[Rhia Batchelder]

I research a lot.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

What is your thing right now?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yesterday, I was researching why I was so tired because of where I was in my hormonal cycle, and I learned a lot.

[Kate Bridal]

She sent me this audio message, and she was like, “I'm so exhausted. I'm so tired. I can't- So I did some research.” 

And I was like, “That's the most Rhia thing to say. “I'm so brain dead and exhausted that I did research...”

[Rhia Batchelder]

I just like it. 

(Patrick laughs)

[Kate Bridal]

“…to find out why I was so brain dead and exhausted.”

[Patrick Patino]

Did you get what you were looking for?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I did. There's like literal scientific reason for exactly where I was, why I felt exhausted, and my brain wasn't firing, and I didn't want to socialize. 

So like a woman's cycle is 28 days, and your energy levels are different on each day, depending on the intersection between various hormones, and men don't have that. They have a 24-hour clock. 

So capitalism works very, very well for men because they typically, like they wake up, their energy is at the highest. Around 5 p.m., starts to dip, time to chill. You guys go through that cycle every day.

It's like perfect for going to work. We do not experience that.

[Kate Bridal]

I never knew that. Wow.

[Rhia Batchelder]

See, that's what research can get you. (Kate and Rhia laugh.) I'm like, oh, there's scientific reasons why I feel tired, or like I just want to like bake 17 baked potatoes today.

[Patrick Patino]

What's your favorite baked potato topping?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Just one?

(Patrick laughs)

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, this is the thing, like, they interact.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, like I'm kind of stressed about this question.

[Patrick Patino]

Well, look… (Laughing) She's like, “I better nail this. I bet if I don't nail this…”

[Kate Bridal]

The pressure is on.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, I just take food very seriously. 

Introduction

[Kate Bridal]

I’m Kate Bridal, a former nonprofit attorney who never cared that much for the law.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I’m Rhia Batchelder, a former Biglaw attorney who loves it, but has some suggestions.

[Kate Bridal] 

And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout, offer solutions, and try to keep it as real as possible. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 22

[Rhia Batchelder]

So cheese, like a sharp cheddar. A sharp cheddar has to be involved.

Like some chives for sure. A little red onion for me. I like the spiciness of a red onion and the crunch.

[Kate Bridal]

(Gasping) I've never tried that. That's amazing. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, yeah.

Maybe a little sour cream. And oh, I also really like to put salsa on my baked potatoes, but I put salsa on everything.

[Kate Bridal]

Patrick, what's yours? Since you asked the question, I feel like turnabout is fair play.

[Patrick Patino]

Does this say something about a person like your baked potato topping?

[Rhia Batchelder]

I don't think so. 

[Kate Bridal]

I think yes.

(Kate and Patrick laugh)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay, Kate says yes.

[Patrick Patino]

But my baked potato topping is probably butter…

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, butter. Fuck yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

Any kind of cheese, just cheese in general. Ranch dressing. 

[Kate Bridal]

Very Midwest, yes.

[Patrick Patino]

And bacon. I mean, that combo right there… I could eat that on repeat.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I think I'm making this baked potato tonight that I saw on TikTok yesterday. 

[Kate Bridal]

Fantastic. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's like, OK, so you roast a bunch of garlic. So you have like a shit ton of roasted garlic, like a lot, like too much.

[Kate Bridal]

No such thing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

So then you roast the garlic and you put butter, chives, feta, and the garlic inside the little baked potato. It looked- I don't know if it was just her presentation or what, but I've been thinking about this specific baked potato all day. I was just like mesmerized by this baked potato situation.

(Kate laughs)

[Patrick Patino]

Are we going to be robbed when AI makes that baked potato video and not a real person? Like, are we going to be able to tell that it's not a real potato?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Like it's not going to be a real potato? OK, yes. I wasn't even thinking about that. (Kate laughs) That's upsetting to me.

[Patrick Patino]

That's where we're going.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Fake food. I feel robbed by that. I feel not OK with that.

I'm not OK with that. I need to see the real food. I feel upset by that, honestly.

[Patrick Patino]

I can tell you're busy-

[Kate Bridal]

Way to start things off on a real…

[Rhia Batchelder]

What?! (Patrick and Kate laugh) I just did not think that through and that feels like really dystopian, but like specifically the food part. I don't know why.

[Patrick Patino]

Wow, you're going to have to wrap your mind around that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know. (Laughing) I'm going to be sitting here for the rest of the day like- 

[Kate Bridal]

She's going to be staring at the baked potato later just like, “What if this wasn't a real potato? Everything is cake.” Remember that those days?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes.

[Patrick Patino]

We just live in the Matrix. OK.

[Rhia Batchelder]

The AI stuff, I'm still not- 

[Kate Bridal]

It's pretty freaky.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It really is.

[Kate Bridal]

Patrick, do you want to do intro? I can do it. Whatever.

[Patrick Patino]

Sure, I can do it. Do you want me to just do my normal intro?

[Kate Bridal]

Sure, why not?

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, all mine is, is I say awesome and then I like launch into it.

[Kate Bridal]

Great, yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

My wife's like, “Don't you need like an intro jingle?” And I'm like, “No, I'm not that cool.”

[Kate Bridal]

We do have that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We have a jingle.

[Patrick Patino]

Because you guys are cool.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. 

[Kate Bridal]

We are. We're so cool.

[Patrick Patino]

I'll go for it. OK, well, awesome. Welcome to a very special crossover edition of The New Fingled Lawyer podcast.

I am pumped to have the Legal Burnouts- Are you the Legal Burnouts?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

You go, like, go by that?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

Like, you're actually The Legal Burnouts, Kate and Rhia?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, we burned out.

[Patrick Patino]

-with me. We're doing like a combo, a combo. So it's going to be part New Fangled, part Legal Burnouts podcast mashed up into one.

It's going to be like an awesome Usher… Who else is going to join us? Like Li’l Jon…

[Kate Bridal]

Alicia Keys.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Too Short. I'll be Too Short because I'm from the Bay Area.

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, who would be like our ideal- Like when they used to do like remixes? Like who is your ideal like remix add-on?

[Rhia Batchelder]

(Immediately) Too Short.

[Kate Bridal]

Too Short is the good one. You know, I always have to say Snoop because of the title of the podcast. 

[Patrick Patino]

Snoop Dogg?

[Kate Bridal]

We've had many people suggest Snoop should come on.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, I would die. 

[Kate Bridal]

I would also die.

He liked a comment I made on his LinkedIn post once. And I basically like my whole life after that point has been…

[Rhia Batchelder]

Kate.

[Patrick Patino]

You're basically best friends. 

[Kate Bridal]

Actually, he loved it. He held that button down- 

[Rhia Batchelder]

He went for the heart!

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) Or his representative on LinkedIn, more likely.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Do you think Snoop Dogg's on LinkedIn?

(All laugh)

[Patrick Patino]

I like to think so. Like he has notifications. 

[Kate Bridal]

Like me, he's obsessively scrolling like, “Oh my God, wait, another like!”

[Patrick Patino]

“Yes! Yes!” 

[Kate Bridal]

“I have to heart all of these or my engagement will be bad!”

[Rhia Batchelder]

All of my LinkedIn notifications are just. “Kate Bridal liked this, Kate Bridal commented on...”

[Patrick Patino]

Is it kind of like your mom being like your biggest cheerleader?

[Rhia Batchelder]

(Laughing) No, she's not commenting on my shit. I'm just like getting whatever she’s-

[Patrick Patino]

Oh, it's on everyone else's!

(Patrick and Kate laugh)

[Rhia Batchelder]

That’s how I found you, Patrick, because Kate is just going HAM on LinkedIn. (Laughing) She's going absolutely wild. And then I go on and I'm just getting, I'm like getting fed all these people from Kate.

And I'm like, “Thank you. Request, request, request…”

(Kate and Rhia laugh)

[Patrick Patino]

She is your algorithm.

[Rhia Batchelder]

She is my LinkedIn algorithm. 100%. And I think LinkedIn knows that I like it because I'll go to whoever she's interacting with. So they just keep it up. They're like, “This girl just wants to see what Kate's doing.”

[Patrick Patino]

“Here's some more suggestions. This is just what Kate wanted for you.” 

