(A horn honks in the background)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, I hear New York. I miss her. 

[Kate Bridal]

That was like the most New York horn honk.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I was going to say, “Sorry guys, these New York sounds!”

[Rhia Batchelder]

I miss it! I think I'm one of the only people that are like, I just love those sounds.

[Kate Bridal]

No, my sister was like that too. She like has trouble sleeping in the quiet after living in New York City.

[Faridat Arogundade]

See?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh no, you go home for Christmas and you like have a panic attack because you can't- it's so quiet.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Like that's a funny thing. Growing up in New York, I've just never been able to get completely comfortable in a quiet area. 

I'm scared. I'm like, what's coming for me? You know?

[Rhia Batchelder]

It is scary. It is terrifying. It's terrifying. Whenever I go home to like my parents, I park my car in the driveway and I run, I haul ass to the front door because I'm like, it's silent out here. (Faridat laughs) There's no one, no one to hear me scream probably. It's terrifying.

There's probably a murderer in this bush. 

My dad's always like, the crime rate is like… What is wrong with you? 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, but the most messed up stuff is happening in those isolated areas-

[Faridat Arogundade]

That’s true.

[Rhia Batchelder]

True.

[Kate Bridal]

-because people who do the most messed up stuff need privacy…

[Faridat Arogundade]

That’s true.

[Kate Bridal] 

…and a place where no one can hear people scream.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Exactly. Thank you, Kate, for validating my extreme fear of the quiet. 

[Kate Bridal]

You're so welcome.

I'm Kate Bridal, a former nonprofit attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I'm Rhia Batchelder, a former big law attorney who loves it, but has some suggestions. 

[Kate Bridal]

And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout, offer solutions and keep it as real as possible. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts. 

Thank you everyone for joining us for another episode of The Legal Burnouts. I am here with my luminous co-host, Rhia Batchelder.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, (in a sing-song voice) luminoooous! … That was something. (Kate and Rhia laugh) I don't know where that came from.

I don't sing as much on this podcast as I do in real life. I'm a very like sing-songy person. 

[Kate Bridal]

I was literally going to ask you earlier if you sing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Not well.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh.

[Rhia Batchelder]

But I do. 

[Kate Bridal]

Frequently, but not well. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Not well at all.

My best friend actually is a, she's an opera singer. She can sing opera. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, wow.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I'm sure there's a more technical term. Hannah, if you're listening to this, so sorry. Hannah's our number one fan.

[Kate Bridal]

Shout out to Hannah. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

We love her. Every Wednesday morning, she texts me and she says, “I love your podcast.” And she gives me like her favorite parts of it. 

[Kate Bridal]

That is so sweet! 

[Rhia Batchelder]

She's an angel.

Friendship is an important anecdote to burnout people. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes. Yesterday, I almost shamed myself into canceling virtual plans with my bestie, Larkin.

And I said, no, I'm not going to do that. And it was a really great decision because she and I hung out and we talked and we talked about the reasons that I'm anxious and then she helped me feel better. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Love.

I think there are about 782 problems with our society that are driving burnout right now. (Kate laughs) But one of them is the ways in which we're conditioned-

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing)

That few?

[Rhia Batchelder]

-just a couple- away from connection and work being so busy and us feeling so tied to our to-do list that we don't feel able to talk to people. It's one of the things we want to talk about next season.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes. Friendship and connection. And speaking of friendship, we have someone on here who you have known for some time.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

I'm very excited. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

So this is one of my law school classmates. It's sickening to think about that we graduated from law school in 2015.

We reconnected recently and I was just dying to have her on the podcast because her story is so, so important. And she's just like a ray of sunshine to talk to. So I'm very, very excited for this episode.

I'm very grateful that she's giving us some hours of her time. 

[Kate Bridal]

Agreed on all counts. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

It is another lawyer, y'all.

[Kate Bridal]

I know. I know. Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

But ex-lawyer, entrepreneur, fashionista, many things as we'll talk about. But I think the conversation is incredibly broadly applicable across industries as well. So just wanted to say that.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And the reason we're giving that caveat is that- some people might know this and some people might not- we are trying to branch out of just talking about legal because we think that burnout is an issue that is much broader.

But we made an exception because we're very excited to talk to our guest today. And I'm so happy that you brought her to us and that I now get to know her as well because she's definitely a ray of sunshine. Our guest today is Faridat Arogundade, a lawyer, consultant, speaker, and fashion entrepreneur, as Rhia mentioned.

She left big law to create IFEMI, a plus-size luxury fashion brand, which is freaking fabulous. Faridat, thank you so much for being here with us today!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Thank you for having me!

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Thank you for creating this space. I'm so happy to be here and talking with you guys about burnout. And I agree with you.

It's not just legal. I think it applies to everything. Even if you don't work, right?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

You can be burned out from being a caregiver, a parent. There's so many ways it applies.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, 100%.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I love it. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

So many ways it applies. And I think one of the topics that we want to talk about, which maybe the listeners do not know immediately, is that you are a Black woman who is in the legal industry and have had to navigate all the extra stressors that Black women do navigate, which is widely applicable across industries, right?

Black women have some of the highest burnout rates, and we're not really doing much to address that as workplaces, as a culture, as society. And we want to talk about it. 

[Kate Bridal]

We're taking backwards steps in some cases.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I was going to say, right? We're getting it. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, so true.

[Faridat Arogundade]

We're actually under attack. You know, look at like the Fearless Fund, right? That's being sued.

They were actually under attack for having small spaces carved out. It's actually been so threatening, apparently, and problematic to so many people. So it's actually crazy being a Black woman today in law, corporate America, and society.

It's constant attacks. It's a lot to navigate. It's a lot to navigate.

[Kate Bridal]

Let's get into it!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Right?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes. And you're so right. I mean, it is so frustrating because, like you said, there is this like culture backlash to some of the progress that we've been seeing, the small amounts of progress that we started seeing after 2020, where there was some sort of at least awareness and conversation happening around the fact that there are extreme biases still existing in the workplace, in police forces, everywhere. 

And now the right is like coming to undo, like you said, undo all that work and almost attack the progress. You'll hear things like, “Oh, we don't need those spaces. Everyone should just be equal.” And it's so frustrating.

[Kate Bridal]

“Those spaces are exclusionary.” That’s my favorite one.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yep.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, right. Oh, my God. Who will think about the white men?

[Faridat Arogundade]

Right? 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Who will consider them?

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing)

For God's sake!

(Rhia laughs)

[Faridat Arogundade]

You know what it reminds me of, honestly? We graduated in 2015.

This entire time, I've heard at every place I've worked, “We're a meritocracy.” We're not, though, right? Like the data actually doesn't reflect that.

It doesn't support that. But that's consistent with what the right is saying, right? Like, “Oh, it's a fair playing field. Everyone has the same shot. Everyone has the same chance.” But that's not actually true.

If that was the case, I think we'd see numbers at the higher levels, at the partnerships and law firms that reflect society, right? 

[Kate Bridal]

Right.

[Faridat Arogundade]

It doesn't match. We don't have the same percentage of women equity partners at firms as we do women in society, right?

And if you look, we're seeing like, oh, 50 percent of incoming classes are men and women. But then as you go up…

(All laugh) 

[Kate Bridal and Rhia Batchelder]

Mmm-hmm.

[Faridat Arogundade]

It's like, it's actually not a meritocracy. It's not built for people who are underrepresented, underprivileged, moms, right? Caregivers. It's not actually set up for all those people to thrive. So they either get pushed out or they have to leave.

It's interesting because the data, it doesn't support that idea that we actually all have the same playing field.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, it doesn't at all. I mean, there's that it's called like the broken rung phenomenon, I think is what it is. The idea that women and in particular Black women, I think also Hispanic women, are not promoted to the manager level.

And so there is this spot where they get stuck. And this is across industries, not I'm not talking about law at all, but tend to just get stuck in that place because for whatever reason, they aren't being perceived as worthy leaders. Which is also absurd because then you look at the data on performance and inclusion when Black women are in charge… And that is indisputable. Right? They get better results than most men. 

[Kate Bridal]

Right.

But it's like a symptom of who's already in the power.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right.

[Kate Bridal]

Because again, studies show us- and I don't have the exact data- when a woman is at the top of a company, more women are getting promoted.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

Generally speaking, people are going to promote and mentor and nurture people who they relate to unless they're taking careful steps to not do that. And it's like white men are going to bond with like the other white dudes who went to their same schools and live in the same neighborhoods and all of that crap, you know. And it's like if the people at the top are not reflecting the population, then…

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's perpetuating the doom cycle.

[Kate Bridal]

Exactly.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because the idea that people will support others who look like them, I find this happens more with who's in the majority.

[Kate Bridal]

Right. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Because I actually think people who have grown up or your entire life you've been part of a minority group, you're more conscious of these things.

