[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

You know, Threes will sometimes say like, “I don't feel about things,” they just feel like they don't have time to like deal with their feelings in their mind.

[Kate Bridal]

You're like, “I'll really dive into that at another time once I'm done doing stuff.”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

 Yeah, we'll talk later, Kate. 

(All laugh)

[Kate Bridal]

Ashton is gonna break me down after we're done recording.

[Josey Hoff]

Have us both like in a therapy session crying.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

[Josey Hoff]

And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

[Kate Bridal]

And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions and maybe occasionally live up to our title.Welcome to the Legal Burnouts. 

Honey, honey. 

[Josey Hoff]

Yes, darling?

[Kate Bridal]

Do you want to do a podcast? 

[Josey Hoff]

I would love to, especially today. 

[Kate Bridal]

I know, I knew you were gonna say that because we are so excited about our guest today because as anyone who listens to us regularly knows, we are massive nerds about the Enneagram and talking about our types. 

[Josey Hoff]

Huge fans of our guest. 

[Kate Bridal]

Big fans of our guest.

We send her posts back and forth to each other all the time. Our guest today is Ashton Whitmore Over. She is an author, public speaker, community psychologist, and certified Enneagram educator, so we're so psyched! 

With a desire to see relationships strengthened, she created Enneagram Ashton in early 2019. She is the author of Enneagram for Relationships, The Two of Us, a Three-Year Couples Journal, and The Enneagram Made Simple.

She is on Instagram as Enneagram Ashton. Ashton, thank you so much for being here. We're like beyond excited.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here with you guys.

[Josey Hoff]

Oh, it's our pleasure for sure.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Josey, I think, sent me stuff about the Enneagram like right after we started the podcast. She was like, “I think that this could be really helpful in helping us work together.”

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

And since then, that was probably mid-summer of last year, we have obsessively both followed you. Well, she was probably following you already. I've obsessively followed you since then. We send your posts back and forth. 

So would love to hear from you a little bit of your background and how you came to the Enneagram and decided to make it what you do.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. I love the Enneagram and I'm so glad that you guys do too. And I know that if your listeners don't know about it, they're about to become obsessed. I am fully confident that that's going to happen. So I'm super excited to be here. 

I really discovered the Enneagram like any good psychology student would when we're learning about personality tests.

But really, I have a deep love for personality tests. Even from when I was like a young kid, I just always wanted to understand myself better, understand others, what have you. 

What I loved the most about the Enneagram over the other tests is that it's not about your behavior. Instead, it's about your motivation. 

And so, yes, we can learn our behaviors and understand our behaviors. But really, we can start to see true change in ourselves when we understand why we're doing things the way that we're doing them.

And that's what it comes down to with the Enneagram.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I think that's part of what pulled me in too was it felt, A, really accurate. And B, every time I thought it wasn't accurate, I would dive in and be like, oh, are you sure I'm not a Two or whatever?

 And then I would dive into the differences and be like, oh, no, no, no. Like really, I am a Three. 

You can learn so much about what your behaviors look like when you're unhealthy, what your habits look like when you're unhealthy, what you look like when you're healthy. And I found that so helpful.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, for sure. And that's what I love about it is it is a tool.

You don't just figure out your type and then just go on with your day or your life. You can use it as a tool to become a better version of yourself, to understand others better, just deepen those connections. So it can be super impactful in that sort of way.

[Josey Hoff]

I feel like for me, especially, it was really helpful in understanding how I work and helping me to kind of just see the patterns in myself where I tend to push myself too hard and the thing and the motivators for that. Like you said, why I'm pushing myself so hard. Being able to identify those things when they're happening has been super helpful for me in order to have a better balance in my work and life.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, I love that.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And it is, like you said, a great communication tool because like Josey can be like, “Hey, you're being a Three right now,” and it doesn't feel super personal. I'm just like, “Oh yeah, you're right, I am being a Three right now!”

You know, it's sort of like a way that we can call each other out on stuff that doesn't feel super personal.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. And without the Enneagram, you might look at a trait in the other person and think, “Why are they doing that?”

Or like, “Why are they acting that way?” But when you understand their Enneagram type, you can start to understand their behaviors even more.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. When my partner and I got together, I think it was like second week of knowing each other I sent him the Enneagram and I was like, “Please take this.”

(Kate laughs)

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yes. This is a requirement. 

[Kate Bridal]

We're going to find out how this is going to work out right now. 

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Amazing. 

[Kate Bridal]

So one of the great things about the Enneagram is it can help you kind of identify spots that might be problem areas for you or make you prone to burnout, and what burnout might kind of look like for you. So we would love it if you would walk us through some of that stuff for the different types.