[Kate Bridal]

I’m glad. I'm so happy.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's really helping me out. I don't know. LinkedIn was hard for me to come back to after I left the law firm world.

[Patrick Patino]

So Rhia, why did you decide to become an attorney?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, god.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh wow. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

What a question.

[Kate Bridal]

Right into it. 

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah. I just, I just go for it. 

[Kate Bridal]

Smack you right across the face with the business.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I thought from the baked potato discussion, we were gonna to go in lighter.

(Kate laughs)

[Patrick Patino]

This informs everything.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I actually don't know. I started wanting to become a lawyer when I was really young, like seven or eight. My favorite movie at the time was Liar Liar. And I really think that had a lot to do with it.

[Patrick Patino]

With Jim Carrey?!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Jim Carrey is my- the love of my life. I actually know every single word to Liar Liar.

[Patrick Patino]

He's your muse? Jim Carrey's like…

(Kate and Rhia laugh)

[Rhia Batchelder]

I mean, I guess, yeah. I guess so. In a way.

[Kate Bridal]

Thank you, Jim Carrey. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, seriously. If I could talk to Jim Carrey… Jim Carrey, if you're listening, I love you so much. You don't even understand. 

(Rhia laughs)

[Kate Bridal]

Jim Carrey, call us.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I would literally marry him. So… (All laugh) Anyways, let's move on with this conversation…

[Patrick Patino]

Moving on, moving on.

[Rhia Batchelder]

So then I like started taking government classes and I was like, “Oh, intellectually, I really love this.” So I just really intellectually love studying the law. And that is- remains true for me to this day.

And so I actually enjoyed law school, which I know is a hot take for a lot of people.

[Patrick Patino]

I liked law school.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay, great! A lot of people are like, “Anyone who likes law school is a fucking loser.” And I'm like… well.

[Kate Bridal]

What?

[Patrick Patino]

I didn't think it was that bad. I don't know.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I liked the study of law. Like that is, that was like my favorite part of all of this that I ever did. So that's, I ultimately, the journey that Liar Liar sparked brought me to a place that really made sense. It just felt like I was connecting with it. 

When I went to law school, I really wanted to do impact litigation. So like, you know, taking on those big cases to change policy. I did a lot of pro bono stuff when I did practice. But ultimately, that's not what I did.

[Patrick Patino]

Practicing law is not really about changing anything.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I mean, listen, some policy changes through legal work, right?

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

But yes, it is- In practice, as we know, it is a lot trickier, slower, more frustrating, a tedious ass process to actually change policy.

[Patrick Patino]

And you're a curious person. You like doing deep dives. Most of the laws, what I call copy and paste.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I don't agree with that. What do you mean?

[Patrick Patino]

Where it's just the same rote thing. 

[Kate Bridal]

Depends on the type of law you practice maybe.

[Rhia Batchelder]

What kind of law do you practice?

[Patrick Patino]

I'm a bankruptcy attorney.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, okay.

[Kate Bridal]

I think that is true in your area. 

[Patrick Patino]

But I think, no, a lot of it, even like when I clerked for a criminal court judge, there's not a lot of creativity in much of the law.

[Rhia Batchelder]

In much of the law, sure. But I did complex commercial litigation. And I felt like a lot of the stuff I was doing was pretty creative and complicated.

[Patrick Patino]

Well, everything's novel there. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, and I was doing housing during COVID. So we were figuring stuff out on the fly a lot too.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's true. But I feel like my work, some of it, yeah. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

But a lot of it was like very case-specific. And I felt like my greatest skill I learned from practicing was learning something new every single case. Every single case, like new subject, new deep dive, new client, new documents, new law.

[Patrick Patino]

So you seem to love it. (Rhia laughs) What led you to then be like, peace out?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay. But the reality of practicing is not that I just get to sit and research whatever I want all day, as we know. I actually had a friend text me last week and ask, “Do you think if you had been in a different scenario or done a different type of law, would you still be practicing?”

And I said, maybe. Because I do think there is a big part of me that loves to practice. But it wasn't enough.

It was so isolated. I was doing that hyper-intellectual work a lot of the time. If you can't tell, I really like to talk to people and also be goofy in addition to my research deep dives.

So I felt like that part of me was really stifled. And the billing was making me crazy.

[Patrick Patino]

You'd make a great law school professor.

[Kate Bridal]

Mmm!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Perhaps, yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, this is the missing piece, I think, of a lot of legal practitioners that are doctrinal faculty is they like doing the research, but they have no people skills. And the people that have the people skills, they're in experiential learning. And the legal education is missing many of the people that can do both.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I agree. I think I would have crushed it at that. I don't think it would be as fulfilling to me as what I'm doing now, because I don't want to only talk to lawyers all day.

{Kate and Patrick laugh)

Sorry. Sorry about it. That's how I feel strongly about that.

And if I was a professor, I'd probably be doing a certain subject. And that, I think, would be boring to me. Right now, I talk about whatever I want, whenever I want. However I want.

[Patrick Patino]

You're unleashed.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I don't- I'm not constrained by, you can't say that. You know, like, there's so much politics in academia. 

[Patrick Patino] 

True.

[Rhia Batchelder]

At this point, after being an entrepreneur for several years, I think I would struggle ever going back to like a position where I am like one thing.

[Patrick Patino]

That's great. Kate, how do you feel now that you've been unleashed?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Ooh, Kate Unleashed! 

[Kate Bridal]

I feel great. (Patrick laughs.) It's been great. 

And I unleashed myself, kind of, not just from the legal industry. I jumped out from traditional law and went into marketing in legal tech.

And then I unleashed myself from that to do the podcast. Because it kind of was suggested to me that I would not be able to do both. So I said, OK, I choose the podcast.

And that was like the most empowering thing I've ever done. Quitting and just doing this full time and getting to really lean into it. And then seeing the impact it's been having, and that it's actually helping people in the way that I wanted, has been just like really empowering and amazing. And a lot of fun. 

I've been voluntarily fun-employed since the start of the podcast. So basically like since June of last year. And now I'm just starting to kind of do some part-time stuff for a small firm. But I'm, for the first time, dealing with the billable hour. And I am like- 

[Rhia Batchelder]

What do you mean?

[Kate Bridal]

-No, thanks. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

You never had to do-?

[Kate Bridal]

 No, I never. I worked for a nonprofit, we didn't bill anybody. (Rhia gasps) I never had to bill a day in my life because our services were free.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow! Yeah, that's nice.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, we were just salaried and we didn't have to worry about any of that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's crazy.

[Kate Bridal]

And I'm just like the way that it interrupts your day, and it's a whole other thing that you have to think about and calculate. And why is it six-minute increments? That's insane.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, it's so unhealthy. When I was making food unconsciously at night, I'd be like, “That was 0.3.”

[Kate Bridal]

Oh my god.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And then I'd be like, I'm losing my mind. Like, this is not normal.

Because you just are tracking. I will never forget that blue freaking thing with the timer running. It's like, I can never unsee it.

Oh, it is one of-

[Patrick Patino]

It haunts you. It haunts you.

[Rhia Batchelder] 

It haunts me. It was just such a big stressor. It's just shocking to me that it's normal. We got to figure that out. 

[Kate Bridal]

I know.

But so I'm like, now I'm doing that work to supplement this and my content and stuff. So it's like, it's not my life or my primary focus. It's just enabling me to focus on my primary focus, which is this.

And helping people and helping the folks that we all care about to learn that it's okay if you're burned out and that you're not by yourself. And that there are, as Patrick is trying to do, there are better ways to be a lawyer. There are better ways to be a mentor for lawyers and make the profession kinder.

[Patrick Patino]

There's a better way to just be. You can just be, you know? You don't got to be an asshole.

[Kate Bridal]

Right.

[Patrick Patino]

You know? I mean, it's simple stuff, right?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Step 1: Don't be an asshole.

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, it's simple, but not easy.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, it's not.

[Patrick Patino]

It's difficult to shift a paradigm that's entrenched in decades and decades and decades of systematized ways of doing things. And it's just baked into every single layer. And so you have to pick which layer you're going to go to.