You're more conscious of let me make sure everyone's being included. Let me make sure we're kind of making things fair. But I find that people who've always been in the majority, who've never had to think about these things, you know, they're just walking around in their ignorance and kind of perpetuating it.

Like someone like me, it's like when you get on that team, you're thinking about who's the person who's been quiet, right? Who's the junior I haven't heard from? Who's not getting a chance to speak on calls?

You're just so hyper aware in a different way when you've always had to deal with this your entire life. Like you couldn't escape it if you wanted to.

[Kate Bridal]

That's such a great point.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Which is a double-edged sword because that takes so much mental work, right?

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yep.

[Rhia Batchelder] 

To have to live that way.

And it means that Black women and people of color are more emotionally intelligent, which makes them better leaders. There is data on Black women leading teams and them feeling more supported, feeling more included, feeling more confident, feeling more like they are a part of the team. And I think that is probably one of the major reasons, like you said, when you are just living…

Actually, this is making me think about myself in law school. So we went to UChicago, y'all. And if you don't know, that's technically one of the more conservative law schools.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, really?

[Rhia Batchelder] 

Which I wasn't aware of until I showed up there and people started telling me that.

[Faridat Arogundade]

(Laughing)

Same!

[Rhia Batchelder]

I was like, “Oh, well, that's interesting because I've been living in New York City for…”

[Faridat Arogundade]

Good to know! 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I went to NYU for undergrad.

So like the very opposite. I didn't even know conservative people my age existed. (Kate and Faridat laugh) I thought that was only boomers.

But when I was in law school, I would say I was in my white feminism era. I hadn't been forced to think that hard about what other people were facing. And for me, like a lot of doors did open when I walked in rooms because people like treated me like I was supposed to be there.

It was just something I had no awareness around. And I wouldn't have made a good leader because of that, because I just didn't understand all of the different microaggressions and stressors. It just was not on my radar.

And it really took until, honestly, unfortunately, the 2020 election for me to go, “I am missing something here. What I thought our society was doesn't exist.” And I had to learn and unlearn a lot of what I was taught.

So I wonder like what that experience was for you in law school around those conservative people. Most of us were white. A lot of white dudes. A lot of people in FedSoc. (Kate and Faridat laugh) I can't even imagine how that experience was. Seriously!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Seriously. First of all, let me just say, law school is kind of like a dark time. (Kate laughs) It's a rough time for many, many reasons.

One of the things that saved it for me was having BLSA, the Black Law Student Association. 1L year, my friends were either people in BLSA and people across class years, 1Ls, 2Ls, 3Ls, because there were just so few of us. We all kind of came together and we created this community. 

But I grew up in New York, right? And I went to GW for undergrad. So like similar to you, Rhia, I'm kind of like, okay, what's going on here?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Where were y'all raised? Who are you? 

[Kate Bridal]

I grew up in small town Minnesota so I was like, I'm always ready for a conservative situation.

[Faridat Arogundade]

(Laughing)

Right? I needed your guidance!

Because I was like, okay, I'm not sure what's going on here. And I felt, I don't know if you felt this, Rhia, but I just felt this division. Like I had this community that I liked, but I felt like I couldn't connect with other people.

When you're in that environment, you actually retreat. Maybe there are people, right, who you can connect with, they're understanding, whatever. But you just assume, all right, I heard a couple of FedSoc people giving their views in class. And I'm just like, I don't know if I can connect with any of these people.

So you actually start to build those walls and those barriers. “They're never going to be able to understand me. We don't have anything in common. They're this or that.” You make a lot of assumptions. So it just gets worse and worse.

And so I found law school, I found it very hard to connect with the professors. But the reality was I could not connect with most of them. There wasn't a lot of diversity amongst the professors at UChicago.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Not just diversity in terms of ethnic, racial, but even thought. A lot of them actually agreed with each other. And I think that's a very hard place to go to school when you're there, you're trying to learn the law.

It's a very intellectual environment. We're having deep, thoughtful discourse about a number of topics. But then you're kind of looking at it like, I can't have that discourse with you.

So I did find law school very isolating in that way. It didn't feel like a place that really welcomes me. And honestly, that's how a lot of the BLSA people felt.

It's sort of like, whoa, how could this same place have welcomed me if I'm being authentically myself and showing up as I am with my experiences and also have a professor like this?

[Kate Bridal]

That was my next question for you. Did you feel like you could show up as your authentic self? Or did you feel like you were constantly having to adjust and mask and code switch and stuff like depending on who you were talking to?

[Faridat Arogundade]

Code switching, 100%. I mean, honestly, it's probably taken until right now, as I've left and I've started to build my own thing, where I feel like, you know what, I'm making that conscious choice now to show up as myself.

Before, it was like code switching- automatic. And that even goes back. It goes back even before law school.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Because whenever you're in PWIs, predominantly white institutions, you always have to code switch. You always have to put that on just so you can make it through. The truth is, when you don't have status or power, it's very hard to not play the game.

You have to kind of be playing the game in some way. It's very exhausting. It's taxing.

But it's just survival. I use Chicago. It's like, even when I would talk to certain students and I would hear something that I didn't agree with, I didn't even feel comfortable really necessarily going back and forth with people.

I'm like, you know, I got to see these people for two more years, two and a half more years. And don't forget, we get a lot of messaging, both from people who work at the school, but also from people of color who are ahead of me. They're giving the messaging, you know, you have to get along. You're going to see these people again. You never know who's going to... You hear that so much that you start to think-

[Kate Bridal]

That’s true.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I just need to make sure I'm being liked, right?

Like I'm likable to these people. I'm palatable to them more so than let me be who I am. You might be worried about your career, honestly.

Everything feels so heightened and so intense.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, the stakes are like my job, my life, my livelihood. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yes.

[Kate Bridal]

My future, yeah. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, my reputation.

And I mean, again, that pressure to play a role is incredibly stressful. It's like an all day stressor, which is again part of the reason that a lot of Black women see such high rates of burnout because there is this expectation of control your tone of voice. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, yeah.

Control your effusiveness. Control your... Even just like your hand movements.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Everything, yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's just control, control, control, which is incredibly stressful to navigate. On top of performing at the insane level that you are in an institution like UChicago and then the types of firms I know that you went to work at. I mean, the intellectual demands of those places are...

It's some of the most challenging work and environment to be in. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh my god.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You know, right? It's so, so demanding.

The expectations are so high. The hours are so high. And then you have to play this part and wonder what all these white people are thinking about you. And if you are stepping on toes the entire time as well, which is just so crazy. I mean, how is anyone doing that? 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, how do you get through the day?

Actually, in law school was when I read Citizen by Claudia Rankine. I hope I'm saying her last name right. It's basically like short stories and then art and poetry and then also like one section that's kind of news article-y.

But it's all basically about the experience of being a Black woman in America. And it was like, I love what you said, Rhea, about how you were in your white feminism phase. I call it my well-meaning white woman phase.

(Faridat laughs.)

I had done some unlearning. My dad was a cop and then he died when I was 20. And so I was taking all of the anti-cop stuff very personally for a while in a way that was totally unnecessary and blind to the reality of the situation.

And I was past that point by the time I was in law school. But then I was in my phase where I was like, well, teach me like putting it... I was just not doing my learning in a good way.

Not that I'm like the world's most flawless ally now, but I like to think I'm better. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

We've learned a lot. Thank God.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Thanks to very patient friends of mine who didn't ditch me every time I put my foot in my mouth. But I read Citizen when I was in law school and it's so great.

It's just such an effective book. And this theme of exhaustion just comes out of it. And that was what I latched on to because I started thinking like, holy shit, I'm exhausted as a white woman. Like just the extra shit that I have to do to get through my day. And I'm really only worried about like half the population, right? Like I'm only really nervous when there are a lot of men around.

But when you are a Black woman or, you know, not a white woman, those things that can come out of people's mouths that just throw you off can come from so many places. I can only imagine how exhausting that must be for you.

[Faridat Arogundade]

It's totally exhausting. And you know what it is s too about like being a Black woman… it's coming from everywhere, right? Like it's coming from white men. It's coming from non-white men. It's coming from white women. 

[Kate Bridal]

Exactly!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Sometimes it's even coming from another black woman, right? Because there are people, everyone's at different places in their journey.

A lot of the messaging is about, hey, here's how you can survive in these organizations, which is great. But it's not necessarily how you can thrive if you want to be yourself. If you really want to thrive or you want to be yourself, it's hard to kind of follow that general advice, which is like, hey, put your head down and work hard.

Because what I ended up learning after years and years of practicing is that's actually not enough. If you go into a firm or you go into these organizations, right, and you're super smart, you're hardworking, you're putting your head down, you're billing the hours. That's fine. They like that. They like the workhorse.

But that doesn't mean they're going to promote you. That doesn't mean you're going to move to the next level. To get to the next level, you have to be in front of clients.