Obviously, when you get to Three and Five, we'll probably each have something to say about it, but just so that our audience, if they have taken it or if they haven't taken it and they want to, they can kind of get some more insight about their burnout habits.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. And so what's interesting about the- I mean, there are a lot of interesting things about the Enneagram- but one of the interesting things, like I said, is that it is about your motivation. So your biggest fears and your biggest desires.

And then from those motivations come your stereotypical behaviors. It would make sense that each type is going to experience burnout. It's just the why behind kind of what you said, the why behind we experience burnout that could be different.

And just realizing that the things that cause my- so I'm a Two, the things that cause me burnout are going to look different than… Well, especially Josey. 

(All laugh)

That things that are going to look different, especially for Josey. 

I'm like thinking about what causes me to burnout. And I'm like, “Ah, Kate and I are pretty much the same.” Twos and Threes can be similar.

[Kate Bridal]

My best friend's a Two with a Three wing and I'm a Three with a Two wing. So we're like little... 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Peas in a pod. Yeah. So if we start with Enneagram One, you know, Enneagram one is called The Reformer. And so they are known to really just get focused on things needing to be correct, right, perfect. That's why they sometimes struggle with perfectionism. 

And so they can start to feel burnt out if like they're the only ones who are doing something as they perceive like the “right way.” Or if they're the only ones who are, you know, consistently doing household chores, if it's like they feel like they're carrying the weight on their shoulders.

And I'm not saying that like other types don't feel that way. It's just that because Ones often are like, “Things need to be done the right way, but I'm drowning in help because I won't let other people do things because they're not doing it the right way.”

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah. Yeah. My mom's a One and knowing these things now I get why it felt so tiring having to do so many of those things all the time on her own because she knew how she wanted them done.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And when you can't let that go, it's tough.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. And Ones like they are known to be super critical of mostly themselves. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

And so it's just like this inner spiral that they experience like when they're burnt out is like, “I can't believe I am like feeling this way. I should be able to do it all.” It's like a case of the “shoulds” always with Ones.

[Josey Hoff]

That makes sense. For those kind of telltale signs for Ones, what they should look for when they're burning out and then kind of how they could correct for that. What would that look like?

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. They're going to get more focused on criticism, more perfectionistic, inflexible, those kinds of things. More like focused on control. 

So, you know, recognizing that can be important and trying to figure out the root. Letting people help, relinquishing some of that control, things like that. 

[Kate Bridal]

Easier said than done.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Right. It all always is.

[Josey Hoff]

I have a lot of One in me, so I feel like that…

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I have a surprisingly little amount of One actually.

[Josey Hoff]

Really?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. The inner critic I don't relate to. 

[Josey Hoff]

Oh, I do for sure.

[Kate Bridal]

Even though my default emotion is shame. That one I do relate to.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, that's interesting. And then you said you're a Two, correct?

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I am. Yeah. So I can tell you a lot about burnout. 

[Josey Hoff]

Perfect.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober] 

Twos are called The Helper. And so they are stereotypically known to want to help other people and show up for other people. And so burnout comes clear as day for them when they're doing too much for other people and neglecting themselves and what they need to do for themselves.

That's why a lot of times Twos have a hard time saying no, because they want to feel needed. And so if I'm doing this thing for somebody else, it's going to make me feel needed. You know, that can lead to burnout.

I see it in my business when I'm like, “Oh, I just want to do everything for everyone.” And then I'm like, you know, having a hard time saying no and like holding a firm boundary, which is fine sometimes. But then when it leads to burnout, you know, that's when it can get sticky. 

But I think too, for Twos, they will know when they're feeling burnt out because what used to feel joyful for them when like doing things for other people, it starts to feel like a chore. And like, “I didn't really want to do that.” You know what I mean?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I think for Twos, it's really important to have almost like a heart check of, you know, before you say, “Yes, I'm going to do that thing,” like really just pause, because it's their natural tendency to just automatically be like, “Sure, I'll do that.” And instead, pause and be like, “Wait a second, do I really want to do that?”

It's like needing to get into a habit to ask yourself, like, “Is that something I really want to do or something that I feel like I have to do?”

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Imposing maybe a mandatory waiting period for yourself before you respond to something, which can be really, really hard. And I have a question a little bit about how much you're, because there are also wings.

So for those who don't know, you have a core type and then whichever number on either side of that type- So I'm a Three, so I could either be a Two wing or a Four wing. And I happen to be a Two wing because that is the number next to mine that I have the most in common with or whatever.

I'm explaining this poorly. 

(Kate laughs.)

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

No, you got it. 