What I've been, I guess, promoting is it's the way that you are. And just stripping away all of the different layers that we put on ourselves that come from external forces that remove our own autonomy, our agency, our permission to be ourselves. Like we shouldn't have shame to be ourselves.That's actually our superpower. 

And in relation to burnout, it's actually really powerful that we're talking right now is that a couple of weeks ago, I broke out in hives… 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh my god.

[Patrick Patino]

And here I am. I'm like The Newfangled Lawyer. I'm like the dude that's supposed to be like chill as fuck and like having fun.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Hive free.

[Patrick Patino]

I'm not supposed to get hives. Like what the fuck is this? And so I looked up. I just Googled, “can you get hives from stress?”

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes.

[Patrick Patino]

And I'm like, son of a bitch, you can! The reason why I'm saying that is it can feel as though I'm exposing that what I'm doing doesn't work.

[Kate and Rhia]

Mmmmm.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's not about the absence of stress ever, right?

[Patrick Patino]

No. 

[Kate Bridal]

That's not going to be possible because you're still practicing, yes, Patrick? Like you have a firm yourself, your own firm, right?

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Living in this world.

[Patrick Patino]

It's stressful, right? And having fun is stressful.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Did you just say having fun is stressful?

[Patrick Patino]

It can be.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, I would like to hear more about that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Can you elaborate?

[Patrick Patino]

It's the first time, this is the first time I've ever burned out from having fun, from saying yes to too many things that I enjoy.

[Kate Bridal]

Ooooohhh yes, yes, yes. Yep. You get excited and you're like, “Oh my God, this is all great, so I want to do everything all at once to keep the momentum going.”

[Patrick Patino]

I'm the type I want to have fun and create. And so that's where I have found myself in most recently in this phase of burnout. It's different than any other time.

But the question still remains like, is it have to do with the practice of law itself? Is it me as a person and the way that I am naturally, my innate being in like my most comfortable self, can never work as an attorney? Are there some people that are just not designed to be attorneys?

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's what I decided for myself.

[Kate Bridal]

I mean, I think the way that the law is now, yes, maybe that is true. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right.

[Kate Bridal]

That's how I felt too, was I was just like, I mean, I was never, it never came that naturally to me. I saw other people who I was like, “That person is born to do this.”

And I just kind of was originally supposed to be a stepping stone to something else. I don't need to be that good at it. And then I did wind up practicing law and I was like, “Oh, whoops.”

(Patrick laughs)

But practice of law can be so rigid that there isn't always space for people who want to do it differently. And those people wind up getting driven out. And I think that that sucks because, and why I'm glad that people like you are still in it, though I don't want you to stay into the point where you're so burned out, you can't function.

(Patrick laughs)

But I think it's important for some folks like you to stick around and like try and make those changes because I do think they're possible, but it's tough.

[Rhia Batchelder]

What exactly are the changes that you're thinking about, Patrick? Like what would make it more aligned for you?

[Patrick Patino]

Like my practice? 

[Kate Bridal]

Rhia's going to coach you. 

(Rhia snorts)

[Patrick Patino]

This is going to be good.

[Kate Bridal]

The coach voice came in. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

I did maybe ask you a coaching question. I apologize. That one was free though.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, yeah. First one's free, the rest are gonna cost you. 

[Patrick Patino]

So I came into it.

I practiced with my father-in-law for the first half of my career. And then I went solo after he retired right as the pandemic hit. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow.

[Kate Bridal]

Ugh.

[Patrick Patino]

And my practice area is bankruptcy. Well, no one was filing bankruptcy. 

And so I had to adapt and change and you iterate, right? And like I said before, you kind of bring in these layers that you pick up along the way of how other people practice, that is their way. That works for them. 

And what I've realized recently is I had picked up so much stuff and was practicing law in so many disjointed ways that I actually wasn't practicing law in the way I'd want to with like the values that I value, which is like being kind.

So the next iteration for me is really stepping into like our branding for the law firm is going to be like straight up like we're kind. We wear backwards hats. We're normal people just like you.

I've started baby stepping my way there. The next is like jumping where every facet of our messaging, our colors, our brand, our process, our systems, it's infused with we're going to hold your hand. I walk alongside you, but that messaging is nowhere because it seems scary, right? To like put that out there.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, for sure. I mean, I think the legal profession is built upon this prestige.

[Kate Bridal]

Big time.

[Rhia Batchelder]

“We are above you. We know so much more than you.”

[Kate Bridal]

“You need us.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

“That's why you're going to pay me this amount of money.” Which is kind of like facts, honestly, like not the prestigious part, but like the system is so archaic and specific that you really often do need an attorney every time you're going in. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Like it's not possible for most people to navigate on their own. But like, oh, we're so like fancy. Yeah, it's just like we just know that-

[Patrick Patino]

It's that elitism that creates separateness, creates otherness, creates lack of trust, creates fear. People are already afraid most of the time. Most everyday people.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yeah and intimidated.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh my God, yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

Right?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

And so it's like what if we could just be like approachable?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, I love that.

[Patrick Patino]

And integrating your professional self with your personal self where there are no two separate selves…

[Kate Bridal]

And what's been your like struggle with that? Because it sounds like you're very clear on like what you want, but you've been maybe struggling to actually like put it into practice? Like what's been the blocker?

[Patrick Patino]

Oo oo: It's me. I'm not an implementer. I can come up with ideas till the cows come home. But in terms of like the minute practical moving pieces, that is not me.

[Kate Bridal]

Patrick, what's your sign? Now I want to know because I have an idea.

(Patrick laughs)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, do you know?

[Patrick Patino]

What? Like my-

[Rhia Batchelder]

Astrology.

[Patrick Patino]

Oh, yeah. Well, tomorrow's my birthday.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, a Pisces. 

[Kate Bridal]

That's what I was going to guess! You sound like a Pisces because most Pisces struggle- They dream very big and they struggle with actually following through. 

My husband is a Pisces, but he's a whale, which is one of the rare ones who actually then take the steps to do what they're dreaming about.

[Patrick Patino]

And I'm working on that, right? Because it's hard. Like you can be in your head.

And so, yeah, I have all this clarity. I have these ideas. I spend a lot of time thinking about it.

For me, it's you got to get it out of your own way. You got to let go of control. You got to bring in other people who share your vision.

In the legal profession, to find people… The way that I am, all these things that I talk about, I go around kind of proselytizing like, you know, here- you can be kind. You can be approachable. You can be different. You can be yourself. 

Attorneys, it's voyeuristic. They're like, “I love that.” Then the second, you're like, “Okay, dude, be yourself,” they're like, “Ooooo…”

[Kate Bridal]

“I don't know if it's for me.”

[Patrick Patino]

“I don't know!”

[Rhia Batchelder]

“You go first. You go first.”

[Patrick Patino]

“I do know, man. You do it. Like, that's cool for you.” And so I think that's been the challenge, is…

I kind of feel like- I'm going to bring out some more 90s references. I feel like I'm Emilio Estevez in Mighty Ducks, going around trying to find my team with the duck call.

[Rhia Batchelder]

On LinkedIn.

[Patrick Patino]

On LinkedIn, straight up! That's kind of what I'm in the process of doing right now. It's like, well, who wants to join the team?

Well, part of that comes to is you need to have a shit ton of clarity of what you mean by doing it differently. I think that's probably what's been holding me back is just getting that clarity on my own and then finding people that want to actually live that. It's like unlearning, undoing.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, big time. There's a lot of unlearning. We talk about that a lot on the podcast.

Like all this stuff that you internalize, you have to unlearn from so many different things, but especially as an attorney. And yeah, in law school, it starts- I bring this up all the time- but it starts immediately, right? You're all put on a curve, so you're immediately in competition with your peers.

And it's just like, why? Why do we have to do things that way? You know?

I mean, the nice thing is in nonprofit, there's a lot less of a kind of idea that you're separate from your client. It's much more necessary to connect on a human level a lot of the time to get them to trust you and the kind of work that I was doing. But there were still definitely those attorneys who were like that, even in the nonprofit world, but it's a lot rarer.

[Patrick Patino]

In this whole thing of like figuring out what to do, Rhia, what did you like? What was your aha moment? Where you were like, “I'm pivoting, I'm not stuck here.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

I was interviewing. I was leaving big law. I had burned out hard.

