Kate Bridal: Usually Josey and I are on here like 15 minutes early preening like parakeets in the camera.

(Rhia Batchelder laughs)

Josey Hoff: Yeah, which is what you guys get to see me do now. You're welcome.

Rhia Batchelder: No, I'm happy because I got a chance to do that alone. So thank you.

Josey: My main reason for getting on early is so that I can fix myself. 

(Kate laughs)

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law.

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 10

Kate: Honey, honey.

Josey: Yes, darling?

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

Josey: I sure do.

Kate: Fantastic, because today we have Rhia Batchelder on with us, who is a former Biglaw litigator. She practiced for about six years prior to burning out, which is a long time to last, I gotta say. She ultimately founded Rebuild with Rhia, which is her business that helps professionals prevent and navigate burnout, and to help employers make anti-burnout culture shifts, which is so awesome.

So we are really, really excited to have you on with us today, Rhia. Thank you so much for being here!

Rhia: Of course, I am so excited. Thank you for having me.

Josey: We're so thrilled.

Kate: Yeah. We haven't had someone who's specifically focused on burnout, and it’s so cool.

Rhia: Thank you. I do work with all types of professionals, but I do tend to work with attorneys at a higher rate because lawyers are burning out at a lot higher rates than the average worker. 

Josey: Can't imagine why that would be.

(Kate laughs)

Rhia: Unclear why, we have no idea. 

Josey: So unclear that we still don't know what, you know, made us want to do this podcast, you know?

Kate: We just keep doing the podcast with no answers whatsoever. 

So we would love to hear a little bit about your journey into the law, and then also your tale of burnout and sort of what made you decide to really turn it around and start fixing it for other people.

Rhia: Yeah, so interestingly, I wanted to be a lawyer from a really young age. I think it was like around age eight, I started telling everyone I wanted to be a lawyer. And it was strange because I know no lawyers. There are no lawyers in my family. Like, my parents didn't graduate college, so I just made it up, apparently, or saw it on a show. (Josey laughs) One of my favorite movies was Liar Liar. So I wonder if that inspired me. 

Kate: Ohhhh!

Josey: That's a great movie!

Kate: Which is extra funny, because it's not really like a rosy portrayal of lawyers.

Rhia: No, absolutely not. So I don't know what was going on there. But I always wanted to be a lawyer. And then as I kind of, you know, started taking classes in politics and government, all those things, I was like, okay, yes. And I will say I do not regret going to law school. You know, going to law school shaped the way that I think, the way that I research, the way that I can argue.

I went to NYU for undergrad and I graduated in three years, classic overachiever life. 

Kate: Yep.

Rhia: And then I ended up going to the University of Chicago on a full-ride scholarship, and then practiced in Biglaw in New York City at top firms for, yeah, those six years. So that was my journey into law. 

And then, I mean, my burnout story is kind of obvious, right? I worked crazy, crazy hours in really intense work environments. But for me, the thing that really burned me out was the culture aspect of things. I can work really hard. I can work in atmospheres with high standards. I was working on cases that are on front page news or are top secret, like very, very serious cases. I've even worked on multibillion dollar disputes, so a lot is at risk for the client. And that is something that I could mostly manage. 

But things like, you know, being treated like I don't have autonomy, being disrespected, talked over, all of those things that kind of add an extra layer of stress to every single thing you're doing at work were the main drivers of my burnout. When I burned out, I was on this long matter with nasty discovery that I was managing a lot on my own. It was really boring, really tedious. And my managers were kind of always like, why isn't this getting done faster? A lot of snappiness from managers. 

And then it was COVID and a lot of things were happening socially. And it just felt really, like, challenging to get like yelled at for small, you know, little tiny things when you're doing so much work, navigating a pandemic, navigating, you know, social justice uprisings and the potential of the impending election that was very serious to me as someone who studied politics and history.

So all of that was going on and I just felt like I had no support at work. I was treated just like I didn't really matter and that's what drove my burnout. I’ve learned sense that I really struggle with being treated that way. I mean that is why I now run my own company despite all the stressors that come with being an entrepreneur.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: Not having to deal with an authority figure who is disrespectful or not thoughtful, all of those things, has been a big relief in my life. 

So all of 2020, I was burning out, and by the end of the year, it was so severe. I was irritable. I was making small mistakes, which is very unlike me. I had very low motivation. I was just frustrated all the time. I was cynical. I was like, why does this matter? And I started signing off earlier and earlier. I think there was one point I remember I set a boundary for myself that I was going to sign off at 7 and make dinner for myself. And that is wild in Biglaw life, like 7 PM is not a time that you're just allowed to be offline. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: And I wasn't answering emails. And so I started kind of acting in a way that is egregious as an attorney, and started taking care of myself.

Ultimately through like soul-searching and interviewing and trying to think about what's next, I decided to leave the profession entirely and really start focusing on this work, because I felt like there was such a need for it. I was doing so much research myself to figure out what's going on with me, how to heal, how to prevent it. It was pretty scary. There wasn't a ton of resources out there on, here's what you do for burnout, here's the type of support you can get. 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: So, just researching a lot about stress and stressors, and what causes burnout, and what contributes, and corporate culture and organizational support and all of these things. What the hell, let's launch your own company and see what we can do.

Kate: I don't know if you intended it this way, but your sentence where you said, “I started acting in a way that was egregious as a lawyer, and taking care of myself.” And I feel like you meant those as two separate things, but I was like, “Yeah, that is often seen as acting in a way that's egregious when you're an attorney,” is–

Josey: Yup.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: -- you're taking care of yourself, you're setting boundaries and… not always welcomed.

Josey: No.

Rhia: No, it's not. It's a huge problem among lawyers for sure, but also a lot of overachievers. I've learned this just working with people in different professions. A lot of us learn from a very young age, like, hey, you're gonna get these gold stars if you push really hard and achieve at this level that is really high. And so we set that standard for ourselves. And to get there consistently over time, a lot of people cut sleep. A lot of people cut having lunch or meals. A lot of people cut friendship. A lot of people cut…

Josey: All of it.

Rhia: (Laughing) Yeah, all of it at once. There's so many different things, but it's a really big problem. So that's why I love working with individuals too, because there's often like a lot of small realistic shifts that you can make to just start showing up for yourself better. And I think it's important. Like we have to deconstruct ourselves from that super intense, capitalist drive to achieve, achieve above all else. 

In law especially,when you're working regularly 14 hour days, like where is the time to show up for yourself? There's not a lot.

Josey: No. Absolutely not.

Kate: It's funny, Josey and I have been obsessed with the Enneagram. 

Rhia: Oooo.

Josey: I was just thinking this, Kate! Ah!