Having to say, “You become the face for that client…” They don't really necessarily want to do that with a Black woman. They'd rather do it with a white male or someone else, or even a white woman.

But when it comes to Black women, they're like, we want you in the background doing the grunt work. We might pull you out for a photo op at an event. There might be two Black people in the event, you'll see them in the photos, right?

[Rhia Batchelder]

We'd like you to recruit for us, please.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I was recruiting every year from the first year. I'm like, what do I know about the firm? 

(Faridat Laughs)

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, I bet.

[Faridat Arogundade]

You're kind of trotted out for these things. But when it comes to the important things like promotion, like giving you a piece of equity, they're like, oh, I don't know. You need to do all this extra stuff.

Or we don't really know about you. And it's like, wait, you were comfortable with me doing all this other work. Or you were comfortable with me being in the background.

So it's exhausting and it's traumatic. Going through these kind of events where you're dealing with these microaggressions, macroaggressions, racism, sexism, patriarchy, capitalism. It's trauma.

And it's literally living in your body. I didn't really know about burnout way back when. I wish I did. Because all these issues in your life are actually interrelated. 

[Kate Bridal]

YES!

[Faridat Arogundade]

You can't really compartmentalize it. Like, oh, I'm having an issue with my friend. That's the issue. Well, yeah, but everything you're dealing with in your life is actually all working together. So it's hard.

It's very exhausting. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

I can only imagine. How long did you practice for?

[Faridat Arogundade]

I practiced for about eight and a half years. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Damn!

[Kate Bridal]

Wow!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah. And I was actually a paralegal before law school.

[Kate Bridal]

Holy moly!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Eight and a half years. I think that is… that’s long. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah it’s a long time. A lot of Black attorneys don't make it to that level in private practice. You know, they leave before that. People would say to me, like, wow, I can't believe you made it so long because it's so rare.

I remember listening to a talk. There was a Black woman. She was like the first Black person actually to be promoted to partner at the firm.

[Kate Bridal]

Wow.

[Faridat Arogundade]

She came back to speak. And she was speaking to the whole firm. So it wasn't just like speaking to the Black attorney.

She was talking to everyone. And she said, you know, when she was up for partner, everyone else was like a white man or maybe one or two white women. And they asked her to submit an extra essay or an extra report on why she should make partner. And she's like, “I was so furious because no one else was being asked to submit this extra document.”

And, you know, of course she made it. She used it to her advantage. She made partner. That's all great. 

But it's like that's representative of what it's like. You know, I feel like it's such a great story because it really, really illustrates this is what it's like. You always have to do this extra. You always have to do more to prove your worth. That's really exhausting. That's going to wear you out. 

She stayed a partner for a few years and then left. And of course, you know, I don't want to assume why she left or whatever. But I can't help but wonder if, you know, the culmination of a lifetime of just grinding, like really, really having to grind… It wears down on you. And at some point you're just like, well. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. I'm done. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

I gotta go.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I'm not me anymore. I need to do something.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know. And when you're trying to do hard work and really perform at a high level, it's like, are we making that impossible for Black people in this country? Because-

[Kate Bridal]

Well, and in firms like where white men are expected to act like they're there 24-7, how do you do it? How do you do anything extra?

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

And like those types of jobs, even for white men, are almost to the point of being inhumane.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes!

[Rhia Batchelder]

So then it's like you add things on top of that. How are we okay with this? 

[Kate Bridal]

It breaks my heart.

[Rhia Batchelder]

How are we letting this happen again and again and again? And like you mentioned, having Black people leave over and over and over and just not addressing the issue. I mean, we're just like covering our eyes and saying like, “Oh…” And then there'll be like the crazy conservatives that- some of which we went to law school with saying things like, oh, you can't cut it.

And it's like, you don't understand what's going on. 

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing)

You wouldn't cut it either if you had to put up with all of this stuff.

[Faridat Arogundade]

No.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You wouldn't cut it either!

[Faridat Arogundade]

The other issue I think people don't often get into is there are a lot of cultural differences between someone who can stay at work 24-7 and someone who can't. And I think when you look at a lot of Black women, there are also a lot of immigrants who are Nigerian or even if you're Black American: If you are part of a family of origin or a culture of origin that is about togetherness, it's hard to have a 24-7 job and also be a present member of your family. 

And I have seen women and people of color being penalized for this in big law because the reality is you can't be 24-7 at work and go out and date, have a family.

I don't want to say that white people don't have a culture but I do think there is an element here that's not really being recognized. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

For example, I had a colleague who told me a story once about how she had a family member's naming ceremony which is a very important event within Nigerian culture. And she wanted to go out for this event but the partners in the firm are like, “You need to be at work, we need you doing this deal.”

And it's like, okay, but you don't think this is a big deal, right? Because you don't value this. But actually within my culture, it's actually very important, it's very significant. Those things are not respected. 

I actually took the approach when I started in big law, I was like, I'm actually not going to tell anyone anything personal because what I saw was the people who brought personal things to work, they were penalized. They might not say anything to your face but behind your back and in rooms that you're not in, they're writing you off.

This happens all the time with mothers, right? This happens all the time with people of color. If you kind of give somebody the excuses, they don't feel that's valid enough for you to not be doing work.

And it will hurt your career at that firm.

[Rhia Batchelder]

White Americans in particular, our culture is hyper-individualism. We have created this idea that we are all doing it alone and bootstrapping and it's part of white supremacy culture, right? So I actually think that's an incredible point because unfortunately we have to reckon with what we've created and how sick and unhealthy it's making all of us, but there are elements of culture that just go so we brush over them.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And like corporate and firm culture and this idea of like nine-to-five workday, whatever, five days a week or more in the case of firms, is built around a time when it was like, well, white men are going to work with a woman at home to take care of everything else. 

They can just go to work and that can be what they do and that was the way that this whole system gets built and then it's like that starts changing and we start being like, “Hey, by the way, not all of us can operate like that,” and nothing substantive about the culture or the way that it operates changes. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right.

And white men are not held to a standard of like community support and relationships and all of those things like women are.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah. Even within the firm, who's being asked to organize the event? 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah! Oh, so true.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Who's being told, hey, we want a group happy hour. Can you pick a place?

Can you, can you do this? I'm like, wait, we have an events department. Why am I planning the happy hour? And I never saw a man being tasked with that. The first line of people to ask? Women. Always.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I had a client, actually, she works in big law and we were talking about her major work stressors and this was one of them. They just constantly dumped every single event on her and she felt like if I don't do anything, there's not going to be a women's event. There’s not gonna be…

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, that part of it too.

[Rhia Batchelder]

 I'm like, girl, you are working already 56 hour weeks and then trying to have a life and then take care of yourself and feed yourself. This is not possible for you to do, but it was so interesting how the firm had kind of convinced her that this is her responsibility. 

[Kate Bridal]

Well, and I'm sure she was terrified to say no.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yep. 

[Kate Bridal]

For how it would reflect on her.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I think the problem too is like, ultimately, these things aren't helping you get ahead at that firm. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

No. 

[Kate Bridal]

No, it's just a time suck!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Right? And they give you these empty words. And one thing I know I have to say like about Big Law is I think the whole system actually really erodes people's sense of like self, confidence, esteem, and all those things.

I have so many mentees, right? And a lot of them are still in Big Law. When I talk to them before they start Big Law and I talk to them now a few months in, I'm like, oh, who are you?

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, wow.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Like, they're so unsure of themselves. Everything seems so heightened. Like, if I don't go to this happy hour, this person is not going to like me.

They're never going to put me on a deal or a case. I'm never going to get this opportunity. I'm like, whoa.

But that's what ends up happening is the environment is so toxic and you get in and you think that's the whole world, right? This firm is my entire world. If this person doesn't like me, if I get exed out from this, it's done.

I'm like, it's not done. But that's how you end up feeling once you get into Big Law. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Because it almost is your entire world!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

When you are working 70 hour weeks, you don't have a lot of room for other life. So it becomes so much of your reality. 

I remember one of the first trainings I did, they were basically telling you, you know, you are on demand. Like you are tied to your phone. You're expected to be immediately responsive. If you work on a deal until 3 a.m., you need to be up at 8 a.m. responding to the partner's emails.  And you kind of just like are getting this messaging like “be the robot, be the robot, be the robot.” 

The week I had actually gotten like a depression diagnosis, I was doing this like deposition training that partners like pushed me into and really wanted me to do. That was so much work. 

And I was on this deal where we were responding to TROs with like 48-hour response times like over and over and over again. Japanese company, so I was on 10 p.m. calls constantly with the client. 

So I got a call to join a new case. And I was like, I am at capacity of underwater. Because I was. And I had worked like I think 65 hours that week or maybe 70. And I remember I got this call from the assigning partner. And she was nasty to me and was basically like, “You're not underwater. Don't say that again. This is the number you need to be hitting in order to push back. Otherwise, you say yes.”

And she hung up on me. 