[Patrick Patino]

What do you mean by burnout? I'm going to like, you like…

[Rhia Batchelder]

You want me to like define it? Sure.

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Or like my symptoms?

[Patrick Patino]

No, I think it's important.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, yeah. For Patrick's listeners, burnout stems from the result of prolonged unmanaged stress. So for me, there were a lot of things going on that went into that.

One of my biggest stressors is that I worked in Biglaw. It was really, really intense. My hours were intense. My managers were intense. The perfectionism was intense. The clients were intense. The expectations were intense. The deeply intellectual work I was doing was really intense. Like it was just a lot.

So I had actually been experiencing like stress-related physical symptoms for a couple years. I would get like very, very tight muscles. I was- I've always been an athlete. So I was constantly in PT, hurting myself. 

I'd go to osteopaths and they'd be like, this is not normal. And I'd be like, “la, la, la, la, la, la.”

[Patrick Patino]

(Laughing) Denial. Denial. 

[Kate Bridal]

Very not interested in that option. Thank you.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Straight up. Just deleted it. I was just like, I don't know what else to do. And that's why I started talking about burnout and like these conversations because I was just stuck.

I was like, “I don't see a way out of this and everyone else seems to be managing. So I'm just going to keep going.”

[Kate Bridal]

Ugh, that part of it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

So anyways, I burned out really hard, and then it came up with kind of like the more classic symptoms. Yes, exhaustion, lack of motivation. Suddenly I was like, “I don't care,” which is very unlike me. I'm very passionate about my work. 

I was making small mistakes a lot, just kind of like brain fog, like missing things. Like those are classic burnout symptoms.

I had the very classic burnout irritability where I just wanted to scream at like my managers and burn the place down. I was working from home, but like theoretically, for legal reasons, that is a very big joke. That's a joke, but seriously.

[Patrick Patino]

Asterisk, asterisk, does not mean-

[Kate Bridal] 

Rhia has no convicted history of arson.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I actually have no criminal record. Anyways, so I knew I was going to leave Biglaw because I was like, I'm absolutely done with this. 

I interviewed at impact lit places. I interviewed at like public interest places. I interviewed in-house. I was going to be the cushy nine to five that they sold us all.

Like, yeah, if you just get through these couple of years in Big Law, then you get one of these cushy nine to fives. They're set for the rest of your life. They're easy.

[Kate Bridal]

In-house. (Sings like an angelic choir) Ahhhh!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Whatever. Yeah, and so I was like interviewing and I had the resume, right?

Like I had spent the last six years at all the top firms. I was progressing in all these interviews for these different paths and I couldn't picture myself at any of them. And the moment for me was like, I was interviewing to be general counsel for USA Swimming. True story, yeah. 

And I was in the final round interviews between me and this other person and I was going to go to the office. And they just kept talking to me about like how I would be in C-suite meetings and like, you know, fucking running the company like as general counsel of USA Swimming.

And I was like, how did I get here? I'm very good interviewer.

(All laugh)

[Kate Bridal]

And ver smart and talented, thank you very much.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, I'm very smart and talented, but I also, that was above my britches, you know, like period, like it just was. And I was interviewing and I was like, this is probably like, if I got this job, the amount of people that would be like, this is so impressive. Like, what did you just do? How did you do this? 

The amount of LinkedIn reactions I would have gotten would have been insane.

[Kate Bridal]

The little dopamine hits.

[Patrick Patino]

Over a hundred!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Over- well over a hundred, well over a hundred! And I was like… I. Don't. Want. It. Like, I don't want to do it.

I don't want to be in these rooms, which these very serious people wearing these suits. I was just like, this is like so much responsibility for someone's mission that isn't my mission. And I felt like no matter where I was interviewing and all these different paths, it wasn't a fit like for exactly me.

And I'd been pushed so far to be like, so confined to such a specific version of myself. And I am, I do have a version of myself that can sit in boardrooms and of course, period. 

[Kate Bridal]

Of course.

[Patrick Patino]

Oh, sure.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Period. Like that's something I can do. And I actually like doing that sometimes. 

But I had, I was only that, you know, for so much. And it was so, I was so controlled that I just felt like, fuck it. I want to do exactly what I want to do.

And so there was that moment in that interview where I was like, “I'm going to have to go to their offices and I'm going to get this job offer.” I just like knew it. And then I was like, “And then I'm going to turn them down?!”

(Kate and Patrick laugh)

Like, this is like, what am I doing right now? You know, like, what is this? And so I, I like pulled out of everything.

I was like, “Hey everybody, I'm starting my own business.” And they were all like, “okay, like, well, like good luck.” You know, it was just kind of crazy.

And then I had, I had had it in the back of my head, like coaching, because I knew it would be utilizing a lot of the skillset that I used in law while allowing me to pick my clients, work mostly with women, which is what I wanted to do at that time and do everything that I wanted to do exactly how I wanted to do it when I wanted to do it. That was like such a draw for me.

[Patrick Patino]

So did your, did your values change?

[Rhia Batchelder]

I think that I had more space to feel my values. Like, I think I had been compromising them in a way. Like, I wouldn't say, I wasn't just like a mean corporate lawyer, you know, like I did significant pro bono work my entire time in big law.

So I was always that person that like wanted to help, but I think I also was so much- I hadn't unlearned a lot of parts of me that like kind of we were talking about. The need to get approval. I had many daddy issues. And so climbing to the top of a profession that was like really, really hard to get to that level and getting all this praise was like very addictive to me.

[Kate Bridal]

Where all of your bosses were like daddy age.

[Rhia Batchelder]

They're all like, “Wow, you're incredible”  I'm like, “Thank you so much!”

[Kate Bridal]

“Thanks dad! I mean, I mean, sir! I mean-!“ 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Low key... 

[Patrick Patino]

“You can sit in the front seat tonight.” “Shotgun, shotgun!”

(All laugh)

[Rhia Batchelder]

A little bit! Like that sort of praise like felt really, really good. And I had, I had been like praised from a very young age for being very smart. So it was just like, kept going. Where I was like, kept going to the very top of every place I was going. And then it just felt good. 

And then also I was making fuck you money as a 28 year old. I never thought about one thing that I bought. I used to DoorDash myself lobster rolls at the end of a night. And like, I did not grow up like that!

[Patrick Patino]

That’s bougie.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know. And in my heart, I'm a bougie girl. So that was like very appealing to me.

And I did not grow up like that. So it was like also confusing. Like there was just like a lot of shininess around me.

And then, then you get so busy. Like I didn't have room to think about what's next. How do I even go about understanding that?

There was a lot of work I had to do on myself. And then starting my own business allowed me to actually, I mean, the first year of my business was like me undoing my perfectionism, like pushing myself to do things outside of my comfort zone, finding my voice, like undoing all the thoughts around what I could say, what was professional, what wasn't. It was like a bootcamp to like pull myself out of that world and like really find who I was.

Crazy ass move when I look back, that was wild.

[Patrick Patino]

Some people call that brave.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Thank you. Yeah. A little delusional, perhaps.

[Patrick Patino]

Well, we all have, you have to be that a little bit. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, you need some magical thinking if you're gonna do anything that the three of us have done.

(Kate laughs)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, right. I remember my therapist was like, “Wait a minute, Rhia, like it can take a really long time to get clients.” And I was like, “Shut up! Like, I just need to do what I wanna do right now!” 

[Kate Bridal]

“I’ll figure it out.” 

[Rhia Batchelder]

And he was like, “No, you're right.” He was worried about me, but he was also like, “You're right, like, I love this for you in so many ways, but also I'm concerned.” And he had the right to be.

[Kate Bridal]

Just wanna make sure you're thinking it through.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I was not, I was not. It was really like a lot of vibes at the time.

[Patrick Patino]

Well, how often do you give yourself permission to just think in possibility instead of what's practical?

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, I do it all the time. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

That’s what I do… Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

Oh, good. 

[Kate Bridal]

That's like all I do is fantasize about like grandiose things that I'm about to be doing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's like my entire business.

[Patrick Patino]

So Kate, like what is like a completely impractical dream you have?

