoff]

Highlight has been creating and working on something with a very dear friend of mine and making a new one and getting to see how it's grown and just getting to see your idea, honestly, come to light, Kate. It has been a joy.

[Kate Bridal]

Our idea.

[Josey Hoff]

You're very talented. It's bittersweet. I do love talking to the guests and getting to have those conversations and then hear from the people that are listening and enjoying it. And that has been really fun and amazing experience.

So I'm going to miss that for sure. But it's time, you know, I can't even keep up with other things in my life, let alone this. And so I think having, taking some stuff off my plate feels very relieving, but no regrets.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We're excited for you and here for you whenever you're spiraling about not being productive.

[Josey Hoff]

Oh, that'll be often.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I'll give you a little pep talk and we'll just like remind you of the fact that you are so worthy when you're not working, when you're just existing, when you're resting, when you're playing, when you're talking to us, like you are an incredible person and you deserve a lot of care. And I know also that you want to fucking work. And I promise the passion will come back again because I am the same way as you.

And it's back for me. I'll add 150% like, and it will come back for you too. Just going to take some time.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, that's very good to hear.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's going to be longer than you want it to be, but it will, when you do respect yourself, like it will come back.

[Josey Hoff]

Well, tell me how pretty I am.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, you're very pretty.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You're beautiful.

[Kate Bridal]

You're very beautiful and gorgeous.

And that's, I mean, the least of your qualities. I thought about doing our last Honey Honey like two days ago and I almost cried just thinking about that. And I actually, I'm not a big crier.

That is not to shame anyone who is. I just am not. I wish I was more of one to be honest sometimes.

I've recently been thinking like, hey, I haven't cried in a few weeks and I could really use one. And I've been trying to make myself cry and it hasn't worked. Maybe this is the moment.

I just so appreciate that you actually took this leap with me because I know it was not in your wheelhouse necessarily to put yourself out there. And I could have, but I wouldn't have done it without you. And I just appreciate so much that you have been on this journey with me and learning with me.

It's been amazing to see you develop in this aspect and interviewing people and putting yourself out there and how great you have been at it despite it not being something that you love doing. And I will just always be grateful for this time that we've gotten to have together. And I will miss the ever living fuck out of you.

And we are both very terrible at keeping in touch when we don't have a reason to. So we have to do better, get on some Zooms. But I love you.

[Josey Hoff]

I love you.

[Kate Bridal]

And I thank you. And you're amazing. And I'm so happy that you're taking this time and that you're actually like hopefully getting the chance to heal because you deserve it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, you do. Just for being a human.

[Kate Bridal]

And thank you again to Rhia for stepping in and taking on this journey with me as well. All right, well, we're now well over our time limit. This is gonna be a bitch to edit, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I feel like you guys should do a check-in in a year or something, like to see where Kate is and where Josey is. Because I just cannot wait for what is going to unfold for both of you. Seriously, I know this is weird, but whenever my clients are in these like weird transition points or really burned out, I'm like, your whole life's about to change! (Kate and Josey laugh) And I'm so excited for you. It's just so exciting what can come in when there's like space and healing.

[Josey Hoff]

I'm excited to watch both of you. Love you guys.

[Kate Bridal]

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce.

Thanks for listening.