[Kate Bridal]

Wow.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I just remember feeling like punched in the gut. And kind of like you're saying your voice and that like connection to your limits and like this is not OK with me starts to be taken away from you.

And so you're just a yes person kind of walking on this treadmill until something happens to kind of shake you out of it. 

[Kate Bridal]

And you're constantly praised for pushing your limits. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

And that starts in law school, too.

“Oh, it's so hard. You've all worked so hard to get here. You're the elite few, whatever, who actually made it. And if you actually get through and graduate…” You know.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, I forgot about that.

[Kate Bridal]

Like all of that crap starts getting shoved down your throat. Pushing yourself to and past your limits is a good thing. That's what we expect.

When you were saying that, Rhia, that was your intro. I was like, if I had gone to a firm and they were saying that, that would have been getting me amped. I would have been like, “Oh, yeah, I can be the most responsive. I'll be the most responsive you've ever seen! I'll respond in two seconds!” 

You know, because you've learned that that's what you get rewarded for.

[Faridat Arogundade]

And the reality is there's certain personality types, right, that are drawn to law school. So this all kind of builds on, you know what I mean? When you're at these firms, right, it's like, oh, you don't want to piss that staffing partner off.

She's so important. He's so important. And you're hearing all this messaging every single day that it really does start to erode that intuition of like, “Wait, that doesn't make sense,” because you're hearing, “Oh, this person is so important. You want to be on that case. You want to be on that deal.” 

And so all of a sudden you start to believe these things is true. It's being reinforced. It really takes intentional time and dedication to kind of like wind that back because it really does get beaten into you. 

[Kate Bridal]

Well, and plus when you're exhausted.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, it's like what is what is real? I had this whole, you know, crisis of like, why the hell did I do that? Like, what did I just do to my body?

But you do kind of get brainwashed into it and you think it's normal and then you leave. And the relief on the other side of like starting to deconstruct yourself from those demands and that like expectation of this is who you have to be is so extreme. I wonder if you experienced that.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Part of it for me is I've actually had to completely disconnect from certain voices. And a lot of those voices are the people I used to work with, because if you're still in it, you're never going to understand why I left, why I'm choosing something different. 

[Kate Bridal]

It's like leaving a cult.

(Kate laughs)

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah, no, literally, literally it is because I think people have these like visceral, really, really, really strong reactions. It's almost like they they take it personally. Like I'm making a statement about them when I choose something for me.

I've had people be really upset. Like I had one partner who's like, “You know, there are no Black women partners in finance. You should do it.”

And I'm like that’s fine, but…

[Kate Bridal] 

This was my question!

[Faridat Arogundade]

And I hear you. Right?

You know what I mean? I do think that path should be available. Obviously for Black women in finance who want to be partners, they should be able to. But I'm not going to just be a partner to prove a point, right?

Because it's still my life.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right.

[Faridat Arogundade] 

I still have to live an actual life. I mean, I'm a person.

Here's the thing. I'm an adult. First of all, I'm grown.

OK, so no question. That's number one. (Kate and Rhia laugh) If you don't pay a bill in my household, right, like I don't I don't really have to answer anything here. 

But I'm like some of these people I just cannot speak to right now because they don't get it when you say you want to leave. Like they don't think there's any alternative that's as prestigious, as worthy, as whatever.

I won't lie. You buy into that in a way as well. Right.

[Kate Bridal]

Ohhhhh yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Even now sometimes people are like, what do you do? And I'm like, “Oh, I'm a lawyer.”

And I'm like, oh… 

[Kate Bridal]

I know I was open with like, “Well, I used to be a lawyer.” Like I still have to drop it. Right?

[Faridat Arogundade]

You know, because it becomes part of your identity and you know, there's a certain cachet, there's a certain respect that people will give to you once they know, oh, you're a lawyer. OK, you must be smart. You must be this.

You must be that. I mean, even though it's toxic, it is a bubble, right? It is a comfort zone.

It is security and safety in many ways. I have people who who still say to me like, “Oh, you're on a career break.” (Laughing) And I'm like, no, I'm actually not on a career break.

But this is a way you can describe it to make yourself feel comfortable. There's some people who I think are just like, right. You know, they write me off, right?

Like, “Oh, she couldn't hack it.” I'm like, I've been on 2,500 a year for eight years. Of course I can hack it!

[Rhia Batchelder]

I didn't want to hack it.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Exactly. I didn't want to hack it.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Well, and those two reactions are interesting, too, where it's like either they write you off and say you didn't want to hack it or they just go, “She'll be back.”

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

It's one or the other.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I did experience like the exact same thing of just needing a real break from attorneys after I left. Even like the corporate world in general. You're exactly dead on that you kind of need to divest yourself from those spaces in order to start hearing your own voice again and like hearing that intuition.

What do I want? If I am not listening to all those stories and all that messaging about prestige and money and what success looks like to those people, how do I define it? What do I think impact looks like? What kind of change do I want to make in the world? Answering those for yourself versus just walking on the treadmill. That's so much harder.

There's so many layers to leaving something like that and leaving a career like that. I mean, it gives you money that allows you to do whatever you want. It gives you, like you said, that instant credibility. The way that people immediately, every single time, change the way that they talk to me when I say, “I'm an attorney, I practice complex commercial litigation.” Because before they're like, “Oh, look at this little secretary, this small lady with like… boobs,” (Kate and Faridat laugh.) you know, and then they're like… It's so real!

And I'm sure you get, you know, your own version of that. When people meet me and they think I'm going to be like stupid and vapid, I think it's like the immediate impression I notice people have of me. And then you say that you feel the change.

It's real. So letting go of that yourself, it's like you are releasing something that is some real social currency in order to be happier, which is a very challenging decision to make. I assume especially so when you have all this extra pressure of like being an immigrant and needing to make it. And you're the only Black woman in the room.

Oh, well, we need a Black woman partner. And we ought to show younger people that they can make these moves. I mean, I can't even imagine the strength and courage it took to walk away.

[Faridat Arogundade]

You know, it reminds me, I mentioned her earlier, but the Black woman who was the first to make partner, by the way, this was all the way in the 80s. And she was one of the first Black partners just in general and big law. And she talks actually about how after she made partner, you know, the announcement goes out.

She started to receive letters from all these Black people around the country who were lawyers and writing in. “It's so inspiring to see you make partner.” Of course, that moves you.

You know, you feel this responsibility of, wow, like all these people are looking up to me. And so you feel that responsibility. But at the same time, you're struggling between, well, what do I care about?

A lot of times you actually need that outside person to come in and work with you, who's trained, who really knows how to dig deep and really interrogate the things you're saying.

[Rhia Batchelder]

My style of coaching is always like, how do we get to your intuition? What works for you? Back to your voice.

And usually it's just untangling all the shoulds and outside perspectives that you're trying to place on yourself, which gets exhausting at some point. And I think as we age, as professionals, you learn like there just is not enough energy in the day to both do great work and pretend to be an entirely different person (Kate and Faridat laugh) or should yourself all day.  Like it's just not going to work.

I want to hear more, too, about when you decided to leave.

[Faridat Arogundade]

You know what, guys? It took me so long. I had it on my heart to like create my fashion.

I've been a friend for a long time, like years. But I was I was always moving the goalposts. Let me save this much. Let me do this. Let me- And next thing you know, you're kind of always pushing it out.

But for me, the trigger was coaching. I honestly don't know if I would have left had I not done the coaching, because I mean, she really pushed me to interrogate my own limiting beliefs. 

A lot of lawyers are risk averse. And I actually think going to law school, working in big law, it really doubles down on that. I used to be much riskier. Right?

[Kate Bridal]

Ooo, interesting. Yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I'm like, where's the girl who was like emailing Nike and, you know, entertainment, PR firms and getting jobs? That's how I used to be.

That risk taking ability that you have. I think it just gets smaller in this environment. And so I just kept changing.

Oh, I'll just get the next bonus. I'll just do this. You know, I was always changing things.

And my coach really drilled down. She's like, look. She also highlighted for me my past accomplishments, because I think sometimes we can forget what we've already done.

Oh, yeah. And when she started to highlight it for me, I was like, damn! (Kate and Rhia laugh) You're right! Actually, I am that girl, right?

Like, I actually have done a lot of things. Yeah, I can do whatever I want. I know I can put my mind to it and actually accomplish it.

And that's when it just something triggered for me. But it was through the coaching. I think if I hadn't done the coaching, I would probably be- still be in big law today.

And of course, like the little risk averse part of me is like, look, if I had to go back to a firm where I had to go do a legal job, I know I could do it. Right? So it's like, well, I might as well try it.

Obviously, I'm in a much different position, right, than someone who just graduated. But I felt like I have all these safety nets now that I've built in my life that I can do this. You know, I can really take this risk.

And I think the other thing, too, that's like really important for people to remember, and I always remind my mentees of this, like you've done a great job. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to achieve X, Y and Z.