[Kate Bridal]

I have a 500-page fan fiction, superhero fan fiction that I've written just for my best friend that I think legitimately has like some bones to it. And I, the other day, spent time Googling how to contact both Issa Rae and Awkwafina to shop it to them, to be in it with me.

(Kate laughs)

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, Awkwafina would be delightful.

[Kate Bridal]

Awkwafina would be great. I actually think she could play the role of my bestie. So Awkwafina, if you're listening, if you wanna do a crazy off-brand superhero thing… I have written, Colin Hanks, of course, has a role in there that I've written for him because I'm obsessed with Colin Hanks.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Of course.

[Patrick Patino]

He's great too!

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, yeah, so that's the latest one. But I have just always had- I mean, I went to drama school because I was like, I”'m gonna be a movie star.” So I went to drama school in LA, that's what I did.

And then I was like, “I'm gonna work with chimpanzees who speak sign language.” So that's what I did for a little while in college. 

And then I was like, “I'm gonna be an FBI agent and catch serial killers.” So I went to law school and then that didn't work out. But you know, here we are. 

And then I was like, “I'm gonna start a podcast.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

And she did!

[Kate Bridal]

And I did.

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, look at you! 

I mean, but this is one of, I think, the lost arts. I go back to our beautiful founding fathers of America.

(Kate snorts.)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh! 

[Patrick Patino]

They did all kinds of shit.

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) Rhia and I are like, “Hmm…”

(Rhia laughs)

[Patrick Patino]

They're like, you know, if you think about it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

(Skeptically) Mmm… Those men. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

But… Great, thanks.

[Rhia Batchelder]

This is not the audience for this analogy.

(All laugh) 

[Patrick Patino]

Thanks for killing it. What I'm saying is, it used to be you could do whatever the fuck you wanted.

[Kate Bridal]

No, I get you. Yes, of course.

[Patrick Patino]

You know what I'm saying?

[Kate Bridal]

They were like, “Let's just start a whole new fucking country about it then.”

[Patrick Patino] 

Yeah, right? 

[Kate Bridal]

That is a batshit thing to do.

[Patrick Patino]

We're like inventors, but also writers, but also poets, but also this. It's like, almost we got sold a lie. Like along the way, it was like, you're gonna go to college.

You're gonna become an accountant.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, especially as millennials.

[Patrick Patino]

And then you're gonna be an accountant for your whole life.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And you're gonna be so happy.

[Patrick Patino]

And then you'll die. And then you'll die. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh.

[Patrick Patino]

And now we all show up and we're like, what the fuck?

Or it's like, I graduated undergrad in 2009. And it's like, there was nothing there. So it's like, we had that.

And then we had a global pandemic. And then it's like, nothing. 

So we're now like fucking around. We're like, okay, well, we can make money doing anything. Why aren't we like going and doing whatever we want? And that can change 10,000 times.

So like people like Kate, it's so refreshing to just be like, “I'm gonna go do this thing for a while. And if it doesn't work, I'm gonna go do the next thing for a little while.”

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And it does. I mean, I wanna say like that comes from an enormous place of privilege. I've always had a safety net. Like my family was never gonna let me be on the street. 

I've lived very much paycheck to paycheck and had my whole month fucked by an overdraft fee and all of that. But that was by choice. It was like, because I was getting a college education that I was able to get. And I could have called home and been like, “Mom, I need a couple hundred bucks.” And she would have given it to me. 

I don't take for granted that everyone's in a position to be able to do the things that I've done.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. And I do think a lot of people have a low tolerance for unpredictability. And like when you were looking for your career path, when you were trying to figure out what's gonna work for you, yes, do what Patrick's doing.

“What have I been sold? What has that made me believe? Why?”

Like do that work. But also you're allowed to match your personality type to like a job. Right? I think that's what a lot of my clients struggle with. 

I had someone come to me and they're like, I have this like predictable nine to... It was like a nine to three. Honestly, he was fucking killing it. He came to me and he's like, “I feel like I should be passionate. Like my friends are starting businesses and blah, blah, blah.”

And I was like, “Well, what do you like to do?” And he's like, “I like to golf. I like to hang out with my wife. I like to cook. I like to work out.”

And I'm like, “What do you do every day when you're not working?” “I golf. I hang out with my wife. I work out.”

And I was like, “So what's the problem”? And he was feeling like, “Well, I'm just doing, I'm doing what I was told to do and work. And like, but it's kind of like working for me.”

[Kate Bridal]

Oh that’s so interesting!

[Rhia Batchelder]

And he's like, I kind of like have my dream life. Like he golfed like four times a week. I was like, this is sick, dude. Like keep this. And he just needed that permission.

[Kate Bridal]

That’s so funny! Like he's uncomfortable being comfortable and like okay with the system that the rest of us are like upset about. So he's like, “Should I be upset? Crap, I'm not!” Aww!

(Patrick laughs)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Exactly! It was so interesting to me. Cause I was like, “Sir!”

[Kate Bridal]

Thrive if you can thrive, dude.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. And he really was. He really was.

And he was like, “Is it okay that I'm not the most passionate about my work?” And I was like, “Yeah.” But then there's people like me who you're not going to get me up to do tedious stuff that I don't care about. Like I'm not going to do it. And… 

I guess I did for a long time but I'm not going to do it anymore. I'm like you, Patrick, in the way that I like to talk about. I like to think big picture. I like to talk about culture. I like to talk about the world we live in.

And so like a nine to five and that stability is not worth what I'd have to give up in order to like get that. And if you're listening you have to make your own calculus of like…

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Cause also on the other end of it, I will tell you that the last three years of entrepreneurship have been incredibly stressful and hard money-wise, particularly for me. And I'm single. I bought a house before I quit law on accident. (Rhia and Patrick laughs.) I didn't really realize this is where I was going.

[Kate Bridal]

You had the fuck you money. And you were like, “Well, alrighty.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

I was like, well, this is a smart investment.

[Patrick Patino]

It's a millennial move. We do so many things by accident. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh shit, I'm a homeowner. 

[Patrick Patino]

Oh no, how did this happen?!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Now I have to like fix the dishwasher when it doesn't work. 

[Kate Bridal]

The worst!

[Rhia Batchelder]

You know, plumbers are expensive. So I'm just saying like my number one stressor is the lack of stability that came from what I used to work in the corporate world.

And I think that eventually that will go away for me. It's starting to get, you know, to a place where everything is laid and everything's making sense. But for a long time, that wasn't the case.

And I had to be like, I'm okay with that. Cause I don't want, I don't want the terms and conditions.

[Patrick Patino]

You chose yourself.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes. 

[Patrick Patino]

That's hard.

[Kate Bridal]

Lack of control is hard. And I learned it honestly- ‘Cause I never felt like it was instability. I was jumping around, but I was in control of my jumping.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes.

[Kate Bridal]

Then my husband went into the Navy my second year of law school. And then I was not in control of where I was gonna live for the next… foreseeable future. I had zero control of where we were going or when we were going.

And you know, they would say he was leaving on one date and then it got bumped up by a month. And then it's like, oh no, now on your second six-month deployment, you're also missing all the holidays. Have fun.

Enjoy. Bye.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh my gosh.

[Kate Bridal]

And it was so hard because I do like being in control. (Patrick laughs) Of course, big shock. I think a lot of people go into the law enjoy that.

And I couldn't plan things because every plan changed. I realized I have a lot of trouble with that. I'm not entirely sure where it comes from, but when I have it in my head that something's gonna happen a certain way and it doesn't happen that way, I get- really go to a 10 really fast.

And I've gotten better about that now and going with the flow. It has given me this kind of ability to roll with the punches a lot better. And I've just learned if you do just let go, the world doesn't end.

And you just have to do it enough times that you're just starts to feel safe to just be like, “I don’t know.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

True.

[Kate Bridal]

It's still not comfortable, (Patrick laughs) but it's not to the point where it's like…

[Rhia Batchelder]

It’s not a 10.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, exactly.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, that shit is hard.

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, we don't know a lot.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Very true.

[Patrick Patino]

We don't know anything actually.

[Kate Bridal]

Right, the idea that you have control over anything at any given moment is a little bit of a hallucination in the first place.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It is, it's a little bit of a lie.

[Kate Bridal]

So Patrick, how did you get to the point where you were like, “I need to start talking about this?” What was your journey?