(Rhia and Kate laugh)

Kate: So I don't know what you are, Rhia, or if you know your type?

Rhia: I don't. 

Kate: Oh okay. 

Rhia: So I've done the test a couple of times and I got frustrated because I was like three. 

Kate: I have three that are really close too. Do you remember what your primary one was?

Rhia: I think it was an Eight? I can’t remember though.

Kate: Makes sense.

Rhia: What is the Eight? Isn't it like the intense one?

Josey: It’s like The Challenger. 

Kate: Challenger, yeah, they're like rebellious. So I'm like a Three, Eight, Two. So I'm- It wouldn't surprise me if you're also a Three actually, a ton of lawyers that I know are Threes. 

Josey: Yeah, it’s so weird.

Kate: You are defined by your achievements. 

Rhia: Oh.

Kate: Achievement is what gives you value. And if you are not achieving and you're not striving for something, you're worthless. That is kind of the three, like, core. And I was like, “Ouch.” (Rhia laughs) But uh-huh. And then so many other attorneys are like, “Oh yeah, I'm a Three,” “I'm a Three,” “I'm a Three.” And I just, I would love to see research on like the proportion of attorneys that are Threes.

Rhia: Yes! Okay. I'm gonna take it again. 

Kate: Josey’s a Five.

Rhia: What’s Five?

Josey: It's The Investigator. Basically, my self-worth rides on being like helpful and competent. And so if I am not an absolute expert at something in my mind, if I have not like mastered something, I will not speak about it. I don't want to do anything until I feel like I have enough knowledge to do it perfectly.

Rhia: Wow. I'm gonna take it.

Josey: You'll have to let us know. What's interesting is that both of ours, one of our core things that we're prone to is burnout because of that kind of perfectionist need to achieve. It's that personality drive- which are people that get into the law- to be seen as successful, that so much of our identity and self-worth rides on that.

Rhia: Yeah. Being around other lawyers, it's like you do kind of get sucked into that energy too. 

Josey: Yeah.

Rhia: When I went to law school, I was like, “I wanna help people, I wanna make a difference.” Impact litigation was, like, the dream. And somehow I ended up in Biglaw doing securities work for six years? What happened to me? 

Kate: Yeah. I've heard that narrative a lot. I also went in determined, like I'm gonna help people. And I don't know if it's cause I was a little older when I went into law school or because I had a professor very early on be like, “Do not let go of that because people are gonna try and make you.”

Rhia: They do.

Kate: I managed to not do that. But the influences are so heavy. And the need to compare yourself to everybody else. Everything's on a curve, right? 

Rhia: Ugh, I forgot about the curve.

Kate: Somebody has to be less-than. They expect you to use it as motivation. I'm like, I don't find that motivating, trying to beat out my classmates. I don't know.

Rhia: Oh my gosh, so many things. First of all, when I got to law school, I was like, these people are the smartest people I've ever been around in my life.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: How did I get here? What is happening? 

My first cold call was the first day (Kate gasps) because my last name’s, Batchelder, B-A. I totally blacked out. I don't remember one thing about what happened, except for I do remember at one point I glanced out at my textbook, because I read the cases, I took notes, and he was like, “The answers aren't down there, look at me.”

Kate: Ugh!

Rhia: There are a lot of professors at U Chicago that did this kind of bullying thing. 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: I had one professor one time: Someone raised their hand asked a question. And then the professor didn't answer, went to the whiteboard. Just started hangman, made us guess answers. The answer was “idiot.”

Kate: That is so upsetting. I have done a little bit of like shitting on Cornell, but like I never saw anything like that from any professor there. The professors annoyed me a lot of the time in that they did reward people who were very up their own butts and speaking super overcomplicated legalese, but I never saw a professor bully anyone at Cornell. That is upsetting. 

Josey: Really awful.

Rhia: What is that movie that they tell you to watch before law school? 

Kate: The Paper Chase?

Rhia: Yes.

Kate: I never watched it.

Rhia: I don’t think I did either, but people were telling me about it.

Kate: Yeah, they’re super competitive and, like, cutthroat?

Rhia: Yes. 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: That was U Chicago vibes. I also remember some kid like always would print out his transcript, like his grades and just leave it in the library so people saw.

Kate: Oh my god.

Rhia: Just like ridiculous.

Josey: I’m hyper-competitive, like insanely competitive…

Kate: I’m very competitive too, but…

Josey: But there are some lengths that people go to in law school like leaving your grades out where I’m like, that’s just childish. Like that's not even competitive, that's just ridiculous.

Kate: There's a difference between competitive and gross.

Rhia: It's so embarrassing. I wish I could go back as my, like, more grown, embodied self and just like laugh in more people's faces.

(Kate laughs)

Josey: Right?

Rhia: Because I think they needed it.

Kate: (Laughing) I did a little bit. I was like 28 when I started law school, and I was married, and I was like,”This is not my life.” I actually got a superlative from one of my friends before graduation that was like, “The most likely to be above it all.” I don't know if that's an insult or a compliment, but like…

(Kate laughs)

Rhia: Huge compliment.

Josey: I think that’s a compliment. Yeah.

Rhia: Huge compliment.  

Kate: I was like, “I'm going to be at home with my cats. Y'all have fun slicing the pages out of textbooks to fuck each other over.” No, I, I honestly, I don't think Cornell was like that. I really don't.

Rhia: Looking back I’m like, what was happening? Like who were these people? 

Kate: I'm curious, Rhia… Josey and I had sort of different experiences when we each decided to leave the law. 

When I left, you would have thought I made a daring escape from a war-torn country. (Rhia laughs) The messages that I got from other law school colleagues, other attorneys who were still in the law, they were like, “I can't believe that you got out.” “It inspires me to think that maybe I can leave someday.” I mean, literally, these were the things being sent to me.

That was part of what made me realize what a problem this is. Because I was like, well, I never wanted to be a lawyer in the first place, so it's probably just me.  But when I started getting those messages, I was like, oh no, it's everybody. And then Josey, you had sort of the opposite experience, right?.

Josey: Yeah, no, I had the polar opposite experience. People were very critical of me leaving the law and honestly are still critical. It's usually from attorneys. “You're making a mistake.” “You're getting into a less respectable career, so you're- it's going to be harder for you to like, gain that respect again or get back in.” You're giving up on a trajectory just cause you didn't hack it the first time.” “You're not going to be fulfilled if you don't do this.” 

Differently from Kate, I was super, super passionate about the law. I did really want to be in it. And so I think there was an element where that may have influenced some of those reactions as well, different from attorney. Cause it's, you know, you've reached the status of attorney and then you decide you don't like it it's one thing I think, but if you haven't even been able to reach it there, you're failing on multiple levels. Yeah, my experience was polar opposite, but I don't know if that's just the paralegal part of it, what it was, you know.