Just you existing. It's enough, right? Whatever you want to do, it's enough.

Look, I don't have to look at my big law career as a failure because I didn't get some title of partner or whatever, right? 

[Kate Bridal]

God, no.

[Faridat Arogundade]

And I think that's really important because people tend to think they are, you know, I think they internalize some of that negative message. The truth is, there's nothing I didn't do.

You don't have to hit some metric that someone else decided is the metric. You should decide for yourself if you feel like you've gotten what you needed, you've gotten what you wanted, you know, that's enough.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Well, and the law is so big on award achievement, accolade, dinners, celebration, pat on the back, whatever. All of it- bonus, whatever.

Even in nonprofit spaces, there are these awards and there are accolades. So I just think that the messaging that gets shoved down your throat everywhere in the law is that like achievements that other people can see are what matter.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Right.

[Kate Bridal]

And achievements that make more money and make the firm look good or whatever, the organization look good, are the ones that matter.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

Did you feel when you left that you kind of didn't…? It sounds like you already had your dream of the fashion line. But like, did you feel like you'd gotten away from yourself and what you wanted and were just kind of running after these achievements that other people were telling you that you wanted?

[Faridat Arogundade]

I definitely did. And I think one way for me that sort of highlights it is like when I look at pictures, I'm like, who is that? Who is she?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Who IS SHE?!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Like, it wasn't me, right? Who's that? Because I didn't recognize that.

[Kate Bridal]

That was how I felt when I burned out, I was like, I'm not myself anymore!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

And you see it! Because the truth is, right, like, first of all, my body's getting wrecked. I mean, I was working every single day. I was working hard and I gave all of myself to work.

I wasn't even doing anything for me. I wasn't getting my hair done. I wasn't getting my nails done. I wasn't doing the things that I love to do. You know, I wasn't myself. 

And I was kind of doing these things for a number of reasons, right? Like, again, you know, I'm from a Nigerian family. It's very much like doctor, lawyer, engineer. You know, those are the careers.

And I'm sort of doing the thing. There were some good parts, but the reality was it wasn't necessarily for me. It wasn't my dream.

Whereas now I feel like no matter what I do, like I still do some legal work. And that's fine because it's on my terms and it's what I want to be doing. I'm actually- instead of having to deal with, you know, the big banks every day, I'm talking to women who are creating their own P firms, right, women in Africa who are creating companies. They're looking for financing.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, love.

[Faridat Arogundade]

That's great. Right. Like that energizes me.

So it's like if I can do it on my terms, fine. But if it's not on my terms, I don't even want it anymore. Right?

Because I'm creating a new life for myself that for me has to everything has to kind of align. You know, I would always hear from people like, “I don't get it, though. Like, you were always working. You were you're so good at it.” 

I'm like, just because I'm good at it doesn't mean I have to do it. I'm good at a lot of things.

Right, guys?

[Kate Bridal]

There she is. 

[Rhia Batchelder] 

Yes!

[Faridat Arogundade]

(Laughing-

Don’t get confused. Like there are a lot of things I'm great at. But, you know, I don't have to do it. 

And so I am always encouraging people like really lean into who you want to be and what you want your life to look like, because it's never too late to change gears. Because I hear so many people be like, well, I've been doing it for so long, I've been doing it so well.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh yeah, constantly. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

If you start something new today-

[Kate Bridal]

So you've been accumulating a lot of skills that you can use in other things!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Exactly! And it's also like if you've been a lawyer for 10 years and then today you decide you want to do something else in 15 years, you would have been doing that thing longer than you would have been a lawyer. Right.

So I think people kind of like let go of some of that, like sum cost fallacy and really just get in touch with themselves. But it's hard, right? Because it's hard work.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It is hard. This is exactly why I wanted to do coaching, because it's like helping you see the limiting beliefs, then helping someone question, is that true or am I trapping myself? Because I trap myself for a long time, too. And it's not a personal failure.

[Kate Bridal]

No.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Like we are taught to think in these ways, like we've talked about a lot on this episode. Sometimes it just takes having someone else be like, is that true? Tell me what like the worst case scenario of leaving could be.

And then you start to think through it. And I have the same realization of like, wow, you're never going to lose that skill set just because you're choosing to go out there and try something else. 

I do think a lot of people struggle with that fear. And it makes sense.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, for sure.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's really, really tough, like you said, to do. But it's possible. It really is.

[Faridat Arogundade]

There were times I would tell my coach, like, OK, literally next session, I want you to follow up with me because, you know, I'm smart. I can make excuses… (All laugh) and I can twist anything!

[Kate Bridal]

I can talk myself out of anything that I want to, thank you very much!

[Rhia Batchelder]

The thing is, I'm an attorney, I can argue my way out of this situation!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Exactly.

So it's really important to have someone else to hold you accountable. And I think that honestly, anecdotally, people have pointed out that a lot of Black women who are in these kind of like law or bankers, you see that, I don't know, their marriage rates are lower, let's say, than other groups. 

And I was thinking we were talking earlier, right, about how for the white men, it's OK for them to work 24/7. And I think if you even look at dating… You know, I love the soft life girlies or whatever, but they always talk about how they'll be they'll post some guy who's a finance bro. Like, “Oh, he works so hard. That's so amazing.”

What do you see posting a woman talking about…

[Kate Bridal]

Oooooo!

[Faridat Arogundade]

“Oh, I love that she's working 24 seven. This is who I want to be with.”

No, because the way society is still structured, we're supposed to still be doing all this other stuff, right? Like taking care of others. Doing housework, things like that. If you actually lean into that kind of career, you're closing yourself off from some other things, potentially.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Because the truth is, people don't want women who work like that. If we're just talking like heterosexual relationships, they might not want women who make more than them, right?

Or who have a higher title. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, they don’t. They like to pretend like they do. I've been on many dates where I at first they're like, “Oh, lawyer, that's cool. Like, what do you do? You know, work with like children?”

(Kate and Faridat laugh)

 They are still assuming that. And I'm like, “No. The case I was on, you know, that was like a two point eight billion dollar deal that was like being disputed after.” And they're like…

[Kate Bridal]

(Oafishly and sheepishly)

Huh?

[Rhia Batchelder]

“What? How much do you make? Where do you work?” They like start like ana- You see in their brains start going.

They're like, “She's smarter than me-“

[Kate Bridal] 

And then their phone goes off and they're like, “I have an emergency.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

(Laughing) 

Yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

(Laughing)

Yeah, “I gotta go.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

Well, they just like ghost you. Yeah, it's like they start like spinning and you watch it like, oh, she's smarter than me. She makes more than me. She has a more prestigious job than me. She's more important than me. 

And even men who call themselves feminists who say, “I love like a powerful woman…” In that environment, it's like their ego is so threatened. And I think this is like why the lean in advice is often bullshit, because it's like in this culture, like in this world, what do you mean? Because it's not possible for us to do it all.

It really is not. If you want to have a career, you do have to work harder to prove yourself as a woman, even more so as a woman of color. So there's that.

But you're also expected and judged and criticized by culture if you do not have children early, if you are not in a partnership that looks like a marriage, if you don't have like a big group of friends, if you're not hosting. Like the expectation, if you go on social media, it's like you have, you know, these beautiful table scapes and have girls nights all the time. Oh, and you're making food for everyone. 

Who has the time for all of that? No one.

[Kate Bridal]

No.

[Rhia Batchelder]

 It's not possible. It's really not possible.

So I think breaking that down for people, too, and like young women of don't aim for that. That's not what your life is going to look like. You cannot do all of those things at once. Oh, and like do it beautiful. Do it beautiful.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, and do it in heels, please, if you would. No, I love- Gen Z is like, fuck heels. They're like no, no heels anymore ever.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I mean, good for them.

[Kate Bridal]

I know.

[Faridat Arogundade]

 And I'm glad that Gen Z's even combating some of these beauty standards. 

When I started working and I think any person of color or any marginalized person has to do this. But when you get to an organization, you have to immediately start figuring out who's powerful, who's who's got the juice, what's going on. You have to kind of be watching everything.

And I sort of noticed I picked up like, wait, I'm not getting as many deals or assignments as like this other woman, kind of a mid-level associate. He was a male, but he pulled me aside. He was like, “Listen, she's cute. She's petite. Everybody wants to flirt with her. So like she's getting the deals and you're not.”

I was like, well, fuck that. Right?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Of course, like I, although I was terrified, I was like shaking. I did speak up about it. And literally I spoke to a partner about it, not about her, but just saying, like, “Oh, I know it's I'm not getting enough staffing.”

That night I had three new deals. Would I have gotten those three deals if I hadn't spoken up? That kind of honestly changed the trajectory of my career, right?