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah, so I'm just gonna go back to what led me to law school.

[Kate Bridal]

Origin story.

[Patrick Patino]

I went to law school because I was like, okay, I graduated with a degree in creative writing. And what do you do with that?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Two little drama nerds in here.

[Patrick Patino]

I'll just sit and write some poetry, don't mind me. And so really it was kind of that idea of what we were talking about of stability. This is gonna sound super privileged, but I was at the country club with my parents.

[Rhia Batchelder]

“One day at the country club, I decided to go to law school! I was writing some prose…”

[Kate Bridal]

“I was writing poetry in the corner.” 

[Patrick Patino]

And it was like at that moment, I was like, okay, I like to read, I like to write, and I'm smart, and it's a recession.

[Kate bridal]

Check, check, check, and check.

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, I applied for a hundred jobs. Didn't get anything.

[Rhia Batchelder]

In 2008, it's crazy.

[Patrick Patino]

It was absolutely brutal. I initially got accepted to law school, but deferred for a year. I worked as a bouncer at a bar in Wrigleyville. I delivered furniture.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wait, do you live in Chicago?

[Patrick Patino]

I used to.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Where'd you go to law school? In Chicago?

[Patrick Patino]

University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I went to UChicago, so just for a second, I was like, “Did we go to the same law school?”

[Patrick Patino]

(Laughing) I'm not smart enough to have gone to U of Chicago, nor did I have good enough grades in undergrad. And part of that is because I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I still don't know.

[Kate Bridal]

Right, yeah, you weren't working with the mind of I want to go to- 

[Patrick Patino]

“I'm going to go to law school.” I didn't start even thinking about it. I still don't even know what really OCIs are. I don't know really- 

[Kate Bridal]

Right? So much was news to me. I was like, “I have to take an ethics exam? Wait, what?”

I did no research. I went in, so just- 

[Patrick Patino]

“What's an MPRE? What?”

[Kate Bridal]

“What, what? I gotta- How long do the scores last?”

[Patrick Patino]

“What?” That's kind of how I just showed up to law school, just like ignorant, naive, but I basically stayed that way. I joined my father-in-law's practice out of law school, partially because I didn't want to go work at a big law firm.

I had long hair, a beard. I wore like scarves. Like, I looked like- 

(Kate and Rhia laugh)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Not the scarves!

[Kate Bridal]

I don't know what I thought you were going to say, but scarves was not it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Do you mean like the little scarf? Like the little-

[Patrick Patino]

No, no, no. Like those big, like hippie, you know, like- 

[Kate Bridal]

Like a circle scarf? 

[Patrick Patino]

Or like- Kind of, yeah.

Like an infinity scarf.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, okay, okay, okay. 

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) The scarves! 

[Rhia Batchelder]

I needed the picture.

[Patrick Patino]

I took a international tax class. It was taught at some fancy law firm downtown. We'd have to go through security.

And me going through security, they were like, “Are you sure you're supposed to be here?” “And I'm like, yeah, here's my pass.” They'd be like, “How'd you get this pass?”

[Rhia Batchelder]

They were like, “Look at this guy with his scarves.”

[Kate Bridal]

“Scarves have no place in the law.”

[Patrick Patino]

“We have an anti-scarf policy, sir. You're gonna have to leave that at the door.” 

So I just knew, like, from that point, like, I just wanted to keep wearing scarves, you know, in kind of a metaphorical sense.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Live your truth.

[Kate Bridal]

Keep wearing scarves.

[Patrick Patino]

And my father-in-law, he had a massive heart attack.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, wow.

[Patrick Patino]

Like 16, 17 years ago. He had a heart transplant.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick Patino]

And being an attorney is tough. He was kind of your classic attorney.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

He had a very successful career, but I was like, there's gotta be a different way. Like, it can't be your retirement plan is like, you're gonna die and be lowered down in your desk chair into the ground.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, seriously, though.

[Patrick Patino]

I tried kind of a traditional path. Very traditional. It was a lovely place. It's one iteration of doing it, right? And it works for some people. I just always felt like other. Like, I didn't quite fit in. 

The managing partner one day brought me into the office and good for her, like, super brave to be like, “You have a unique skillset. We don't know how to use you.”

And so I was like, “Well, shit.”

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) What a kind way to put that.

[Patrick Patino]

Compliment accepted? Like, great. Then when I went off on my own, I just realized I kept running into the same outcome, which was like, can I be myself and practice law?

What I found was that when you talked with attorneys as a new attorney or in law school, what did they say to you? This is the worst fucking thing you could ever do.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, they say, “Don't go to law school unless you really love the law.” I was like, “I fucking love the law.”

[Kate Bridal]

And I was like, “I don't, but whatever.”

(Patrick laughs)

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah, like, I liked helping people. 

[Kate Bridal]

That's what I, yep.

Well and they tell you it's gonna- you're gonna be able to do anything with a law degree.

[Rhia Batchelder]

They do tell you that.

[Kate Bridal]

I was like, “Well, I don't wanna be a lawyer, but at least I have a law degree and I can do whatever I want.” Lies. 

[Patrick Patino]

Spoiler alert!

[Kate Bridal]

I mean, it's not really. Like you can make it work. But it's not as, uh…

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's not just like you wave it.

[Kate Bridal]

Everyone is just clamoring for a law degree at every job, you know? 

[Patrick Patino]

Like, “You have a JD?!”

[Kate Bridal]

Sometimes it goes against you. They're like, “You're overqualified.” And you're like, “I don't- but you don't understand!” 

[Patrick Patino]

I just wanna sell yoga pants at Lululemon!

[Kate Bridal]

Please let me sell yoga pants!!!

[Patrick Patino]

Sorry. You know about the statute of frauds. We're sorry.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, so you can't possibly. 

[Patrick Patino]

You can't. Yeah, so I mean, there wasn't a good example.

And so I just started being like, when I interact with other attorneys and law students, I'm gonna tell them like, you can have joy. Like, it doesn't have to be miserable. Do the thing you enjoy. Like, do the thing you're good at. 

Being an attorney is tough. It's stressful. It's hard work. You might as well enjoy the work you're doing, right? And no one tells you that really in law school.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, God, no.

[Patrick Patino]

If something clicks for you, do that. Even if it's not something you thought you were going to do. 

Maybe you thought you were gonna be an antitrust attorney, but you're really good at family law and you really like it. Please go be a family law attorney! 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes, pivot.

[Patrick Patino]

We need more people in the profession that find the thing they love and are good at and go do it and then share with other people, this is, I found it.

And it might take some trial and error. It might be uncomfortable. You might like, enjoy doing it for five years and then fucking hate it. I mean, and that's okay too.

[Kate Bridal]

And it might not be an area of the law that you think is-

[Patrick Patino]

Sexy.

[Kate Bridal] 

-the most prestigious or sexy. Exactly right. Like, you might love contracts and that's okay.

And contracts- you can get very prestigious work doing contracts.

(All laugh)

[Rhia Batchelder]

I was gonna say I did contracts.

[Kate Bridal]

That was a bad example on the prestigious end of things. But I mean, like if you went in thinking like, I'm gonna be a, you know, whatever, a prosecutor or something and then you're like, but I am a little contracts nerd and I actually love this.

It's not the same image you had in your head of yourself, but it's okay.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I think that's really great advice. Especially like, I don't know if this was like a UChicago particular thing. I know that a lot of my friends at other top schools felt the same way, but they were very much like, go into big law.

This is what you're doing.

[Kate Bridal]

I've heard that other places, and Cornell uniquely actually was really good about supporting public interest. But I've heard that feedback a lot as well from other schools. 

[Patrick Patino]

Well, it's because it's a feedback loop of prestige.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes, 100%.

[Kate Bridal]

And there will always be jobs so you can get placed so then their numbers look good.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's exactly it. And then it's just like more complicated to find the correct fit to do it intentionally. But like, that is the best advice that you can take as a baby lawyer, as a law student, or in any profession is to figure out like what exactly works for you.

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah, like what is the standard? Well, there is no standard, right? And it's kind of what we were talking about before.