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah, so I'm curious what your experience was. What was the feedback you got?

Rhia: I got both. I think when I left, I got a lot of shock. People were just like, “Wait, what?” Because I was good. I am a great lawyer. 

Kate: (Laughing) That's probably the other reason people were like, “Yeah, go ahead,” for me.

(Josey laughs)

Josey: No! That’s not it!

Rhia: No, Kate. We don't talk about that ourselves that way. (Kate laughs) I had a legit career. And when I was interviewing at other places, I was interviewing for GC positions and like cushy in-house roles. And I also took some interviews and was talking myself into some public interest roles. Which, you know, I was always told, “If you don't do public interest immediately, you'll never make it in.” Don't listen. I was getting- very close to getting offers before I pulled myself out of everything. You can do it. 

Kate: That’s such bullshit. I've never heard it that go that way either. 

Josey: No.

Kate: I've always heard the narrative of like, “Well just go to firms for a few years and then you can do public interest.”

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Public interest, if you care and you can demonstrate your passion and your caring for the cause, that's all they really care about. They'll take a competent attorney from wherever they come from. At least that's my experience.

Rhia: Yeah, I think that's true.But anyways, I got a lot of shock. And definitely a lot of… quiet judgment. (Rhia laughs) Because I was like getting my coaching certification. People are like, “...A coach?”

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: So I got that, I got some like confusion from mentors. And then I also got the messages, Kate, from people who were like, “Wait, how are you doing this? Can we get on a zoom?”

Kate: They're baffled! People are like, “How did you even realize you could leave?” Like people feel so trapped. (Rhia laughs) They really do.

Rhia: They do. Most of my friends who are lawyers still are unhappy in their careers. I only know like a very small number of people who are like thriving currently. There's people who are excited for you and are like, how do I do that? But I also think there are people who are like threatened by the fact that you left because they feel like they can't, and they're like, “This is destabilizing to my point of view of what I need to do in my career. And so I'm going to judge you and project that onto you.”

Kate: Mmm.

Rhia: When I was interviewing and like reflecting on what I wanted next, I was thinking about my day-to-day life as a lawyer, and was like, you know, I'm kind of bored of legal research. I love to research, I love to write, but I like more to think about big picture ideas and especially like societal structure, and the way that society impacts people, and equity, and all of those things. So I was like, how can I build a career where I'm doing that? 

And I'm a big personal development fan. I really love like the idea of taking control of your life, kind of undoing yourself from social conditioning, especially as women…

Kate: Mm.

Josey: Yes.

Rhia: … when it comes to, like, giving, perfectionism, all these things that kind of plague us. (Kate sighs) So I had such like a grounded understanding of what I wanted to do next. So all of the noise, I shut it out. 

But I did have- One of my friends texted me the night before I was launching Rebuild with Rhia. I told her what I was doing, and she was like, “But you're such a good lawyer. I feel like this is a big mistake.” 

Josey: Yes!

Rhia: And I was like, “I'm launching my business tomorrow.” (Kate laughs) Tomorrow, you know? 

Josey: Like, don’t…

Rhia: Shut up! You know, keep that to yourself. 

Josey: I know!

Kate: Why would you say that to me the day before I go out on this endeavor?

Rhia: Why would you say that to me?

Josey: I had so many people say that, “You're such a great paralegal, you're on a great track.” And I was like, but it ends here. I don't have much further I can go with the paralegal career if I don't go to law school, and I can't get into law school. So iI am at a crossroads and you're telling me this when I've already resigned and everything. So…

Rhia: Right.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: It's like guilting you into feeling like you're making a mistake of getting out. And it's like, I know I'm good at what I do now. That's not the problem. (Kate laughs) I'm not intentionally, but kind of intentionally, not doing as well as I was because I'm burnt out.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: (Laughing) And I can't handle not doing well at my job.

Kate: Yeah, well, and being good at something does not obligate you to continue to do that thing.

Josey: Yes.

Rhia: Yes! Exactly, Kate. And I think people need to hear that, like louder for the people in the back. (Clapping for emphasis) You're allowed to leave a career that you are good at if you are not happy! 

Josey: Yes.

Kate: Yes.

Rhia: Or if you think you can be happier at something else!

Kate: Yes!

Rhia: I just knew, I don't want to do this. And that's the end of the sentence. 

Kate: Done!

Rhia: I don't wanna do this, so I'm leaving. 

Kate: That's all the information you need to have. 

It's funny, it's not the same thing, but it makes me think of when I tell people that I don't want kids. One of the reactions is, “But you'd be such a good mom!” And I'm like… “I know.” (All laugh) I'm like, that's not the issue. I think I'd be a kick-ass mom, but, uhhhh… I don't want to. So again, end of discussion. Done.

(Kate laughs)

Josey: And in this day and age, we as women get to make those choices of what we do want and don't want to do.

Kate: Yeah, ain’t it great?

Josey: We don't need all those pressures on us making us do the things that maybe we just don't want to fuckin’ do.

Rhia: Yeah, exactly. Learning to validate your own point of view with respect to how you wanna live your life, and not letting people guilt you or sway you or manipulate you into doing something that doesn't feel authentic to you. That's it.

Josey: Rhia, can I ask: You were clearly good at what you were doing in Biglaw, and there were elements of the law and practicing and studying all of that, that you did love. 

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: When you were trying to make the decision to leave, was there a part of you that kind of struggled or felt a sense of loss because you weren't doing something that you had loved or did love still and you kind of decided to let that go for a bit?

(Short pause)

Rhia: No. 

Josey: Oh, that's amazing. 

Rhia: There are a few reasons for that I think. 

One, 2020, I felt pushed too far. I was getting talked over all the time, I felt disrespected, and I was becoming more confident and sure of myself. So I was like, wait a minute. My standards for treatment are actually raising, and I feel like the way I'm being treated is kind of decreasing a little. And this is not working for me. 

So I felt so frustrated with legal culture by the time that I left that I just was ready to move on. It's like when you're in a toxic relationship for a long time and you kind of break up with them in your head like six months before you actually leave.

Kate: Oh god, yep. 

Rhia: And so it makes it easier. 

Josey: Yeah.

Rhia: That's what it was for me. I was done, done, done, done. I mean, I was interviewing at these other legal jobs and I was like, “I can't imagine taking direction from another person with this kind of culture ingrained in them. I'm not gonna do it. And so what can I do on my own?”

I don't think I would have become an entrepreneur had I not been pushed so far and been so frustrated. And I will say, I worked with incredible people. But that last year, the team I was on, the cases I was on, I was just really pushed past my limit. And so I didn't feel any loss. 