Because what ends up happening is over time, if she's getting all the work and I'm not, our skill levels are going to…

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

We're going to have major gaps. Then nobody's going to want to work with me because I'm not going to be as experienced. These kind of little things, I'm like, OK, I'm here. I'm I'm Black. I'm Nigerian. I'm plus size. I mean, you know what I mean? It's like mark, mark, mark.

Like, and I'm trying to combat all of that. Right. And also still learn and also still like sleep and take care of myself. I mean, it's it's impossible. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And it's just so shitty. It's another way that women get pitted against each other-

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

-and get socialized to compete with each other.

[Rhia Batchelder]

True.

[Kate Bridal] 

Actually, I just sent Rhia a voice memo the other day because I was listening to one of our episodes, and we compliment each other a lot.

And I was like, A, I love how much we compliment each other. But B, I love the way we take compliments because she'll compliment me and I'll just be like, “Thank you.” Or I'll say something nice about her and she's like, “Yeah, you're right.” 

(Rhia laughs) 

And I was like, I just love that we're modeling that dynamic for other women that A, you're allowed to get along with each other. Because I mean, I fell victim to that, definitely.

I- the kids are calling them pick me girls, I guess. That's what I've learned. 

(Rhia and Faridat laugh)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Kate. OK, boomer.

[Kate Bridal]

Exactly. But I was like, I was that girl who like all the dudes were like, “Oh, you're not like the other girls. Oh, you like video games. You're cool. You know, you can take a joke. You're cool.”

You know, swallowing a lot of crap because I was like, “Oh, yeah, I'm the cool girl.”

[Faridat Arogundade]

I'm like, don't get confused. I'm like the other girl. So…

[Kate Bridal] 

Yeah, but it's like there's nothing wrong with the other girl! Like that's such bullshit! Like there's- one is not better than the other or superior to the other. But we get fed all of these narratives about what kind of woman is better.

And then you see like that, quote unquote, kind of woman being rewarded or another woman being rewarded for her looks. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

And like, how do you not feel hostile toward that woman when you're the woman getting overlooked? It's hard, but it's not necessarily her fault.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, totally. I noticed that when I was interviewing and I had a friend, she was like louder and taller and I was like very thin and petite. But I got so many offers from like almost every single firm I went into.

And it's like, listen, sure, I'm smart. I'm good at interviewing… She and I have the same skill set.

[Kate Bridal]

Right. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

What's going on here? 

[Kate Bridal]

Well, and then you're getting questioned about whether it is about your competency and your ability.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah, that gets that gets put on you. Right?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Well, that happened a lot.

“You're hot. Like you're- that's why” I've gotten that comment to my face so many times from people we went to law school with. “That's why you got the job. That's why you're not working for that professor. That's why you got staffed on that.” I got told it directly to my face so many times.

But it's also like there is like a… pretty privilege is real. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

If you’re meeting like American conventional white beauty standards it's like people just feel more comfortable around you or something?

And then there's this like, I mean, not to be like complaining about being pretty, but I had this whole crisis later in my life of being like, “People like me because I'm a size two.” Like that is real. I know that's true.

[Kate Bridal]

I had the same thing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, it's just like a fucking shit show out there for all women. 

(Kate laughs.)

[Faridat Arogundade]

No it really is.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Like what a nightmare to navigate, because it's real. And then you're trying to be on the same team when you are seeing these like comparisons happen and like people being treated differently because of the way they look or the way they talk or they're like the skin, their skin color.

Like those things are real.

[Kate Bridal]

It is real.

[Faridat Arogundade]

And I was so lucky to like, I didn't end up going into a competition with her, right? 

[Kate Bridal]

Good, yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Because I'm like, this isn't about her. It's not like she's going and getting staffing and saying, “Oh, don't staff Faridat,” right? This is actually a function of our society. 

I've been through this so many times, you know, being that person who did grow up, you know, plus size and this and that. OK, you have an accent. You don't, you know, I'm- I always tell people like I used to sit in front of the TV and watch Beverly Hills 90210, the original.

‘Cause I'm like, OK, I got to get my this accent, you know, like my voice. 

[Kate Bridal]

Wow, yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Because you have to kind of be palatable to people. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow.

[Faridat Arogundade]

And that's real. Like what you were speaking on. People need to feel comfortable around you. And it sucks.

Like you have to really change so many things about yourself. It sucks. It sucks for the person who is accepted, and it sucks for the person who isn't. It's super stressful. I just you have the imposter syndrome a little bit.

You have just I don't think they're going to accept me. And so a lot of times I would hold back. And I was I'm actually super thankful I did have some white males, actually, partners who did end up mentoring and sponsoring me. But I remember at first they would invite me to a kind thing and I'd be like, no, right? Because I didn't feel like necessarily, you know, do I belong in that space? Or whatever.

And so it's just a lot of that stuff you really have to unlearn because I'm like, wait, I wasn't like that before. But going to UChicago, getting into these environments like UChicago was competitive. Like…

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh God.

[Kate Bridal]

Your stories are cray-zy.

[Rhia Batchelder]

People, you don't even know. The gunners, the intensity of these people. It was so- it was like every everything was life or death. Everything.

[Kate Bridal]

Cornell sounds like a fucking vacation in comparison to UChicago, I gotta be real. 

Yeah. Chicago was like a special, uniqe place, I think.

[Faridat Arogundade]

It’s a special snowflake. So insular. And Chicago is such a weird place to you, like with the weird rules, like, oh, you know, internet in the classrooms. Like there's so much going on.

[Kate Bridal]

Excuse me? Like they just make you do everything old school because they're like, we had to do this in the library, and so you have to…? 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Well, they're like, they want you paying attention. It was just like-

[Faridat Arogundade]

They want paying attention. Yeah, isn’t that crazy?

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, oh, oh. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

You need you need to be engaged.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I learned that Prince was dead in my crim law class (Faridat laughs) because someone in front of me was on the internet and turned around and told me. So, you know….

[Rhia Batchelder]

Well, it was also such an intense environment. If you could get cold called and not be paying attention like that would be really…

[Faridat Arogundade]

I know with everyone staring at you.

Obviously, this is like low-key not good. BUT I would almost never get cold called because they didn't know how to say my name.

(Faridat and Kate laugh, Rhia gasps)

So if I got cold called once in a quarter like that, it was never more than once. Nobody wanted to say my name. And I knew when I was about to be called because they'd be like, “Miss- uh…”

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh my god.

[Faridat Arogundade]

And I was like, OK, let me let me. I have a few minutes. And it's like, so from that perspective, I liked it.

But when you think about it, it's like, wait, I'm actually missing part of the experience because these professors don't want to engage with me because of my differences. Right. So like, right.

That's kind of how it's all this micro stuff. But when you look at it, it all stacks together and adds up. It's like, shit, this is a lot of crap that I have to deal with. 

[Kate Bridal]

Wow. That’s so interesting.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, that's something I didn't even think about. Like not having them even cold call you because… it is terrible. It's horrible.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It built the skill of being able to be on the spot and speaking like and doing public speaking, working through your fear, taking up space, saying your thoughts out loud, even when you're not 100 percent certain. Those are the skill sets that are built by cold calling. And those are all things that I am currently using right now in this moment.

And you're right. It's like if I hadn't been pushed in that way consistently, would I even be comfortable doing this?

[Faridat Arogundade]

And that's why I had to learn that on the job, because I didn't get it in law school. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yeah.

[Faridat Arogundade]

And so it's kind of interesting when you look back, if I had maybe more of that cold call experience, right, maybe it would have built quicker, it would have built differently. I didn't get it because people did not want to say my name.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And so it's like not only are you dealing with a microaggression, you're dealing with having to teach yourself a skill set on top of performing higher than everyone else, on top of the masking and code switching, on top of the like scanning the room, like doing that kind of power and threat perception that you've mentioned several times. It's like that is just too much. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And it's so interesting the way that we make it on… We put it on Black women to overcome and get the roles and be the example instead of interrogating the society that's doing this to people like.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah. And I have a lot of white male friends. Not a lot, but I've got a few from-

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow.

(Rhia and Faridat laugh)

[Faridat Arogundade]

I was like, hold on, hold on! But they’re actually from working in law firms.

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing)

I like that as the turnaround of like the “I have Black friends thing,” that you're like, “I have white male friends, okay guys?!” (Faridat and Rhia laugh) “I know white men. I know- I have white men in my life who I talk to, okay?”

[Rhia Batchelder]

I don't, so… (Faridat and Kate laugh) I have one.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I only met them in big law. I only met them in big law. But you know, sometimes like I don't know what your experience is, but sometimes when I tell them some of these things, they either dismiss it…

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, yeah. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

They try to put that toxic positivity on it. Like, “Oh, but you're so great,” or like, “But you got this or you did this.”

And I'm like, OK, but I'm actually talking to you about this issue. So let's not gloss over it and move on to something else or try to explain it away. I'm like, no, you need to go deeper like I'm going deeper on this point because you're missing it.mBy being like, oh, well, it all worked out. You're doing well. 