[Kate Bridal]

So how much does the wing really affect- Because I relate to that so hard. I was always the like, you don't even have to tell me to jump. I'm like going higher than you ever asked me to, would have asked me to before you even think about it. 

I feel like that Two wing pulls me.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

The Two wing is definitely going to pull you. Like your wings exist. You pull characteristics from them when your motivations stay with your main type.

But that being said, Twos and Threes can experience the same burnout for the same reasons. It's just that you're- I loved how you just said you'll go as high as somebody needs you to. But it's for that- it makes you feel valued.

[Kate Bridal]

Mmhmm.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

 And respected. And successful.

[Kate Bridal]

Mmhmm.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Versus for Twos, it's because they feel loved and needed.

[Josey Hoff]

Wow.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

And so like very similar, but like still different, you know? 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah!

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

So that's why I said that you and I probably have similar things that burn us out because they do look similar. It's just that our motivations are a little bit different.

But to segue into Threes, like Threes, they really tie their identity into what they do. Not just like for others, but just… do in general. (Kate and Josey laugh.) And so like their burnout is going to come from doing too much and not taking time to rest and chill out a little bit.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, especially when I'm excited about something because I am very much a doer. I always say I went to law school basically on a whim. Like, yeah, I thought about it, but I did very little research.

I was just like, “Oh, that's the path to what I want. Then I will be doing that now and I'll figure it out as I go.” 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

That has gotten me into times when I am doing way too much all at once because I was excited and I was like, “Well, I have to do everything to keep this feeling going.”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah.

[Josey Hoff]

And on the flip side of if you're not doing enough in your own mind, how that affects you is a big thing too.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

The shame. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yep.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

It's an identity thing. Whereas, I'm getting ahead of myself, but the Sevens, they all also need to constantly be doing, but it's not really an identity thing. It's like the act of physically being on the go.

Whereas for Threes, they're like, “I need to be doing because it shows me in a specific light if I continue to do these things.”

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Josey Hoff]

That makes sense. 

[Kate Bridal]

“And if I don't do, I will fade into oblivion and no one will care about me.”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

“No one wants me, thinks I matter.” It's a shame spiral.

[Kate Bridal]

It is. I can't just exist. It's not enough for me.

[Josey Hoff]

Right. Knowing you as well as I do, this makes so much sense. There's also the point of when you go to your not healthy versus your healthy state. 

For Threes, I don't remember what that was and what those signs are.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, so you have your stress number and your growth number. Stress number is when you take on the unhealthy characteristics of that number. Then the growth number is when you take on the healthy or the positive characteristics of that number.

For the Three, they go to the unhealthy side of the Nine when they're stressed. So this can very easily be tied to burnout too because we become stressed, right, and so we're going to naturally have our stress response. For Threes that looks like being so overwhelmed with all of the things that you have to do that you don't want to do any of them. (Kate sighs audibly.) And you become a little procrastinator, sloth-like.

[Kate Bridal]

Mmhmm!

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

We call Nines the sloth. But just frozen and have a hard time getting started, getting motivated.

[Kate Bridal]

Then shame yourself about your lack of motivation and lack of doing. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. 

[Josey Hoff]

Spiral.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, it's a really fun circle to be in, I tell you.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Super fun. It's super fun.

[Kate Bridal]

Then our sweet, sweet Fours.

[Josey Hoff]

My little sister. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Awwww. So their burnout is going to come from emotions, emotional responses, big feelings, things like that. They're called The Individualist and so they really do want to be seen as special or unique or significant.

Anytime then that they feel like they're having to prove to people that they matter or that they're important or they're significant, that's going to lead to burnout. They just really want people to seek to understand them and to listen to them and try to be in tune with their emotions and feelings as they are with you. 

So Twos, Threes, and Fours are going to be the ones that struggle with their identity.

 So for Fours, it's just like, am I enough? And so their burnout is going to come from continuously feeling like they aren't enough.

[Kate Bridal]

And in a different way than Threes. Well, I guess Threes, we’re like, “I am the most, I'm the best, but also-” 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

“Am I doing enough?” 

[Kate Bridal]

“-I will stop being this great if I stop doing for one second.”

Fours are just like, am I- 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Am I enough? 

[Kate Bridal]

Wow.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Not what I'm doing, but me.

[Kate Bridal]

Right. 

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, that makes so much sense. I see that in my sister often.

But it's interesting because she also is a wing Five. So we kind of share that similarity, but I have zero Four.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Oh, that's funny.

[Josey Hoff]

We don't share that at all, which is kind of interesting. But I see that with the emotional side of Twos, Threes, and Fours that I have in my life of that part of it really starting to burn them out. 