It's like, yeah, a UChicago trained attorney or Cornell trained attorney, a Harvard law trained attorney that then is like, I have an interest in being a family law attorney straight out of law school. The law firm you would approach would be like, what? Like, we don't know what to do with you. You're not supposed to be here. 

So then you feel really confused. You're like, yeah, but I'm really passionate about family law or immigration. And they're like, wait a second…

[Kate Bridal]

You're not gonna do a few years over at one of those big firms and then discover that you can't transition into nonprofit because the hit you would take to your salary is unsustainable for you, so you never actually do what you wanna do? Yeah. That’s the normal way.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yep. 

[Kate Bridal]

This weirdo coming straight out of law school determined to not make any money.

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah, what juice did you drink? So I don't know. I mean, I took a solo small law firm class and it was just like championed, like, you can be a really cool, rad attorney.

[Kate Bridal]

That's so cool.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, that is cool.

[Patrick Patino]

These people seem like they're like, kind of Rhea to your point, like doing whatever the fuck they wanted.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

And so it's like, I wanna do whatever the fuck I want!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

You know? And so, I mean, it kind of reached a point, I would say really like a breaking point for me was probably two years ago. I'm gonna pull out my driver's license so you can see the picture. I'm gonna block out all the rest. 

Look how unhappy that dude is.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No scarf. 

[Patrick Patino]

No scarf.

[Kate Bridal]

No scarf to be seen.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No scarf in sight.

[Patrick Patino]

Right? Like I wasn't living my life, right? 

I was broken. I was not me. And I was like, “Something needs to change.” That was scary.

You have to change a lot of behavior, a lot of the way you interact with yourself. Yes. And what you think achievement means and success means and fulfillment means.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Patrick Patino]

And so I just started making radical changes. Like I got rid of my iPhone. For a while, I was like, I'm not gonna interact with any screen at all. I'm just gonna start reading books.

[Kate Bridal]

Good for you. Cause I- law school ruined reading for me. And I love reading. It broke my heart and I'm trying to get it back. 

But it just feels like so much more mental effort. You know, when you're burned out, you're at the end of the day and you've been reading opinions all day. And like analyzing shit. I was like, I don't, I can put on Step Brothers and watch that.  (Patrick laughs) That's what I have the capacity to do.

Never appreciated stupid comedy more in my life. 

[Patrick Patino]

Thank you, Jim Carrey. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes, Jim Carrey, Will Ferrell.

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah, I mean, it's, I had to break. And it doesn't have to be that extreme. 

And so that's what kind of inspired me to start Newfangled, to then start writing, start posting on LinkedIn, start a newsletter, start a podcast, to share just stories and narratives of attorneys as real people. 

Showing that it's messy. It's not linear. It's not like I've figured this out. And I think that's the fallacy of LinkedIn or any kind of social media sometimes. My wife calls LinkedIn braggy Facebook.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It is the worst place. And everyone's writing in the most formal sentence structure. And I'm like, I know y'all!

[Kate Bridal]

Oh my God. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know y'all! I have blacked out with so many of y'all! I hate it.

[Kate Bridal]

I'm glad that my algorithm is feeding yours because I got on LinkedIn when I was encouraged by my tech job to get way more active. So I did. And so of course, all of the stuff I was being fed was tech and tech CEOs and all of these like super intolerable people who were saying all of the same things that the other one said over and over and over again and acting like it was this new, amazing idea.

Once I quit that job, I very intentionally went through my LinkedIn and was like, “I'm gonna unfollow some of these folks. I'm gonna follow a bunch of people who are talking about how stupid LinkedIn is.” Like that is what I'm gonna do.

And so then I curified- or, curified… (Kate laughs) curated and diversified my feed a lot more. And it's much more pleasant.

[Patrick Patino]

But “curified” is good!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I liked “curified”!

[Kate Bridal]

That should be my stupid like tech CEO phrase that I then build a whole like brand around.

[Patrick Patino]

That should be your next LinkedIn post.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, “curify.” 

But I follow one creator in particular named Jupiter Stone and they're just awesome. Like they write completely stream of consciousness the way that I always feel compelled to write and their whole thing is like diversify the feed, follow more people that aren't just doing…

[Patrick Patino]

Like, “This morning I made waffles. This is a lesson I learned from these waffles.”

[Kate Bridal]

Exactly “Here's how the waffles taught me how to run my business.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

I completely agree. (Patrick laughs) I'm like, come on for the love of God. This is brutal!

[Kate Bridal]

And once in a while I think of a really good one. Like I posted the other day, I can't remember what it was, but I was like, I really hate to force a LinkedIn metaphor out of this, but I actually felt compelled that I'm sorry, but I'll always apologize.

[Rhia Batchelder]

They've got in your head, Kate. You're like sitting there making waffles and you're like, you know what? LinkedIn would love this.

I persevered throughout this waffle experience!

(All laugh)

Mine are lawyers like posting like a lot from big law times, right? Like a lot of my friends went that way.

Obviously a lot of my colleagues. And so they'll be like posting like, “so proud to be promoted to counsel.” And I'm like, you called me crying last week being like, “I hate my job.”

Like, it's just weird.

[Kate Bridal]

The duality.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Totally fake on there. 

Patrick, you and I have very similar like breaking points and stories of us kind of like going in and being like, “Okay, well we're gonna start like talking about culture and-“ actually Kate too. But my approach was not LinkedIn.

I started on Instagram because it felt like the opposite world to like the super serious big law environment where it was like very, very buttoned up.

[Patrick Patino]

Like no open toe shoes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, fuck no. Open toe shoes? Like, are you kidding me?

I mean like no-

[Kate Bridal]

No scarves.

[Patrick Patino]

God damn it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No scarves! Unless they're like literally Ferragamo. The men were walking around in full suit and tie at all times, like fuck an open toe shoe. Like it was very incredibly formal.

So I just felt like I needed, I wanted to be on Instagram and like dance and… Not like- I don't post dancing videos. Like you're not- don't come to my Instagram and-

[Kate Bridal]

I was gonna say where are- I'm gonna dig through... 

[Patrick Patino]

What's your go-to dance song?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh God, I have so many. Definitely Rihanna. It's a little inappropriate. Like, let me go with Bitch Better Have My Money as like one of my favorite songs.

[Kate Bridal]

You know who the star of that music video is? 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Who? 

[Kate Bridal]

Mads Mikkelsen. AKA Hannibal Lecter.

[Rhia Batchelder]

What?! 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, he's the bitch. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

That is hilarious.

[Kate Bridal]

Sorry, for those of you who don't know, I've been making silly videos on the internet where I pretend to be in a relationship with Hannibal Lecter. 

[Patrick Patino]

How's that going for you?

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's going great for her. 

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) Really well actually. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. I've never even seen Hannibal, they're hilarious.

[Kate Bridal]

Thank you. Just yesterday, I dropped my husband at the airport. We were talking about Nelly.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Shake Your Tail Feathers is one of my other songs.

[Patrick Patino]

Oldie but a goodie. 

[Kate Bridal]

And I rediscovered Nelly's Country Grammar album and was listening to it on the way home. And he references Hannibal Lecter in Country Grammar, the song.

He's like talking about how much money he has. And he's like, “I hang with Hannibal Lecter.” 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Damn.

[Kate Bridal]

I was like, he's everywhere. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

He is. 

[Kate Bridal]

Anyway, sorry, that was really off-topic.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, that was great.

[Kate Bridal]

You wanted to go on Instagram and be liberated.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I did.

[Patrick Patino]

Like every good millennial. 

[Kate Bridal]

I know, and me too! Like, that's what I'm doing!

I was like, I started making content while I was at my old job, but of course I still had to be conscious of what I was putting out there. And now since I am not, I'm like, my last video, I'm holding a neon sign shaped like an eggplant that says, “dig old dicks.” 

I was sitting there and I was like, oh no, should I do this? Is it unprofessional? I was like, who the fuck cares? Who's, like- do it.

And now it has, you know, a good amount of views. So it paid off.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. I credit Instagram actually for a lot of my personal growth because I was never social media girly. That was not my thing.

When I was thinking about my own business, I was like, well, I have to market somewhere. And I was like, I'm not marketing to lawyers. So I have to start something from scratch, like not my LinkedIn.