Yes, but we need to talk about these things because it's not just the result. It's me overcoming these things or me dealing with these things. How, you know, that's actually the story.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. And it's like they're missing you, too, in that moment. This is why I'm not friends with white men (Kate and Faridat laugh) because they can't do this for the most part. I'm serious.

I used to be the type of girl that was like more pick me like, “Oh, it's fine. Yeah, whatever.” I'm not anymore.

I'm like, this is incredibly serious to me. If you cannot have these conversations and understand these perspectives and interrogate your privilege and understand what it's like, put yourself in my shoes, have real empathy, you're not my friend.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Right.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I actually had a falling out with someone. I was talking to this guy friend. I was talking about this other woman. She and I are both pretty direct. We're New Yorkers together. 

And there was this one moment in my big law journey where like this one person would not listen to me. And so I just got a little stern. But I was like being actively disrespected as a leader because I was a woman. It was very obvious to me.

And then I got a talking to about that, which was crazy because that was like the only behavior or only leadership I got from the men that I worked with, ever. And so it was like… (Kate sighs) What? You know, like I am mostly deferential, mostly thoughtful, mostly empathetic. In one moment, I was frustrated. I was a little stern about like, hey, I need you to respect what I'm saying. And I got that feedback.

And I was talking about there is a lot of research out there on how women are viewed more negatively when they are assertive and like exhibiting these leadership qualities. 

And we were having this conversation and he was like, “Well, I've been called aggressive at work.” And we're like, “Because you are.” (Kate and Faridat laugh) Like you are, objectively-

[Kate Bridal]

And that was accurate.

[Rhia Batchelder]

-a very aggressive person, because he is! And like no hate, no shade. Like you are successful. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

But like that's that's like facts.

When we're getting that criticism, it's because we're like at a two where you would get to operate at an eight and you're called when you get to attend. And so if I go above a two, then I'm aggressive. 

We're trying to explain that to him, and he was cutting me off. And I was like, “This is my work. You know, like this is a lot of like this is what I talk about. This is what I do. And you're speaking over me and not willing to see my perspective. And therefore we're not friends anymore.”

I like tried to have a conversation with him about it. And I just felt like I wasn't being heard. And I was like, that's it. I'm just tired of this shit.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I'm glad you stood on business about it, though, because, you know, it's so important. I have gotten that same feedback like I've had so many times.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, I'm sure.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Because, you know, I'm working. I'm trying really hard. I'm being super nice.

But at the end of the day, as a manager, as a supervisor with people you're managing, I'm like, look, we got to get stuff done. And so whenever I've had that point where, you know, you break whatever a little bit and yeah, you might get more started. I've gotten the same feedback.

I had one partner one time say to me a white male partner, he's like, “You need to inspire the juniors.” And I'm like, dude, first of all, you're not inspiring me.

(Kate and Rhia laugh)

Why don't you start by you inspiring? You have not inspired anything in me.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You first. You first.

[Kate Bridal]

Inspire me to inspire them, how about that?

[Faridat Arogundade]

Right. Leadership starts at the top. So why don't you do it? And then I'll go inspire someone.

(Kate laughs)

But also, number two, like, why are you asking me to coddle? Because in Black spaces, we talk a lot about this white male junior issue. Black women are having issues with white male juniors and then not respecting them.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow.

[Faridat Arogundade]

And then you take these male juniors, they go work for someone else. All of a sudden, it's, oh, you know, “Thanks, bro. Like, I'm going to do this, whatever.” And they're going to follow the instruction. But then when it comes to me, they're questioning me.

They're pushing back. I'm like, dude, I'm like eight years ahead of you. I'm telling you this is what we're doing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Which is crazy in big law. Crazy to do that. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, that's insane.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's crazy to question hierarchy in a big law environment. So the fact that that's happening to you, I just want everyone to understand.

[Faridat Arogundade]

But it’s okay if it’s me, right?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Egregious, egregious. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's crazy. Like they feel comfortable doing that.

And, you know, women, Black women, we get painted with the, “Oh, she's a bitch.” Right? Or she's this or whatever.

And I'm like, no, I'm actually much nicer than these other male supervisors. But you're giving them a certain level of automatic respect because they're men. And what you're coming to me with is automatic disrespect because I'm a Black woman and you just don't respect me on a human level.

So you're not going to respect me as your supervisor. You're not going to take me seriously.

I shouldn't have to go get a partner to back me up so that a junior does my assignment.

[Kate Bridal and Rhia Batchelder]

No.

[Faridat Arogundade]

It's nonsense. That's why I'm like, to be a black woman, senior or partner, whatever, in big law, it's stressful. Like it's not an easy job.

It's hard. You have to fight every day.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. And the expectation is… Like the leadership style in law is complicated because it is very there's so much that needs to happen at such a high level and such a short amount of time.

[Kate Bridal]

Right. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

So everyone is really stressed and the pressure is so intense from your clients too. And like there's so much money on the line. Things are just stern and like very formal. But it's like you're not allowed to use that toolkit because if you do it, it's aggressive. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And so what are you left with? Because then when you're nice, they're walking all over you. They're pushing back.

And it's like there's no real way to win and get the productivity and respect you need from people without like you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. Like there's always going to be some sort of criticism of your behavior. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Completely agree.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, I do wanna-

[Rhia Batchelder]

(Simultaneously)

I want to hear about- Sorry, go ahead, Kate. 

[Kate Bridal]

No, no, no, no. I was just going to ask more about the brand and the fashion and the journey.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's what I was going to say.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Faridat Arogundade]

You know, it's kind of funny because I actually think the reason I'm creating my brand is for a lot of the same reasons we've talked about. 

As a plus size woman, you know, you're always kind of excluded. I never even go shopping in person. Most stores, even if a brand carries plus size, a lot of times they won't put it in the store. So you kind of always feel like these spaces are not welcoming.

When I look at the higher end, the luxury, that ready to wear space, you don't see these designers creating plus size clothing, right? Like if you're a bigger person, you could buy a bag, you could buy a shoe, not a boot, right? But you could buy like a shoe.

But you can't buy the clothes. You're never going to see that Chanel dress in a size 20. A lot of what's available for plus size bodies is actually fast fashion.

Dressing for big law has been such a nightmare, because…

[Kate Bridal]

I was just going to ask about that! (Faridat laughs) Because the expectations and the people around you and the label whoring that goes on like has to be…

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah, and I couldn't fit into it. Like I would have to buy these big cardigans because a lot of what I used to wear, honestly, was like ASOS because they were one of the only places where they were making the clothes that were in the bigger sizes. But it's- it's fast fashion, right? So it's all see through. I'm like, OK, I'm not going to the club. I'm trying to go to work.

So then I can't even look the way I want to look, right? That's what it comes down to, because the truth is part of our confidence and part of being who we are is reflected in the way we're showing up. I want to look a certain way.

I want to wear a certain type of clothing, but it's not available. So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to just make it because I know that there are a lot of people who want to feel good.

You know, whatever size you are, you should be able to have tons of options. And the truth is at that size of like, you know, 16 to 22, 24, there aren't that many options and there aren't that many options of quality. I want to be another option.

So I'm like creating my brand for people who want quality things, right? Something that's not going to I might sell stuff. It's like one wear, two wears. And next thing you know, it's ripped up. 

You know, there are more brands offering plus size options, which is great. But there should be even more, because frankly, the studies have shown that a lot of people actually admit to plus size anyway.

That's basically the ethos of why I created my brand. You know, the name Ifemi it’s a Yoruba- it’s actually two words, but it means “my love.” 

[Kate Bridal and Rhia Batchelder]

Aw!

[Faridat Arogundade]

And, you know, my brand's all about romance, love, not necessarily with a romantic partner, but just, you know, embodying that spirit of love and confidence and security and feeling good about yourself.

We look in the mirror first, right? Before you go out, before you do anything, you're kind of with yourself first. So I want people to, you know, people who look like me and who have bigger bodies to really feel good when you look in the mirror and when you go out and present yourself and have that confidence. 

So I'm super excited, I'm hoping to launch later this year. But I'm taking my time with it, because I want to make sure it's quality, you know, that's my big thing. It has to be really well made, because that's what I think is actually missing on the market. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

We're so excited for you.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

She's living her dream.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I am!

[Rhia Batchelder]

She's living her dream and I agree. This is such an important thing to address and talk about. And I just love that you're bringing luxury and quality and sexy chicness to women who are normally excluded from having those things. So that makes me so happy for you. 

What are you most excited about for owning your own business? 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Honestly, I just can't wait to see people in the clothes. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah!

[Faridat Arogundade]

You know, it's not about being in some magazine or being in this place. It's about speaking to people like me, because these other places, they're not built for us. You don't need to beg to be included.

We don't need to ask, like, you know, Valentino to go make the dress. We can just make our dresses, honestly. And they can make the dresses that they want to make.

For me, it also translates with Raw, right? Like, I'm not going to beg these firms to give me a seat at the table. I'm just going to go make my own table then, and they can do what they want and I'm going to do what I want. 

So I love that, I feel like we're in a time now where people are just really creating things and feeling more empowered, and it's more accessible now than ever to do something. So I'm super excited. 

Like, I'm learning so much. I'm taking a fashion class. It's great.

[Kate Bridal]

Ooo that’s so exciting!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, that's so fun. If you're listening, go follow the brand on social media. Support. the handle will be in the show notes so that you can just click and go over there.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yay! Yes. Everyone join my little community.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes! Because it's so important for a bajillion reasons. But one of the things that I think is applicable, no matter what you want to do in this world is if you are not welcome in a certain environment, if you are being judged for being yourself in a certain environment, you don't have to stay there.

[Kate Bridal]

No.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, you can go find a place where you're truly able to thrive. And hopefully the people with more privilege will be fighting to make those places more inclusive and eventually…

[Kate Bridal] 

That's the thing, 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right? Like, it cannot be the solution that just Black people have to, like, go off and do their own thing.

But in the meantime, you don't have to suffer through it. I think this is going to be so successful for you. So I just cannot wait to watch it.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I appreciate it. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's going to be so cool. 

I have one more question: If you could give advice to people who are running organizations, to leaders about how to make things more inclusive, like, what would you say? What do you think? Where do you think is the place to start?

[Faridat Arogundade]

So there are so many things, but I'm going to say one thing I think is really important. And we touched on this earlier, but non-diverse people have to completely be committed and involved and leaning into it. And what I've noticed so much in corporate America, big law firms and even jobs I've had before, the diversity things, it'll be like, oh, we're going to make space for the diverse people to go to that event.

And then all the white people and the white men are doing something else. No, they should also be at the event. As a matter of fact, they need to be at the event more than the diverse people do because they actually need to hear the things that are being said at the event.

But they see that as an other activity. “Oh, that's for you guys. That's a space for y'all. We're going to be over here and we're going to let you have the space.” But they think that's enough. But the truth is they need to hear more.

The Black woman doesn't need to hear that there's microaggressions in the workplace. She already knows that. The white male sneed to sit there and actually listen and say, “Oh, I didn't realize that was a microaggression. Oh, I didn't know that could be interpreted this way.” They actually need to really commit and lean in. And I don't see that happening, especially in big law.

I saw a lot of, “Oh, we'll let you guys have your events.” But then all the white people felt like that wasn't, they weren't, they couldn't go to that space or they couldn't be around it. They couldn't listen to it.

But they really have to because (laughing) the 10 Black people at a big law firm are not going to be able to create systemic change. When I hear things from heads of firms like “we're running a meritocracy,” I can tell they're not listening. So everyone needs to buy in and they need to be attending these diversity events.

I would say that to an organization. Don't see that as an activity for that group. See it as you should be there as well. And you should be open and listening and wanting to learn. I've heard so many stories about the executive kind of C-level going to these events and then being combative. That's not the right attitude, right?

Like you should be there listening and learning and not there to be defensive.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, because I was going to say, I wonder how much of that is discomfort at the idea of A, encroaching on the space, but B, hearing shit about yourself and your behavior that is uncomfortable.

[Faridat Arogundade]

People don't want to be called out.

[Kate Bridal]

It's hard. It sucks. Like, you know, to think about those behaviors.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right.

[Kate Bridal]

I mean, when I was reading the book that I mentioned earlier, like she was talking about, you know, microaggressions from like a friend of hers. And I was like, “Shit, I've said stuff,” not that exact thing, but I've put my foot in my mouth and said something like that to like a friend. And that sucks to realize that you have been that person.

But it's necessary to stop being that person. And so you don't cause harm. It does cause harm and it causes exhaustion and burnout and all of those things, among other people.

So it's uncomfortable, but it's necessary. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Check the ego at the door. Right. It is uncomfortable. I think Kate and I have both had- We've talked about this privately, like we've had reckonings of understanding, “Wow, I thought I was like this great feminist and I didn't understand how to be an intersectional about it. I've said X, Y, Z, and that was wrong and fucking embarrassing.” And that is uncomfortable to reckon with. 

Oh my God. Just like the lack of education and the way that like shapes your view. Anyways, but just being open is challenging, especially I think for people who consider themselves very, very smart. But I think to your point, it's like, we don't know everything and we can't know someone else's lived experience unless we are in the room listening and shutting the fuck up.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

If it's uncomfortable, it's because it applies to you. 

[Kate Bridal]

And that means you look in the mirror. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Go sit with that, with your therapist, work out your feelings of discomfort and grow from it.

And what I had to do was like, I paid so many black women educators and I would just sit in those rooms and I would have little meltdowns after being like, “Oh my God, am I a bad person?” And then you're like, well, suck it up and like keep learning because otherwise you're just gonna keep being an embarrassing white feminist. But yeah, I would have said stuff like about the legal world too.

Like, “Oh, the Supreme Court,” and just like having some reverence for these institutions because I was not taking into account all of these other things and the way that our systems are oppressive and why I felt okay in certain places and like I would be brought up and maybe the American dream was real for me. And yeah. 

[Kate Bridal]

Girl, my dad was a cop.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Exactly. 

[Kate Bridal]

I was like, “Just be polite. Like what's wrong?”

[Faridat Arogundade]

Right.

[Kate Bridal]

Like, you know, I grew up feeling so safe around law enforcement. It took a long- longer than I am happy that it took me to undo that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, right.

[Kate Bridal]

And to stop taking it personally about- like that it was about my dad-

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yeah!

[Kate Bridal]

-when people were criticizing law enforcement, which is so stupid. But like, you know, that is where I was and in my grief and all of that crap too that was tangled up in it.

But like, I said embarrassing shit about that topic.

[Faridat Arogundade]

This reminds me of my friend who, I think she's gonna listen to this. So no shade girl, but she really loves the royal family and Queen Elizabeth. And I'm like, sis, I'm from a country that was like colonized (All laugh) But like, you know what I mean?

And so, and it's not coming from a bad place, but it's like, these are the things you have to keep in mind, right? She'll be talking about Queen Elizabeth and I'm like, I'm like this woman who's responsible for all these deaths. What do you mean?

Her institution, her family have literally changed the course of so many countries. What do you?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Like pillaged.

[Faridat Arogundade]

She's like, “Well, she was a woman leader,” and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. 

You know, but this is like that white feminism though that you guys are talking about, right?

Because I'm like, if you can only, if you can see Queen Elizabeth, but all you can talk about is that she was a woman leader, you're ignoring a lot of stuff because I guess it doesn't like impact you, right? But it actually impacts a lot of other women and people of color, right? So just, it's like, these are the kinds of things that like people gotta start unpacking some of this, honestly.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, because then you hear that and you're like, “Oh cool, this person doesn't fully understand my experience.”

[Faridat Arogundade]

Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I mean, that's how I feel when I talk to men who like belittle my feelings about patriarchy. It's like, it's terrible.

[Kate Bridal]

Especially when it's someone you're close to and you don't expect to come out of. Like that's always the worst when you're like, you?

[Faridat Arogundade]

I know, it's hard. But you know, the truth is everyone's on their journeys and a lot of people like, frankly, don't have high emotional intelligence. So they're not really gonna be able to get it until it's something that maybe they're personally impacted by, unfortunately, but that's just where most people are.

[Kate Bridal]

That's how humans work. That's why we have to forgive ourselves when we have those awakenings because it's like, you didn't know to think about it until you knew to think about it, right? 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Right.

[Kate Bridal]

So once you do know, fucking work on it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, grow up and like interrogate these things. I had to have that conversation with myself. Yes, there was compassion, but it was also like, grow up, be uncomfortable.

Look at what other people are experiencing. You can handle that. Because otherwise our Black colleagues are continuing to suffer in silence and like be pushed out and burning out and feeling like they can't be themselves.

Make these spaces feel like people can be themselves. And that is really on us. 

[Faridat Arogundade]

Right.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

[Faridat Arogundade]

Thank you for having me! This was so much fun!

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely.

[Rhia Batchelder] 

It really was.

[Faridat Arogundade]

I should come on again sometime because I just like chatting with you guys is so much fun, y'all, so.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh my God, no, we'd love to have you back! Like after the launch, I think it would be cool to check back and see like how that’s going!

[Faridat Arogundade]

Oh my God, yeah, that would be fun!

[Kate Bridal]

It think that’d be amazing!

[Rhia Batchelder]

That would be so fun. Please keep us updated on how to help you. Obviously when you launch, I'll post your stuff.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Faridat Arogundade]

No, thank you guys so much. And I really loved it. I'm so glad you guys have this platform and you're giving space to these issues because they're so important.

So I love it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. 

[Kate Bridal]

Aw, thank you so much. 

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.