For types that are prone to emotional burnout first, what are some of the ways that they can identify and then just mitigate it?

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Right. Well, it's a practice. Everything is a practice.

But for Fours, just recognizing that not everybody is going to understand you and that's okay. This is why often when Fours are stressed, they might have attention-seeking behaviors because they just want to be seen. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oohhhh.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

So just recognizing when you're moving into that spot and redirect your attention to something that makes you feel happy, makes you feel the way that you're wanting other people to make you feel.

[Kate Bridal]

That's so interesting. And what you said earlier too about, just to go back a minute, about… Twos want to feel needed and Threes want to feel valued: I like feeling chosen and not needed.

(Josey and Ashton laugh)

 I say that about myself all the time and I never thought of it as a Three thing! 

[Josey Hoff]

Ohhhhhh!

[Kate Bridal]

But that's literally what I say about myself. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

That's so funny.

[Kate Bridal]

Because it means I have value if I'm chosen.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. But for me, it's like, “Oh, they like me.”

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. 

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, that makes so much sense.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, let's get to our resident Five. Josey's like, “I don't want to go.”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

“Please don't go there, please don't go there.”

[Josey Hoff]

I saw how close I hit for you so now I'm nervous.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

So Fives, you know, they're The Investigators. So they want to know all of the things and then they want other people to know that they know all of the things. (Kate and Josey laugh) So they want to share the things with other people, you know. 

So what do you think the burnout comes from?

[Kate Bridal]

Josey, what would you say?

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Pop quiz. 

[Josey Hoff]

Needing to know all the things?

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I felt like I was just asking my students. “What do you think the answer is?”

[Josey Hoff]

I felt like I was back in class too. And I was like, “Shit, I didn't read the homework.”

(All laugh.)

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, it comes from like that need to be the most competent and knowledgeable person. And that's a big weight to carry, you know?

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I imagine in your field it was an incredible weight to carry.

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) Yeah.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, it did carry a lot of weight. And I think for some reason I get stuck at the point... It's like writing an email. 

I will spend the entire day on an email until I have looked at every single word, the definition, and made sure everything fits perfectly together and I know exactly what I'm talking about. There's no room for me to be questioned.

Because if I don't, I feel like that's- it's like an intelligence thing. It's like I'm not competent or I don't know what I'm talking about. That's where I find my value in my work is being competent.

So it holds me up all the time from going further.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I just can't even imagine a life like that.

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) Me either. It's kind of funny because starting this podcast, we were talking about all the stuff that we thought was problematic in the legal industry and how people we knew were all burning out. And somebody who was with us was like, “Oh, you should start a podcast.”

And I was like, “OKAY.” And Josey was like, “Yeah, sure.” And a couple of weeks later, I was like, “So we're really doing that, right? Like we're going to do this. We're going to talk about it. I'm the Three, let's do, do, do.”

And she was like, “Oh, I don't know. Do you think we should? Do you think that we're-?” And I was like, “What are you talking about?”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

And still sometimes we'll have a topic and she's just like, “I don't know if I should speak about that.” And then she goes on to say a bunch of really intelligent things about it. And I'm like, “That right there- Why don't you feel like you can talk about it?”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

But she's just like, “Because I don't know everything.”

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, it is.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

And that's the thing is like they feel like I can't I can't confidently speak on something if I don't know everything. And so then that act of like needing to know everything holds them back because then they never move forward with what they do know.

[Josey Hoff]

Oh my God.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Which is usually a lot.

[Josey Hoff]

You just blew my mind with that sentence because that's exactly what it is, is I feel like I've become stuck in something and can't go further. It's interesting because like Kate and I have both experienced the feeling frozen or like the like you can't accomplish something. 

For me, it's because I'm afraid I'll do it wrong or I'll be incorrect and not competent at something. And that will be shown. And then that's where my value comes from.

The burnout doesn't come from taking on to meet things necessarily or wanting to do all of the things.

[Kate Bridal]

It's wanting to do the things you are doing to the utmost.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah.

[Josey Hoff]

Exactly.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

And wanting to be like the most knowledgeable. And I can see why you can relate to a One because that's also very similar to a One.

It's just that for Ones, they get stuck in like the perfection and like Fives get stuck almost like in their head. 

[Josey Hoff]

Yes. That's true. And I'm a wing Six.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

So double head. 

[Kate Bridal]

All in the brain. 

[Josey Hoff]

Exactly. (Laughing) So I'm just always in my head. I'm always overthinking everything. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like with the wing Six, it kind of adds a level of anxiety about there being instability or about not being able to meet needs. It's a really interesting combination.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, because so I'll just keep going into the Six. But the Six is The Loyalist and they are the ones that stereotypically can get caught up in like worst case scenario thinking, anxiety because of the worst case scenarios. 