And I also was excited, because it was like, I can take the skills I have, I can take the counseling skills that I really like. Part of practicing that I really loved, was like preparing people for interviews and depositions and like really working through those questions. And coaching is that, but with people I actually like. (Kate and Josey laugh) So it was like, I'm going to get to use the skills that I loved and do the things that I love, but in a way that is fully dictated by me. And that just felt really empowering and exciting, honestly. 

Kate: Yeah!

Rhia: I miss the money.

(Rhia laughs)

Kate: Oh. No one can blame you.

Josey: I think that's the other thing with Biglaw is when you do leave Biglaw, as opposed to maybe nonprofit, I took a huge decrease when I left law. 

Kate: Yeah, there was nowhere for me to go but up.

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah, no, I took a really big drop in salary. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: I am used to a certain standard of living right now.

Kate: It’s a very real consideration. 

Rhia: Yeah. 

Kate: Especially if you have debt. 

Rhia: Right, true. I was lucky because I didn't have law school debt, so that gave me a little more freedom there. 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: But I didn't really anticipate how long it takes for you to make money as an entrepreneur. Obviously, there's research out there, but I was just feeling really confident in myself. (Rhia and Kate laugh) I was like, you know, it'll be fine. We'll figure it out.

Kate: (Laughing) Rhia, I feel like we're the same person!

Josey: (Laughing) I know, you guys are like so empowered to just be like, “It's fine, I'll make the money.” And I'm over here like, no, it's not gonna work.

Rhia: I mean, Josey, I probably could have used a little like advice from you of like, okay, can we make a budget though?

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: Yeah.

Rhia: When you’re working that many hours in that intense of an environment, I felt like I always had to buy myself treats to get myself–

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Rhia: -- through the week or the day, so I didn't even save that much. 

Josey: You know, you’re working late. The firm is paying. So I'm like, bring me a steak. 

(Kate laughs)

Rhia: Yeah, bring me a steak and I'll take my black car home.

Kate: Oh my God, I can't even fucking imagine. When I got hired in tech they sent me like a water bottle and a t-shirt and I was overwhelmed.

Rhia: Kate, that's so precious. 

Josey: (Laughing) It is.

Kate: That’s coming from nonprofit, baby!

Rhia: When I accepted my offer at my first law firm, they sent me a bonsai tree.

Kate: Aw.

Josey: I remember getting flowers like all over my desk. The first day that I showed up like several of the people take me out to this incredibly fancy lunch at a restaurant, it's right by the White House. They do this whole thing to like wine and dine you ahead of time and I was like, oh my god.

Rhia: Oh my gosh. When I was a summer associate- 

Josey: Oh, they roll out the red carpet for you.

Rhia: Oh, yes.

Josey: I've seen those expenses.

Rhia: It was shocking to me. Like I had never made that much money. I had never been treated like that. I felt like I was in a fake world. (Josey laughs.) I told them I was really interested in civil rights, so they put me with an attorney who did IP, but also worked directly with the ACLU. 

Kate: That’s rad. 

Josey: This is how they get you!

Rhia: Oh, 100%. They put me exactly with the people that I would like. And then it was raw bars every Friday, I sailed on the Hudson River…

Josey: Rooftop cocktail parties…

Rhia: Five-course lunches, rooftop cocktail parties. It was unreal.

(Kate laughs)

Josey: Yeah. The entire first week, I was just being taken out to nice lunches all day. And the first team they put me with was all people that were wonderful to work with. And I was like, (sighs) my life is made.

Kate: It’s almost like love-bombing. 

Josey: Yes!

Kate: They love-bomb you. 

Josey: Yes.

Rhia: A hundred percent.

Kate: Well and what's so frustrating is like if they delivered on the cultural aspect, like that's so great.  I'm not saying that everyone should be, you know, given raw bars every Friday and all of that, but like, the idea of putting you with people that you gel well with, the idea of putting you with people who do the kind of work that you want to do. I mean, all of those are really great practices, but then they're not backed up by a culture that supports you.

Rhia: No.

Josey: Yeah. I will say at my firm, it like, it was representative of how they operated. That firm wasn't the reason I left law. 

Kate: Obviously you went through a process like both Josey and I did of where do I go from here? Is it leaving the law? Is it staying in a different capacity? Whatever. How did you sort of make all of those calculations and come to the conclusion that starting your own business and starting this specific business was what you wanted to do moving forward?

Rhia: I think honestly, it just came down to a gut instinct.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: I just felt like I can do this in a different way on my own in a way that also gives me the flexibility to heal. I mean, the first year of my business, I was working like 20 hour weeks because I was just sleeping. I was so exhausted. I was recovering and also rebuilding the way that I approach my life. I was doing a lot of personal work on my perfectionism, on things that I knew contributed to my stress levels.

I was nervous about how much the stress had impacted my body. So I both wanted to get away from corporate culture, I wanted to do things that I was truly passionate about, and I felt like the only way I was going to really honor myself in terms of the tasks, dynamics, the things I got to talk about was to do my own thing. And then I really needed the flexibility to heal from burnout. 

Kate: That’s fantastic. How do you find your transferable skills?

Rhia: Ugh, I love this. One thing you can do is just write down like all the tasks that you do in a day. Also, one thing that you can do that's pretty cool right now is you could write down all your tasks, and you can put it into ChatGPT and ask it to list out your skills like they would be on a resumé for you. 

Kate: That’s such a good idea.

Rhia: And so if you're struggling and you can't afford coaching, that could be something that you do first too.

But otherwise, you know, literally just creating a list of all the things that you do and staring at it. Really fleshing out from your tasks like what the skills required are to do each task. And it's going to take you a little bit of work. But then you have to get a little creative to show that you are qualified to be in your new position even if you're not.

Like that is something I want all professionals to hear too. Like you have a lot more flexibility to jump into new areas than you think you do. You just have to be persuasive.

Josey: When you're looking for something else, I think you can feel like maybe your skills aren't transferable, or you have a lot of self doubt because you didn't hack it in one thing. 

Rhia: Right.

Josey: How would you advise people to move past that self-doubt in order to start looking and actually advocating for themselves in a new role?

Rhia: Well that's really tough because one of- I mean, burnout symptoms include lack of motivation, just cynicism about your position and your future. So it's really tough working with people who are already in burnout to get them to see that there are options. Step one, understand that like burnout is driving some of those thoughts for you. And you're not gonna be in that place forever. Sometimes just creating distance, I think, from self-doubt is really important. 