So it's like Instagram, I'm gonna make this up. And it was so hard and terrible. Like I did not know how to do anything.

Like I didn't know how to design the little post. Putting my ideas into like tiny little things that people could see and stop and share and read was such a big challenge.

[Kate Bridal]

Still struggle with that. Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I was so bad at the graphic design, like horrific. If you scroll back on my feed, that's what you're gonna see. Ugly ass shit, ugly. 

(Kate and Patrick laugh)

But I just was kind of like, I'm just gonna keep doing this every day and let it be like a shit show until it forms into something real. And that was like my biggest fight against perfectionism. Cause I had learned the opposite for so long. 

And I was like, I'm just gonna show up as best as I can. It was so uncomfortable, but it was like the best thing that's ever happened for like my personal development.

Cause it forced me to just out of my comfort zone and like, here's the power of just like showing up imperfectly, letting it be seen, letting it be messy and like kind of letting it unfold. Cause I really couldn't have predicted exactly what it turned into when I started.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, and you made it really successful!

[Patrick Patino]

You're like a lawyer influencer?

[Rhia Batchelder]

I actually kind of resent the term influencer, but you're gonna call me an influencer... (Patrick laughs) I'm an anti-burnout influencer if I'm gonna be anything. I feel like influencer is a little reductive because what I do is like deep research, big ideas, like advocacy, but I use Instagram and TikTok and now LinkedIn as like ways to spread my message, build my business.

Maybe it's like my own internalized misogyny around the word “influencer.” I don't sell shit unless it's my work. You know, like I'm not like hawking anything.

[Patrick Patino]

If someone would pay you to hawk something, what would you want to hawk?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Blue Apron, if you're listening, please. (Kate and Patrick laugh) Please.

[Kate Bridal]

Blue Apron, if you're interested in sponsoring The Legal Burnouts, we will talk such say nice things. We'll eat your meals on camera.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I love Blue Apron. I think it's so good. And I don't, honestly, when I was healing from burnout, it was like one of the things I used a lot.

[Kate Bridal]

It can help!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, cause I, the biggest stress around mealtime for me is like thinking of what to do.

[Patrick Patino]

I'm seeing a great brand collaboration of Snoop Dogg, Martha Stewart, and Blue Apron.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow. I mean, we’re in.

[Kate Bridal]

Call us, Martha.

[Patrick Patino]

It would crush.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I did get a couple things sent to me for free that I don't understand why. Like FabFitFun sent me two boxes for free one time. 

[Kate Bridal]

That's cool!

[Rhia Batchelder]

They took me off, I think, cause I didn't sell any. (Patrick laughs) I was like, “Look at this cool shit that I got for free, guys!”

[Kate Bridal]

“If you can get this stuff for free, I highly recommend it.”

(Rhia and Patrick laugh) 

I only get the like totally illegitimate ones. Clearly a mass Instagram message to like every person who's on the internet.

I'd probably be more likely to like whore myself out for something like that. But I'd have to do it in a funny, like they'd have to let me do it in some way that's like winky.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Ooo, you would be good at that, Kate!

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Kate's like an incredible actress.

[Kate Bridal]

Thank you. 

[Patrick Patino]

If you could be a brand ambassador for one thing, what would it be?

[Kate Bridal]

I'm not ready for the question, so you should answer first.

(Patrick laughs)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, Patrick, what would yours be? 

[Patrick Patino]

Oh my gosh. I would love to be a brand ambassador for like Patagonia.

[Kate Bridal]

That's such a good one!

[Patrick Patino]

I'm not gonna go like climb, you know, El Capitan like anytime soon. Like, but just like lifestyle, like day to day.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It’s like, “You don't have to be intense to wear Patagonia.”

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, Vuori! If Vuori wants to send me some stuff, I now own like a pair for every day of the week and I've gotten all of my family addicted to them. My brother-in-law has them. My sister has like several pairs, my husband. But I was like, I live in sweats all the time and they are so comfy and so soft. Vuori, please…

[Patrick Patino]

Who wants to wear real pants ever again? Like who sold us on like khaki pants?

[Kate Bridal]

Every time I put jeans on now, I'm like, how did I do this for so long?

[Rhia Batchelder]

I strongly agree. On every podcast and in my client sessions, I'm like, nice top, sweatpants.

[Kate Bridal]

Okay, well, we definitely have to pull this clip and put it out there so that one of us can get a...

(Patrick laughs)

[Rhia Batchelder]

Especially the Blue Apron part. I really think that Blue Apron….

[Kate Bridal]

I think that one is very true.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It makes sense!

[Kate Bridal]

I agree with you!

[Patrick Patino]

And you know, there's someone that watches their social and like probably has the autonomy to be like, “We're gifting that person three months.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

I've emailed them three times. No one has responded.

(Rhia and Patrick laugh)

[Kate Bridal]

As yet.

[Rhia Batchelder]

My face hurts from laughing.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, we've been talking for almost two hours.

[Rhia Batchelder]

So bye.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, so we're done and we're hanging up on you. I don't know, like what's a good kind of way to wrap things up?

[Patrick Patino]

Yeah, so how I end is I ask, what do you think it means to be a newfangled lawyer? 

[Kate Bridal]

Ooh, okay.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I honestly don't know the answer because to me it was like, I had to leave the law to like be that version of myself. But I don't know if that's true in all places.

[Patrick Patino]

Well, I think we've talked a lot about just occupying space. Being vulnerable enough to just admit that the place that you are might not be the place. That place may be in the legal profession, it may not be.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, I think detaching yourself from the concept of prestige and the concept that your self-worth is tied to achieving, and accomplishment, and public accomplishment, and other people recognizing your achievements and accomplishments. Like, you should own your achievements and be proud of yourself. But know that that is not everything about who you are.

And that even if you were doing something that you really love, that doesn't feel as public or as grandiose or as whatever, it is so legitimate. Like taking care of yourself is a radical act, especially in the law. And the more that people see that modeled, the more other people will start to be kinder to themselves and be healthier themselves.

We've had a couple of folks bring this up in the issue of mentorship: Encouraging mentors and partners and people who are higher up in the law to model vulnerability, to model imperfection, to model that they did not get there through being the perfect lawyer who checked every box and was handling themselves completely well the whole time. Because it's not the truth. No one did that.

[Patrick Patino]

Oh, it's messy.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That was beautiful, Kate. 

[Kate Bridal]

Thank you. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

That was the perfect answer.

I agree. I'm just gonna say, those of you who know me know how seriously I take stress reduction and stress management. And I think some of the offhanded ways that you do that or ways that aren't so obvious is like Kate said, to really take care of yourself and show up for yourself and to understand that that comes before your to-do list.

Like I think it can be really easy to get lost in the law, especially with the billable hour and all the competition, people posting on braggy Facebook.  

It's really normalized to disrespect your body and your physical being in order to perform at the levels that a lot of lawyers do. It's not a requirement that you put yourself through that to be successful or impressive.

And if you're in a place where you're being asked to do that to the extent that you cannot care for your humanness, leave.

[Patrick Patino]

It’s not worth it. Those were great answers. 

I'm gonna leave on kind of this idea of doing.

Productivity is so much like, “I'm gonna start doing something.” What if instead productivity started with a calm mind and a calm sense of self and a well self? And that can include doing, that can include just sitting and existing.

That takes a big reframe for attorneys of that productivity can come from maybe doing nothing at all. This is awesome. I mean, can we just do this all the time?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, this was really fun.

[Kate Bridal]

This was so fun.

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, Rhia, I think I just need to work with you just like one-on-one.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Book a sesh. 

[Kate Bridal]

You got your one free question.

[Patrick Patino]

I mean, yeah, now everything else has to be paid because you're valuable. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes, absolutely. Pay Rhia.

[Patrick Patino]

You have to.

Otherwise people aren't going to be doing this work. It's important work. And we can't expect people to show up, particularly female lawyers who are doing this important work to show up and talk for free, present for free, educate us for free.

That's bullshit. And so I'm using this platform to say, pay them.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Pay up, pay up, pay up bitches.

[Kate Bridal]

Bitch better have my money.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Bitch better have my money. Reduce, reuse, recycle, Rhianna.

Outtro

[Kate Bridal]

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by growlforce. Thanks for listening!