And so then they are known to like try to plan and prepare to like mitigate anything that could possibly go wrong. So a Five with a Six wing, you know, is going to get stuck in their head even more because they might think about, you know, “If I write this email and the definitions are incorrect, what could go wrong? Because I wrote this email incorrectly.”

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, wow. That makes even more sense!

[Josey Hoff]

And it's crazy how far my brain goes with it. I will be like, “This is going to happen, and then this could happen, and this could,” and it's just like this entire forward thinking and I'm like, “Okay, if that happens, how am I going to deal with that?”

[Kate Bridal]

Wow.

[Josey Hoff]

I have to be ready for it. Otherwise, I won't be prepared or competent when it happens. I always think about the Six when it comes to like that anxiety part, feeling like the worst thing could happen so often.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. So Josey, what do you think Sixes experience burnout about? (All laugh) All of that overthinking and over-planning.

[Kate Bridal]

Catastrophizing.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, catastrophizing, needing to constantly be like vigilant.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, that must feel super unstable and unsafe. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, so Sixes really value like safety, security, things like that.

So whenever they are constantly and consistently feeling like a threat to that security, it's just going to lead to burnout.

[Kate Bridal]

And can that be in instability in small things as well?

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

For sure. So when I think about, you know, like the workplace, even the past like four years, since the pandemic, that kind of instability can be really difficult for Sixes. Job stability as a whole.

“Am I doing an okay job? Am I not?” Like they experience a lot of self-doubt too.

They often also freeze just because they're like scared to make the next step in case it's like an unsafe step, right? So I imagine if we're talking about like burnout, they will likely continue to stay because the other side scares them more.

[Kate Bridal]

Wow. My sister and I were talking about- she's an Eight, like very much. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

So is mine.

[Kate Bridal]

I'm also almost an Eight. My husband's also an Eight.

[Josey Hoff]

My brother is an Eight!

[Kate Bridal]

I love Eights. But I'm guessing she has a big chunk of Six because she's like, “I see way down the road, I think of everything that could go wrong, and I have to think about how it's going to end.” 

But she's like, “In job interviews, I call it being a problem solver.” 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

That’s funny.

[Kate Bridal]

“A troubleshooter,” that's what she said, “I'm a troubleshooter.” And that's what it is. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, AKA, I'm terrified.

(Kate and Josey laugh)

[Kate Bridal]

AKA I am living in fear.

[Josey Hoff]

All the time. Everything could crumble at any moment.

[Kate Bridal]

And it's going to, and I need to be prepared. 

Speaking of my family members, my mom, as it turns out, is a Seven, which I don't know as much about. But I think she's the only one that I know of that I know.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I have a lot of Seven friends. So the Seven is The Enthusiast. So they're the most like extroverted, outgoing, energetic.

 Like I said before, they also will experience burnout by like continuing to do. 

I actually posted a reel the other day about Sevens and, you know, regretting having plans every single night. I will say that most of the comments, the Sevens were like, “No regrets!”

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

It was like, “You guys are lying to yourselves.” Because once they like, hit that wall, they're like, “Oh, I've been again, just constantly like doing, doing, doing, and haven't had a chance to like recharge myself.” So with that, they can experience a lot of burnout, but also just like any sort of negativity is going to lead to burnout for them.

[Josey Hoff]

Oh interesting.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

In a job, for example, if they're constantly faced with like negativity or negative remarks or negative attitudes, negative people, that is the biggest thing for them that is a challenge. And so they're going to automatically want to like avoid that and get rid of that negativity.

[Kate Bridal]

Do they like try and spin it themselves or do they just avoid or maybe both?

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, probably a combination. They are known to like spin things into positive. But unlike Sixes, like if they feel negativity, they will leave. They won't hang around if it's negatively affecting them. 

If they have a Six wing, they might be more prone to instead of like the Eight wing, but negativity really bothers them.

[Kate Bridal]

So the distinction between Threes and Sevens, to my impression, and tell me if I'm wrong: Threes like are constantly doing because of what it says about them and for kind of the achievement and recognition, whereas Sevens are doing more to just have experiences, basically.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Well, they're searching for contentment.

[Kate Bridal]

Not for what it says about them.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, the Threes is always going to be tied back to like that identity piece.

[Josey Hoff]

For me, the, I think the seven is my unhealthy, my stress number. And so, and it made so much sense when I read it too, because when I become overwhelmed or stressed or burnt out, my immediate thought is “It's time to leave. Let's go.”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

That's so interesting. 

[Josey Hoff]

Go somewhere else. Like I feel very restless and I'm like, I can't do this.