How to address self-doubt is a more complicated question. But you can start, honestly, and the way I started was just starting to take care of yourself in small ways. I personally believe that confidence is built not through work, not through achievement, not through achieving like certain skills or things you can put on your resume, but through creating a self-relationship, which happens outside of work. 

Are you listening to your needs? Are you prioritizing them? Are you engaging in positive self-talk? What are your tools for talking yourself up? Are you noticing your wins? There are a lot of tools that you can build into your life that help you build that confidence that bleeds into every area. 

It is a subject dear to my heart again, especially for women because we see in the research that like, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, self-doubt literally does add stress to your day-to-day life, and if you're already navigating like a bunch of stressors it is one of the places you can look to first to start to reduce your stress load and hopefully prevent burnout.

Josey: Yeah, and what I would say for women too is that we already feel extra pressure to prove ourselves. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: Yes.

Josey: We already feel the need to outperform or to work harder because we need to prove ourselves against our male counterparts. And so when you add that pressure that we already just exist with on a day-to-day level to the symptoms of burnout and kind of that self-doubt you can feel, it can be really hard to transition into a new role and not carry those things over. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Rhia: Yes.

Josey: Because I didn't address my self-relationship and like my life outside of work, I took those habits of burnout with me and I burnt myself out again because I couldn't stop working 14 hour days and skipping lunch and not getting enough sleep. I was still in the mindset of, this is how I prove myself. This is where my perfectionism and work ethic come from and that's what people value, so I must keep doing it. 

Once you realize that, you're like, no, I'm so much more productive when I value myself for something other than my work–

Rhia: Yes!

Josey: -- and can give to that part of my life.

Rhia: Yes, Josey. Okay, I have several things that I must say in response because that was so smart. (Josey laughs) The first thing is, so many people think that if they quit their job and start a new job, that's how you deal with burnout. And it is untrue. You have to be doing the reflection of either how am I contributing, and what exactly is stressing me out at work? And how do I make sure I'm not in that dynamic again, or doing those types of tasks? You have to learn yourself and then make shifts. So that is the first point. 

The second point is, the data actually bears out that idea that women are really dealing with more stress, because we are, one, trying to prove ourselves, two, trying to navigate constant bias, whether conscious or unconscious. I mean, there are so many research studies out there that are really frustrating. In negotiations, if women are acting the same way as men, they are seeing worse outcomes. They're being seen as worse, whereas men are being seen as leaders and assets for being confident in negotiations. 

Kate: Yeeeeep. Men are leaders, women are bitches.

Josey: Yep.

Rhia: Exactly. And if you're not assertive, if you're not advocating for yourself, you're more likely to get left behind because women get less mentorship experiences, less opportunity for promotions. And so there are so many things that you're navigating in work just to try to show up in the way that your male counterparts are. 

And we see that in the data. I mean, women tend to be burning out at about 10% higher rates than men in the workforce. Black women and Hispanic women are burning out at even higher rates. 

Kate: Yep.

Rhia: Queer people, again, like navigating those biases at work, are burning out at higher rates. Disabled people are burning out at higher rates. Like burnout really is a systemic issue because stressors not only come from your work tasks, but from the way that people are treating you and all the biases that you have to navigate in work and outside of work. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Yes. I think too, that when we are getting out of a career field and we have that feeling of we didn't make it, you know, we couldn't hack it or something, and you take that mentality into your next job… You're wondering if that employer is looking at the, you know, shorter stint at something and saying, “Oh, well, you know, a woman couldn’t hack it” or something. Is she going to have what it takes to do it? Whereas a male counterpart wouldn't experience that to the same level because they can walk into that interview confident, knowing they can talk their way out of that. 

As where a woman doesn't feel that same empowerment to say, “Yeah, it wasn't a fit for me,” because then it's going to be, well, what wasn't a fit? Were you too timid? Were you, you know, too sensitive? Were you too aggressive? Those are the questions that come up about women when that happens, they don't come up about men.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: Yeah. And it hurts me to think about women in Biglaw, because I hear stories of male Biglaw associates who are being told to like, leave their lights on at their desks overnight so people think they're still there. How do you one-up that as a woman? 

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: How do you give that much extra when everyone is already expected to be on 24/7? You suddenly, I don't know, get a time turner like Hermione Granger and add another like 12 hours to your day? (Rhia laughs) Like what do you do?

(Kate laughs)

Josey: God, I wish.

Rhia: And we're expected to wear makeup and like outfits that are more unique and we have like more tasks just per day than men. 

Kate: UGH! Yeah.

Rhia: There was a study actually in Massachusetts that found that 86% of female attorneys in Massachusetts were burned out. It was released in February of this year. 86%. The male counterparts were at 70%, which is still high, about 20 percentage points higher than the normal workforce. 70% is shocking, but 86% is horrifying. Something needs to be done about it.

Josey: So for some people, especially those getting into big law, oftentimes it's a financial choice, oftentimes it's because of loans or because your family situation, whatever it is, prohibits you from not taking that job, basically. You need the income. And so then you also work harder because you want those extra hours.

And so when they are looking to get out, it can feel like it's not an option. I don't know if you've had clients like that, but if you have, or you just have any tips or anything you would say to that,I think it could be helpful for some.

Rhia: Tips about like navigating stress in Biglaw or about leaving?

Josey: Leaving and navigating it within, actually if you, you know- finances or something that's keeping...

Rhia: Totally. So when you are in a career that is incredibly high-stress and you're not giving up that career,what you have to do is kind of do an audit of your biggest stressors. Get really specific. What are the things that stress you out the most at work? What are the things that stress you out the most about around your self-relationship? And also your stressors outside of work. That can be things like caregiving, it can be toxic relationships, it can be loneliness, not seeing people enough. There are a lot of things that add to your stress bucket. 

And I think one of the things a lot of people are missing about burnout is like, yes, a lot of it stems from work, right? But there is stress coming from other areas of our life. And we can kind of take an audit of that and make shifts to reduce your overall stress load. And that's what you have to do. ‘Cause you have to just try to get your stress bucket as empty as possible, knowing that it's gonna be pretty full from work regardless, and there's nothing you can do about that in your situation. 

So it's like making those very small shifts, bringing in a little more self-care, working on your confidence so you're not beating yourself up, you're not having that mindset that's adding so much stress. And then taking stress management seriously. That is my advice for being in a stressful career. 

There are a lot of ways that we can try to reduce the mental load on ourselves. And it's frustrating, ‘cause we shouldn't have to do so much work to feel okay, but they will really benefit you like forever. So it's worth it.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah, that’s absolutely true is, you feel like you're taking on yet another thing in order to do this. But you're absolutely right, once you do and you get into that habit, it makes all the di- well, not all the difference sometimes, but it makes a difference in how you're feeling.

Rhia: You just mentioned the word “habit,” Josey, and that's something I always tell people too. These behaviors will get easier. Over time, the more you do it, you're like, you don't have to expend as much energy on your care. 

And start small, like, “What is something that's realistic for me that I can do consistently?” is way better than, “Oh my gosh I have to do a two-hour morning routine because I saw an influencer do it.” Like that's not effective.

Kate: (Laughing) Mmhmm.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Rhia: “I'm gonna read for five minutes in the morning because that's realistic to me and I like it,” that's effective. You're gonna keep doing it and you can build and it will snowball from there

Josey: Absolutely. I think starting small is… So often we hear it, but we don't do it. Especially if you're people like us that are overachievers and you want to like get all of it in, you know, and fix it all right away. 

(Kate laughs.)

Kate: Like, I’m gonna skip to Step 10.

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah, it's like when you try to work out five days a week and you haven't forever…

Rhia: It’s not gonna happen.

Josey: Find 10 minutes, three days a week to do some movement.

Rhia: I agree, Josey. Working with my clients, they're like, “This is hard for me.”

Josey: (Laughing) I know!

Rhia:  “Like not setting the goal at 10.” And I'm like, yeah, but you never do it. You like tell yourself you're going to work out. Maybe you do for like a month. And then you're like, I can't do this. I can't keep this up. So I'm going to stop entirely, shame myself--

Kate: (Laughing) Yep!

Rhia: -- tell myself I failed…

Josey: (Laughing) Make it worse. 

Rhia: Make it so I never want to try again because I beat myself up for approximately three months. (Josey laughs) And then in four months, I'll be like, “I shouldn't really be moving.”

Josey: Mmhmm.

(Kate laughs)

Rhia: Yeah, that's the cycle.

Josey: Absolutely.

Kate: Yeah. And I love that you brought up mental load because as a woman, if you're in a heterosexual relationship anyway, typically you are the one carrying the mental load.

Rhia: Yes.

Kate: You ask your partner to do something and the response is, “Oh, okay, remind me.” And you're like, no, this is your reminder. 

Rhia: Yeah. Oh god.

Josey: Mmhmm. I cannot.

Rhia: I’m triggered.

Josey: (Laughing) Same. 

Rhia: I’m like, sweating.

Josey: I’m not your mother!

Kate: Right. You're like, this is me trying to take this one thing that I need to remind you of and put it on you, and you telling me to remind you is not the business. And I have five other things on my list I was going to remind you about gradually throughout the week so as not to overwhelm you.

(Kate laughs)

Josey: Oh my god, I can't.

Rhia: No, this is like my biggest fear and why I'm still single because I will not engage in this dynamic. 

Josey: No.

Rhia: I've done it before and I will not, I simply will not.

I've dealt with this with a lot of my female clients too, is like when we go through their stressor list, one of them is “my husband.” (Kate and Josey laugh) My husband isn't helping me as much as I think he should be. And I'm doing most of the caretaking, I'm running the house, and I have my own career. So what's going on? 

Kate: I’m remembering when all the appointments are.

Rhia: Yeah, oh, planning birthday parties…

Josey: Ordering the present for it.

Rhia: Baking the cake, here's what the theme should be, it is constant. 

Deloitte comes out with this like women in the workplace study yearly, and it found that in, like you were saying Kate, in dual-career couples, even when the woman was the breadwinner making more money, she was still likely to do about five more hours of household work per week. And usually it can be higher than that too. And it was frustrating too because there's like this chart of like men self-reporting on what the split was, (Kate laughs) and so many men thought it was equal–

Kate: Of course.

Rhia: and the women were like, “No.” And it's frustrating for men because they have been conditioned to not think about these things, to think it's okay.

Kate: Absolutely.

Josey: Yes.

Rhia: And it's like they don't know, they don't have the skill. But it's like, build the skill. 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah, and then you're like, “Hi, I'm not your mom,” and they're like, “Wait, what? I thought every woman was my mom. I'm confused.”

(Kate and Rhia laugh)

Josey: Oh my god, I cannot. 

Rhia: Being single’s amazing.

Kate: I just want to say my husband is fantastic, but-

Josey: Nate is very nice. I do like Nate.

Kate: He is, and we- Also, we don't have kids. 

Rhia: Mmmm.

Kate: I'm also curious to hear if you have any other- Since you work with all different professions, if there are any other professions you kind of see more frequently.

Rhia: So teachers DM me a lot but they can't afford to work with me. 

Kate: Mm.

Rhia: I do offer like a free master class that actually is really, it's not marketing fluff, It's like, I talk about a lot of the advice I'm giving now. 

Kate: That’s awesome.

Rhia: The medical profession should be coming, but I don't think they have the time, like they’re just not showing up. (Kate laughs) I do see a lot of lawyers, as mentioned before, but also people in like all types of industries, just like general high-achievers. If you're like that at work, you're typically doing that outside of work, like you're helping friends, you're over-the-top hosting, like you're doing all this stuff. 

Kate: Ouch.

Josey: This is feeling very personal right now.

Rhia: It's not just you! That's the thing. 

Kate: And so much of it is work you're putting on yourself.

Rhia: Yes.

Kate: Your friends didn't ask you to fix their lives. I- Speaking for myself at this point… (Rhia laughs) The second they say something's wrong, you don't need to be at their house the next second with a bottle of wine, which is how I operate. And I have stopped a little bit to a degree because I started encountering people who were taking advantage of the fact that was how I operated. 

Josey: I was just gonna say that. 

Kate: You don't even need to say jump, I'm jumping as high as I can before you even ask me to.

Josey: Yeah.

Rhia: Right.

Josey: I do think if you're someone that does do that, just you do it anyway, you jump to it, you're always there and whatnot, people do unintentionally, like subconsciously expect it, I think.

Kate: Yes. Yeah.

Josey: Because they're used to you responding that way. And when you don't, it can feel personal, or it can feel more of a letdown than from any other person.

Rhia: Yeah. And I think that, Josey, that's true in both like your career and your personal life. 

Josey: Yes.

Rhia: If you go into a job being like, “I'm going to prove myself, work really, really hard, give all of this effort because I want to be seen as part of the team,” and then eventually that is unrealistic to continue forever. So you pull back a little, you set some boundaries, and then they're like, “Wait a minute, I saw what 110% looked like from you, and I want that consistently.” 

Kate: Yep.

Rhia: Versus if you go in at 80%, you're still crushing it, then like you are just able to show up in a more consistent way, is something to think about and starting a new job. 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: That’s such a good point.

Josey: It's so important. That's what I did at my last job, is I took in that attitude in order to prove myself. And then I realized I was doing the same thing that had burnt me out in traditional law. And I was like, all right, I need to pull back. As soon as I did though, it's like…

Kate: “Where are you?”

Josey: Yeah, “Where are you?” And also, you've never not gotten something done that day, even if you have to stay up through the night, because you'd rather get it done as soon as someone asks than push it. I now ask, “When's the latest I can get this to you?” and then I try to give a deadline before that but I say, you know, I will update you.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: That is smart. One of my actual biggest stressors that felt very disrespectful for me was staying up all night to finish something and then they didn't look at it for like five days after that.

Kate: UGH.

Rhia: Like I would feel enraged, happened all the time. 

Josey: Especially if they say it's important or a rush, and then they take forever to get back, and I feel this level of disrespect that I don't feel in any other area of my life. (Laughing) You can do a lot of things to me… (Kate laughs) …but that one is the one that will send me over the top.

Rhia: Yes, actually, okay, this is really important too. If you are in any job, any profession, figuring out what feels most disrespectful for you and like not gaslighting yourself out of feeling that way is very important if you're going to live and operate in an anti-burnout culture way. 

Kate: Oooh!

Rhia: Research shows that disrespect has the biggest stress toll on us as employees. 

Kate: Woooow.

Rhia: And what disrespect is, is going to feel, is going to depend on your employees. So like for me, it's being interrupted, and it's being given- Like working really hard for some deadline that is not true, and I don't feel like my time was being respected. So I know in any work environment, I need to be in a culture where those things are not happening because I cannot tolerate that level of stress that comes from disrespect. 

You have to figure out as a professional, what feels disrespectful for me at work and how am I going to either set boundaries around it, learn to advocate myself for myself to get out of those dynamics, or leave a profession where that is a consistent dynamic that I can escape? Like that is so important.

Kate: Wow.

Josey: Yes.

Rhia: And I think it's important, like if you're a manager too, to understand this dynamic as well. Getting to know your employees a little, like, “Hey, what feels like respect to you at work? What feels disrespectful?” And then you are helping your employee feel more loyal, feel more engaged, feel more productive. And that is part of what companies need to start taking very seriously, is what does anti burnout management look like, and how do we start following through with that? 

Burned out employees are deeply affecting like the bottom line if we wanna take it to what companies care about. 

Josey: Yeah. Yes.

Kate: Yeah. Rhia: Decreased engagement, productivity, high rates of attrition. And also it can- Burnout can take people out of the workforce for years. It can take up to five years to get back up to full capacity. 

Kate: Wow.

Rhia: Usually, if you're in severe burnout, I've seen it be around two. If you have someone who's very good at their craft out of the workforce for years, that is bad for everyone. I post on social media talking about burnout a lot. I'll talk about management styles and I'll have people say, “I'm now in a place where my manager just simply like asks me a few questions about what I need.” It's not a lot of work, and it really does go a long way. And then your team is more engaged. They feel like they're part of the mission. They're working harder. 

The old school, you gotta put in your dues. People are exhausted by it, and it's just not working anymore. And so it's like, we have to shift, and it doesn't have to be these massive things. It can just be, I’m going to send out a Google survey. What was your best experience with a manager and why? What are the tasks that make you most excited? What are the tasks that stress you out unnecessarily? Maybe I can shift things around on my team so that people are in their zone of genius and I’m getting the best out of them. That’s all. It doesn’t have to be a lot.

Josey: Yeah, no, it’s so true.

Rhia: If you make me feel like I'm part of a team, if you make me feel like my voice is respected, I have some autonomy, I will work my ass off because I like to.

Kate: Yeeeeeuuuup.

Rhia: I like to work hard, I like to achieve. I am the type of person who is passionate about work. I've since learned how to create boundaries around that so it's not, you know, scary.

(Kate and Josey laugh)

Kate: Right.

Josey: It really does change the work that you get from people because I'm exactly the same way, and I think many people in law are. You give me just an inch of validation or respect or whatever, and I will go 10 miles for you. It takes so little time, you guys.

Kate: It does.

Rhia: It does.

Josey: Like it takes so little time for people like that because they're not gonna keep bothering you. They're gonna be like, great, you appreciate me. I'm gonna just gonna go work now.

Kate: Yep, let me go run with whatever it is. You know, people who into the law are enthusiastic and they are hard workers and they are willing to go that extra mile. And sometimes when you burn out, the perception is that you weren't, that you weren't willing to work hard. Or when you're burning out, that's one of the things that goes away. Like you said, you stop being motivated or not being as productive. 

And when you're someone who's used to being very productive and wanting to work very, very hard, that can feel like such a failing and such a blow to your self-worth that I think there's this misperception that leaving the work and doing something else that maybe is perceived as lower lift or as less hard, is quitting or is giving up because it feels easier. 

And I think that that's a mentality that's really toxic and really difficult to overcome.

Rhia: Oh, yeah.

Kate: I was like, “I'm selling out. I want to go do something that's easier for me, blah, blah. I just don't want to do this because it's hard. It didn't come naturally.”That's not it. You're allowed to take care of yourself and you're allowed to do something that feels easier. It doesn't mean that you're not putting in effort. It just doesn't feel like the same level of effort because you're not doing something you're miserable in.

(Kate laughs)

Rhia: Right. I know, there's like this idea that like you are more morally superior if you're struggling. Um which is-

Kate: It’s so Puritan. It’s like very Pilgrim mentality.

(Rhia laughs)

Rhia: Yeah, you gotta be toiling in the fields. Yes, you're very correct. And a lot of the people I work with in burnout, we have to do a lot of mindset work because… First of all, be gentle on yourself. Burnout means your capacity is down. That is not a choice. It is a physical truth. It is now listened by WHO as an actual syndrome. It is truth.

Kate: Really?

Rhia: Your capacity is decreased and you have to respect that. Yes. It’s physical exhaustion as a result from prolonged stress. And I think kind of like you were implying, there is a huge identity shift that can come from feeling your capacity go down and needing to do something else or take a break. A lot of people wait until it's so bad that they need to go on medical leave and take real sabbaticals, which is like… I hope you listen to this podcast, and if you're in a high-stress career, you start taking this seriously before you get to that point. But most of us learn lessons the hard way, including myself. 

I think what's, again, important is like you are not finding your worth in your productivity. And that is really challenging. Like investing in yourself as a person outside of work is crucial, especially if you're in your 20s and you're hustling. Although I will say Gen Z is much better at this. 

Kate: Yes, I love Gen Z with my whole heart. I feel like they're taking the kind of hard lessons that we're talking through right now in this podcast… And Gen Z was like, “I knew that when I was five.” 

Josey: I know!

Rhia: They're learning from us in a really beautiful way, and I think that we should be looking to them, just like they're looking to us for style inspo from our middle school years. We should be looking to them for like the way that they advocate for themselves, the way that they job hop, the way that they do so unapologetically, the way they set boundaries. They just see themselves as humans outside of work, outside of achievement and productivity. 

Starting to see yourself over time, by like investing in things that aren't productivity-related, as more than a worker is so important. 

When I started my business, like I said earlier, I was basically working part time because I needed so much downtime, and I also needed just time to- I was like saying yes to myself about every impulse I had because I felt like I deprived myself of humanity for so long. So there was this huge swing the other way. But I did struggle with feeling like I should have like made this really successful right out the gate. Ah!

And I think there are points, too, I even have those twinges of… I'm two years in and I just feel like I fully healed from burnout in January of this year. And so I've just been hitting the ground in a more aggressive way this year than I was in the past. And there's some times where I'm like, man, I feel like I should have hustled right out the gate and I'd have this like empire by now. 

Kate: Uh huh.

Rhia: You have to create that other voice inside of your head that reminds you, no, you're a human, and you did what was respectful to your physical body that you don't get to override the needs of just because you would like to. And not only is that okay, that is the way that we should all be living. Set the example and just like know that you're doing right by yourself. 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: Mindset shifts and behavior changes are hard. Like get support if you can and go slow and be graceful with yourself. 

Kate: Oh my god, that was all speaking to me, as you can probably tell by my reaction, and Josey's pointing at me because… I burned out in a different way this last time. First time I burned out, it was related to the work. And in that case, it was… I just changed jobs, and I was like, magically, “Yay, I'm done, I'm good.” And then this last time, it was more of like the management thing, like you said. It was just, it was different. It looked different. 

And when I quit… was not really in the plan. It was moderately spontaneous. (Laughing) I did not quit at the time that I was planning to leave that job. 

Rhia: Mmhmm.

Kate: And I decided to focus on this podcast. I couldn't even take a day without putting the pressure on myself then to be productive about this, because I had so much guilt too. I was like, well, I'm not contributing money to the- And my husband was great about it. He was always really great about reframing it to me when I would talk about like, “Oh, I know I'm just doing this podcast.” And he was like, “No, that's your job right now. That is your job. You're not not working. You are doing this.”

Rhia: Right.

Kate: He has to keep telling me that because I’ll have anxiety about it that I'm not doing enough. And I'm trying to do the same thing that you did, Rhia, right? Where I'm like, on Tuesday, I'm like, I'm not doing anything. I'm hanging out with my best friend, done. But that stresses me out because then I'm like, “But you could be editing.”It's hard. It's hard to shift that mentality.

Rhia: Oh, it's challenging. 

Kate: I've been struggling with that a lot. So I love hearing your perspective on it because it's very helpful for me to like remind myself like, “It's OK. 

Rhia: Every time you hear the word “should,” it should be a red flag. Shoulding yourself is a terrible thing that we do to ourselves.

Kate: That's actually- my therapist used to say, “Don't should on yourself.” Like that was something that we came up with together is like, “Stop shoulding on yourself.”

Josey: That’s funny.

Rhia: It’s real, ‘cause it’s exhausting. One of my things that my therapist used to say is like, “Well, you live like this for 28 years, you think you're gonna change it in a week?” You need to give yourself the space to learn, to work on it, but having that voice and just trying to be as consistent as possible is reminding yourself… And then doing what you're doing of like creating scheduled days out so you're not sitting there and just going to what's easy, which is probably working, is really important. 

And over time, it will get easier. I'm now three years into deconstructing myself from like perfectionism and all this overworking mentality. And I finally feel like I'm really in a solid grounded place of like, okay, I know how to approach all these things in my life in a way that's respectful to me, but also where I'm getting things done. And if you have someone in your life that can parrot you the self-talk that you need to hear, like use them.

Josey: I think this is a really good spot to, to do kind of final thoughts, any words of wisdom you would want to share with, you know, anyone listening?

Rhia: I think that my biggest advice for professionals is to take your stress seriously before you burn out. It is so much harder to heal from burnout than it is to make changes to prevent it. I was the type of person who woke up and checked my work phone first thing in the morning, ran around like crazy. I would go to doctors, they would tell me that you're under too high of stress, I was constantly pulling muscles. Seeing massage therapists and having them be like, “You're really young to have this tight of muscles, what's going on in your life?” People were reflecting back to me that this level of stress is not normal, and I ignored it. 

Kate: I had a massage therapist once be like, “Oh, I thought you were left-handed until I got to your right side.” (Rhia laughs.) Because I was so tense on both sides.

Rhia: Oh gosh. It's so real. So like start taking it seriously with, you know, carving out some time for yourself in the morning, come to my free master class. I'll teach you about stress… Evidence-based ways to reduce and manage stress. And start putting those things into your life little by little. Think about the mindsets that we've talked about. And when you are doing that work, over time, baby steps, you will protect your career, you will protect your mental and physical health, and it will be so worth your effort. 

If you are burned out, it's okay. It will be okay. You will get back to it. You will find your passion again. You will get back up to full capacity again eventually. And you will get there faster the sooner that you start respecting where you are right now and giving yourself the space to actually heal. 

For companies, start taking this seriously. Old school culture is dead. People are not accepting it anymore. Leadership is trying to go back. Oh, back to the office, back to the old way of doing things. A lot of CEOs can be incredibly stubborn in that way, thinking this is the way things have always been done.

We need to think about how to do things differently because a 50% burnout rate among the American workforce is unacceptable. Having 75% of lawyers be burned out is unacceptable. Having 86% of female attorneys burned out is unacceptable. if you care about having a workforce that is engaged, that is loyal, that feels excited to work, and that will get you the work product you want, you have to start taking this issue seriously. And call me if you need help.

Kate: I love it. That's the best thing to end on.

Josey: God, Rhia, you were like just such a great guest. I can't…

Kate: We would talk to you for five more hours if you let us. 

Josey: (Laughing) I know!

Rhia: And I feel like I have so much more to say too. 

Kate: I know, well, we'll- You know what? We'll have to have you back on. 

Josey: Yeah.

Rhia: Oo I’d love to. This is so fun. You guys are doing such amazing job…

Josey: Oh, thank you.

Rhia:  …and I really like feel honored and excited to be a part of it and also just to get you to watch y'all and what you're creating. I think it's amazing.

Kate: Oh, thank you so much.

Josey: Oh my gosh, yeah, no, we're very honored that you came on. I think I can speak for both of us, but everything that you've said has felt so relevant and so, I think, impactful for us just in our personal lives. So I'm so happy you came on.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: You guys are the best.

Outtro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.