I'm going to go move to another city and start over and do something else. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, that's so interesting. 

[Josey Hoff]

I'm not even kidding. I've done that. 

[Kate Bridal]

Burn it down.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, I just bolt.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

It makes sense. Because for Fives, they're like typically so like self-contained almost. And then they like reach that breaking point where it's like, “Oh, see ya. Done. Done with that.”

[Josey Hoff]

There's like an ongoing joke that once I hit, you don't know that I'm going to hit the point until I hit the point. And then I just…

[Kate Bridal]

She's gone. 

[Josey Hoff]

See ya.

[Kate Bridal]

I'll be in Hawaii. I'll see you later.

[Josey Hoff]

Which I will be next week. It's exactly, I'm a little stressed. So now I'm going to leave. Going to Hawaii.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I was going to say, do we need to have a deeper conversation about what’s causing you to flee to Hawaii?

(All laugh.)

[Josey Hoff]

That could take us hours here. Yeah, that's so interesting, though. I do have that tendency to just leave, you know, and kind of distract. 

I think that's maybe another part of it is feeling that need to distract myself from whatever is happening. And I found that with other Sevens that I know, that's kind of a thing. Okay, this, let's distract. 

Let's like leave those feelings and find something else.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

That's definitely a huge Seven characteristic. They can get distracted, unfocused. And so like the Fives, they're like, “Okay, let me bury all of this hard stuff and distract myself with something fun or different.”

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, let's get to-

[Josey Hoff]

The notorious-

[Kate Bridal]

-the notorious Eights. I seriously, when I took this quiz, my Eight and my Three were like almost the same. But I'm definitely…

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Eights and Threes look very similar on the surface.

[Josey Hoff]

Interesting.

[Kate Bridal]

I care so deeply about what everyone thinks of me at all times. So I know I'm not an Eight. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

That's the biggest difference right there, yeah. (Kate and Josey Laugh.) There it is. There she is. There she be.

[Josey Hoff]

There she be.

[Kate Bridal]

Thar she blows.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

So Eights, you know, they are The Challenger. So they're all about fighting for injustices and protecting themselves and other people. 

I think burnout for them comes from spending so much time sticking up for other people and like fighting other people's battles that they just are tired, you know, of doing that.

Or like fighting for the right thing, fighting for things to be meaningful and correct. And their passion kind of lies in that. And I think when those things don't go their way, then they can start to feel like… I mean, it's kind of dramatic to say that they don't have a purpose, but their identity is in like fighting for what they believe in.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

And then if it's draining them, then that can lead to burnout, which I imagine happens a lot in your field. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's kind of where I burned out actually was… I was in nonprofit and I was doing homelessness prevention in LA during COVID.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Oh, say no more. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes, exhausting. And as a, you know, I also have a ton of empathy cause I have my little two wing going on. That was really hard. And then, yeah, just feeling like I was consistently beating my head against a wall and nothing was actually changing.

And I was like, obviously things can be better. Why doesn't everyone know? 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah.

[Josey Hoff]

That would be my kind of the thing I'm interested in is my brother's also an Eight. And I feel like he's very much that same way of wanting to fight for things. You know, the field that he went into and everything is very much about making things better and fighting for something that's wrong to be changed.

When it doesn't happen or it's just constantly running into like red tape or something of that sort, you start to feel like you can't keep fighting that battle. And you just need to step away from it completely.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. So you know what they do? 

[Kate Bridal]

Get mad?

[Ashtong Whitmoyer-Ober]

Well, they get mad. Then they withdraw completely and shut everybody out and just block it out, block everybody out. And that looks like going to the Five. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

When they're unhealthy or stressed.

[Josey Hoff]

It's so interesting because it's going to the Five that's unhealthy for my brother. And it's going to the Eight that is better for me. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

That's healthy for you.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. And I know- so we haven't talked a ton about the default emotions. We mentioned that mine is shame. Yay.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

(Laughing) Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

So there are three triads of it, right? 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. 

[Kate Bridal]

So will you just go over that really fast and then we'll get to our precious Nines?

[Josey Hoff]

Oh, I don't know this!

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. So there are three triads that separate the Enneagram into like three different sections.

And each section contains three types that have shared characteristics. So Twos, Threes, and Fours are in what we call the Heart Triad. So they receive information through their heart, and they feel about things before they move forward. 

And then their shared emotional connection is shame. So I kind of mentioned this before, but for Twos, it's, am I like doing enough for other people? For Threes, it's, am I like achieving enough that it's a reflection on me? And then for Fours, it's, am I just like enough as a whole? And then they all want to create significance or meaning from experiences.

The Five, Six, and Seven, they're in the Head Triad. So they receive information through their head. Then they think things through or overthink things through before moving forward. 

Their shared emotional struggle is fear. So for Fives, it's the fear of like their resources being depleted. So their personal space, their knowledge, things like that. 

For Sixes, it's that like main connection to fear. And then for Sevens, it's the fear of like negativity, emotional pain, things like that. 

And then the Eight, Nine, and One, they're in what we call the Gut Triad. So they're going to receive information through their gut and then instinctively respond. 

The Nine is the anomaly here where they will like instinctively respond to not respond or like to let somebody else do it because they prefer to kind of take a back seat. 

They have a shared emotional struggle of anger. I think this is where you were going with this, Kate.

(Kate and Ashton laugh.)

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

So Eight, anger is just like a natural emotional expression. They don't really think much about it. It's like happiness, sadness, anger. 

Nines will bury their anger and then it will come out as like being passive aggressive. And then Ones will say, “I'm not angry, I'm frustrated,” or “I'm annoyed.” 

And like that looks like anger to the rest of us.

[Kate Bridal]

Josey, you look like you're relating.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah. What they want to do is to fight like injustices.

[Kate Bridal]

My sister has even said before we were even, she even knew this was part of the Enneagram. She was like, “I feel everything as anger first.” Straight to anger. And then, you know, she can figure it out from there.

And she doesn't always get outwardly angry, but like that's the first. And I'm like, “Ooh, I don't relate to that.” And then I'm like, “Oh yeah, no, if you're mad, it's my fault” because I, mine's shame.

[Asthon Whitmoyer-Ober]

I must've done something. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yep. Everyone's mad at me. So self-centered really. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I know. I'm the same way though.

“Oh, you're in a bad mood? It must be because of me.”

[Kate Bridal]

It's all me. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Maybe it's something I'm wearing. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I must've said something wrong. Let's go back over every word I've ever said to you in our entire history.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, literally. 

[Josey Hoff]

I hate that you guys feel that way. Cause like, it's no, you shouldn't feel shame. 

You're kicking ass. You always are. Threes are always kicking ass.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, she, she knows this about me now. So I'm like, if she doesn't respond to a text or something, she's like, she knows that I'm like-

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

My worst nightmare.

[Kate Bridal]

“It's because she's mad at me or I said the wrong thing.” So then I'll like send like nine follow-up texts with like, “Oh, sorry if that sounded blah, blah, blah.” 

And she's like, Kate, “I was literally just at work. Calm down.”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Like, oh yeah. Sounds like a similar conversation I have. One of my best friends is an Eight.

 And I'll be like, “I'm really sorry that I like said this.” And she's like, “Why are you even apologizing for that? Like, it didn't even cross my mind.”

And I was like, “I thought you were mad at me. I don't know.”

[Kate Bridal]

Cause you're always mad, you're an Eight! No. “Admit it, you were a little bit.” 

Well, I know that our time is limited. So I want to make sure we get to Nines because I just found out one of my good friends from high school is a Nine.

 And I think she's one of the only Nines that I know.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Nines are great. So Nines, they are just constantly wanting to like maintain the peace and conflict is like their biggest fear. So any time that they have to continuously face conflict or tension or confrontation, you know, that's going to be a direct path to burnout for them.

The tension piece specifically, I mean, all of them, but the tension piece, you know, like that walking on eggshells. That's going to be the fast track to burnout for them as well as, you know… They're kind of their worst enemies because they want to get the things done. But sometimes they really just have a hard time getting started.

But then that can lead to more burnout because they're like frustrated- again, with the anger- they're frustrated that they can't get the things done or that they procrastinated the project, things like that. Again, it's kind of all the cycle, but for them, it's like a cycle of I'm frustrated at myself because I can't find the motivation to get started… But then I'm frustrated with myself because I can't find the motivation to get started…

And then I can't get the motivation because I'm frustrated and I don't want to do anything… It's just a constant.

[Kate Bridal]

A terrible spiral. Nines are really interesting to me because what I've heard is they're kind of like the most laid back, but the idea of a Nine with a One wi- like they have to be either a One wing or an Eight wing, right? Which are- neither of which are particularly laid back necessarily.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Right. It is definitely the most interesting like placement of the types because the One and the Eight like are pretty strong personalities, I would say. And I think that's why Nines are there because Nines are like, “Sure, I want you to take the lead, I want you to decide.” 

And they're very easygoing and adaptable and chameleon-esque, similar to the Threes. I see a lot more Nines in the One wing than I do Nines with an Eight wing. 

[Josey Hoff]

I could see that.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

The Nines with the One wing, they're going to be a little bit more detail oriented, perfectionistic. The Nines with the Eight are going to be more like decisive and stating their opinions. My online business manager, my OBM is a Nine with an Eight wing. 

She's like all business because she has like that like relaxed and easygoing posture, you know? But then like when it's time, she's like decisive, gets the job done.

[Josey Hoff]

That sounds amazing.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Confident in her decisions, you know? 

[Josey Hoff]

Can I be in a Nine with an Eight wing? That sounds very, very good.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Everyone always wants to be a Nine. They're like, “Wow, they're so like patient.”

[Kate Bridal] 

They got their shit together.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

And easygoing, yeah.

[Josey Hoff]

It's funny that you said with the one and the Eight being anger and One identifying it as frustration or being annoyed. I think I said I love a lot of One. I don't think I feel anger and I always say it's frustration or I'm annoyed or I'm overwhelmed.

The other day someone was like, “Josey, you're mad. Like just say you're mad. Just say it.”

[Kate Bridal]

It’s okay.

[Josey Hoff]

But I’m like, “I think I'm just frustrated. I don't want to be mad.”

[Kate Bridal]

I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, oh my God. That's something-

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

That's my worst nightmare.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

I'd rather have someone mad at me than disappointed in me any day of the week. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Same. But also don't be mad at me, thank you. 

[Kate Bridal]

But also, yeah, I can't take any of it just to be clear.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, I can't take any of it. I just need you to like me and we'll be good.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, it's kind of amazing, honestly, that you are so out there because I think about this about myself as I put more content out, is I'm like, I'm way too soft to be doing this. If anybody says anything that I perceive is even slightly critical, even if it's idiotic, I'm just like, it takes me out. And so how do you deal with like being a Two who's so like out there?

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah!

[Kate Bridal]
I'm sure people say stupid shit on your stuff all the time.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Oh, all the time. And literally, speaking of my OBM, when I was meeting with her this week, she was like, Wow, you've really come a long way from like the negative comments.” Because they used to like derail me for the entire day. And now I just look at them and I'm like, “Idiots.” 

(Kate laughs) 

So I mean, that's a huge like growth point, right? Like, and I mean, I kind of had to because I was getting them all the time and I was like, I can't slow down and like fully embrace this negative comment. Like, I just have to let it go, you know?

But also, if you're listening to this, please don't send me a negative comment.

[Kate Bridal]

But please don't be mean to us. We cannot handle it.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, I cannot handle it. And I say that it won't put me in a bad mood, but it might. So don't do it.

[Josey Hoff]

Everyone send them to me. 

[KateBridal

Oh yeah, Josey doesn't care. 

[Josey Hoff]

Don't care at all.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

I can't imagine a world.

[Kate Bridal]

I know. She'll be like, it'll come up later. She'll be like, “Oh yeah, I got a message a few weeks ago about a guy who said blah, blah, blah,” something horrible to her.

And I'm like, if that had been me, I would have been crying on the phone to you the next second. There's no way. She's just like, “Whatever.”

[Josey Hoff]

And probably it comes back to the competency thing. If I don't feel that your comment has any like rationale to it, then your opinion doesn't matter. You clearly didn't listen to what I said, or you didn't read what I said, or you didn't understand the topic or something.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, you missed. 

[Josey Hoff]

And if you're not going to try to understand something, then I just don't, I don't care.

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

That's so amazing.

[Kate Bridal]

I love that, I know.

 That's the nice thing about having Eights in my life is I have a lot of people to be like, “Why the fuck do you care?”

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yes. My sister, she's been fighting my battle for 34 years. That's what I say. Thank goodness, because I can't do it. 

[Kate Bridal]

I know, right? Well, this was such an awesome conversation.

This was so much fun. Obviously, people can find you on Instagram at Enneagram Ashton. Is there anything else, though, that you would like to plug?

Anything you'd like to promote?

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yeah, check out my website. I always have things going on, speaking events, courses, digital products. It's just enneagramashton.com and I would love to see you there.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, I think a lot of attorneys could use it because if you're an attorney, trying not to burn out is really, really tough. There's plenty of stuff about the profession that's going to get you, so know thyself and it will help. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Yes.

[Josey Hoff]

Yeah, and it's so much better to understand how you're going to burn out before you burn out than afterwards because I discovered it after my burnout and it's more of been me going back and forgiving myself or reconciling those things after the fact. But knowing this and this information that you shared is going to be great for those currently going through it or will go through it. Thank you so much.

[Kate Bridal]

Thank you so much. 

[Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober]

Thanks for having me.

[Josey Hoff]

It was a pleasure.

[Kate Bridal]

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening