Kate Bridal: I feel like I'm weirdly hearing, like, a slight echo of myself. No? Okay. 

Bob Simon: What did you take before you got on? Maybe that's it. 

Kate: Nothing, sad-  I've just- I'm gonna just drink some rye on an empty stomach. 

Bob: Oh, that's always tasty.

Josey Hoff: I am so upset. I just polished off my bottle of rye, like, a week ago, and I meant to get another bottle specifically for this episode. I felt like I had to have some bourbon or rye for it. I- I shit the bed. It's fine.

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 7

Kate: Honey, honey. 

Josey: Yes, darling? 

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

Josey: No. (Kate laughs) But let's do it anyway.

Kate: So rude!

Josey: I know. 

Kate: So rude to me. You- you're gonna have to. Because today we've got Robert Simon here, and please bear with me while I introduce all the stuff that he's up to: Co-founder of Justice HQ, membership-based organization for plaintiffs attorneys. He also co-founded the Simon Law Group with his brother, where he continues to practice as a trial attorney. And also has his own podcast, Bourbon of Proof, which is one of my favorite names for a podcast ever (Bob laughs), where he sips bourbon and talks with an awesome array of guests. So you can follow him on- on social media @planetfunbob. 

We're particularly excited to talk to you, Bob, because your story is about overcoming burnout and continuing to practice in a pretty stressful role as a trial attorney. We have talked to some other guests who have left traditional law, but you managed to stay in. So we can't wait to hear more about how you-

Josey: (Laughing) How you managed.

Kate: (Laughing) How you’re managing.

Bob: How I’m coping. We talked about the alcohol, I think that's coping. 

Kate: Yes.

Josey: Yeah. 

Bob: You know, I tell people all the time you have to, like, concentrate on the stuff that you love to do and then delegate all the rest. It’s no different if you're practicing law. Like, I probably haven't written a letter in, like, ten years. Right? I don't like to write. So I'm good at, you know, talking to juries and high-level stuff, expert depos, and, you know, bringing in a lot of cases, and I like all the tech stuff. So that's kinda what I do, what I love to do. Everything else I kinda delegate out. A lot of lawyers are too egotistical and think they have to do everything themselves, and they have to be the A-one. Like, c’mon, why?

Josey: It’s unnecessary. 

Kate: Yeah. And it's a way to burn yourself out too because if you don't feel like you're using yourself to the best of your ability and you're having to be pulled in these directions that you don't enjoy doing, and things that don’t- Obviously not everybody has the luxury of being able to delegate, but if you do and you're just clinging to work for yourself that you don't like…

(Kate laughs)

Bob: Oh yeah, and on the plaintiff side, on our side, since we're on contingency fee, we can co-counsel a bunch and just split the fees with other firms. 

Kate: Oh!

Bob: So that's like the great vehicle that people just don't- It's underutilized. So it's like if you need a law and motion department, just contract somebody in for ten percent or a flat fee to- to do your law and motion.

Josey: I hated being part of co-counsel, like, especially in class action cases. As the- the paralegal that then receives the document and has to file it when you have multiple people that have had multiple formats and eyes on it and… it's not enjoyable. So I- I quickly exited that. (Kate laughs.) But glad to know other people enjoyed it. 

Bob: Yeah. Depends on how many co-counsels you have on, like, some of those class or mass… 

Josey: So many.

Bob: But now it’s a lot of e-serve and stuff, which makes life a lot easier. 

Kate: Yeah. One of the positive changes that COVID affected, I think, is the amount of digital options that you have now in- in the legal system- not everywhere managed to catch up- but I feel like out of necessity so many courts and places opened up more options, which is nice. 

Bob: Yeah. We can practice anywhere virtually, the only thing you physically need to be present for is the actual trial. I think people still, like, waste a lot of time going to offices. Or-

Josey: It's crazy how you can now work anywhere.

Kate: Yeah. After being told for so long, like, “This job cannot be done remotely.”

Bob: Yeah. My firm now, I think we have like twenty-five lawyers and we're all remote. All, I think, sixty staff. We're all remote. 

Josey: Really? 

Bob: Yeah, yeah. 

Kate: That’s awesome. 

Bob: We just use the Justice HQ locations to, like, come in and collaborate or- or have fun, really, or if we need to take an in-person meeting. I have years I spent so much in an office space. And then after a while, I was like, the clients aren't even coming in here. Like, all we're doing is driving to a place and working together and then going home. 

Josey: As soon as things started to lift, there was this push, I noticed, in law firms especially, to- Everyone needs to get back into the office because, you know, we can't do our job otherwise. And it was so disheartening because it's like, you know, we have. We've functioned perfectly fine, and we've missed-

Kate: What have we been doing? 

Josey: Exactly. Everything has worked well and people are happier. Right? 

Bob: Mmhmm.

Josey: You know, people can go to their kitchen and make a decent meal or people can walk, you know, things like that- that I think it increased productivity because people were happier in their work environment. 

Bob: Less time on the road, all these other things. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Josey: Exactly.

Bob: We use it just like once a week if people wanna come in just for socialization purposes or building a community, which you can do a lot virtually too. I think that makes sense.

But I don't know, why waste people's time they could spend home with their families? But again, on my side, we're only- we don't get paid per hour. We get paid per hap. So we just have to be as efficient with our time as possible. 

Kate: Right.

Bob: No billable hours, thank god. 

Kate: Oh, that's amazing. 

Josey: Yeah it is. That's great. 

Kate: I wanna get more into that, but I also wanna get into kind of your background, your story with burnout, and then kind of your journey in overcoming it and how you wound up where you are now?

Bob: Yeah. So I was, you know, I grew up in Pittsburgh, came to LA for for law school. Honestly, it's freaking amazing here. No humidity. I'm not a fan of humidity.

Kate: Same. 

Bob: Son of a truck driver. One of five, tied both my bro and we- So I practiced for a few years at a law firm, small boutique law firm. Hustler at heart. So bringing in cases, developing relationships, trying a few cases, and then at some point, I had saved up enough money- And I'd also won a game show, a little fun fact, I won a game show. Put some money aside, and then started my practice, I think, three years out of law school… Four years, we'd launched four years out of law school. Brought in my brother because I was getting so busy, and I was actually contracting out the motion work to him, ‘cause he's great at that. I'm not. Started a firm.

And then after a few years, kind of reached to this powder keg where, like, I tried three cases one year. And then if you're doing that while trying to do everything at the firm, it's just recipe for ulcer. (All laugh) 

After that- that moment, I was ready to quit. Like, it was like, shit. I made a lot of money, but at what cost? Like I was stressed all the time. I'd win a trial and have immediate stress because I had something else coming up to deal with, like, literally the next hour.

Kate: Yeah. 

Bob: Lawyers are very egotistical creatures. (Kate laughs) Especially trial lawyers. And believe it or not they like to, like, get credit for everything. So I'm not gonna do that. I decided fundamentally to, rather than be at the top of the food trial chain is I would- Yes, I would do most of the trials to start, but I would teach all these young lawyers that we recruited, personalities out of law school, and get them the opportunity right away. I don't think access to the court has anything to do with age, or any demographic really. But you have to give that opportunity. So, made that conscious decision.

So now we've- I've worked through it where I used to have to try seven cases a year. So now I'm doing maybe one, maybe two, but these are selections that I get to make, and then I get to focus on other things that I'm passionate about, like my family and bourbon podcasts. (Kate laughs) But yeah, that's in a real big nutshell… And then started a legal tech company in 2019 right before the pandemic. So that's five-x since we started that company. And now it's- We're at an interesting point with that. So most of my time now is actually working with our software developers and then doing speaking engagements. 

Josey: So your practice runs itself essentially because you put the right people in place and you're able to kind of step back a bit.

Bob: So, Josey, thanks for saying in five words what I said in… twenty-five-

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Kate: Podcast over. Done. We nailed it. That's the paralegal in her. She's like, “How do I take all this verbose thing that an attorney just said and make it digestible?”

Josey: I've done this to Kate before too, so apologies. 

Kate: No. It's not- You don't have to apologize.

Josey: It's a summary in my brain, I think, and sometimes it just comes out. Point is that I think a lot of people when they are struggling with burnout often, they feel that they're presented with the option of getting out or kinda staying miserable. They don't see this avenue of how can I restructure what I do to fit what works for me and to fit a work-life balance?

Kate: Mhmm.

Josey: So I think it's important that we share how you did that. 

Bob: Yeah. Well and I think lawyers especially tend to sink into very unhealthy habits. 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Bob: And sometimes that unhealthy habit is, like, I need to make as as much money as I possibly can. In order to do that, I have to constantly work or do x y z. 

Kate: Yes. 

Bob: People take on too much of that stress intentionally. Like, it's this culture thing.

But I think the best thing that everybody listening should do is you find a mentor in your space, not so much that you wanna look like professionally with all the accolades and the money made, but the person you think succeeded at life, and then figure out how they're able to achieve it. Right? How are they able to spend so much time with their family yet have all of this- all of these other things too? I think the answer always ends up being that they do let other people succeed around them and they empower them to succeed.

Josey: I love that.

Kate: That's such a great way to look at that and it mentorship. And you're right, you know, the law is so centered on accolade and wearing burnout as a badge of courage in a way. You're expected to burnout. It's- it's a standard.

Bob: Correct. 

Josey: But you're not expected to let it to really you is the thing. 

Kate: Right. Experience all of the- the things that lead to burnout without burning out somehow, or if you do burnout, don't talk about it. And I know Bob you had mentioned, like, “recipe for ulcer.” You mean that literally, right? Like you- What were your symptoms of burnout? What… How did you start recognizing it in yourself?

Bob: Oh, shit, so... (Kate laughs) I'm a very chill, low-stress guy. Like, even if stuff looks catastrophic around me, doesn't matter. Like, just whatever, it is what it is. I came from nothing, I’ll go back to nothing. It'll be fine. So I never really had stress, and I was taking the bar. And I was like, as I'm studying for the bar, like, I'm getting all these extreme stomach pains. I'm like, shit, this must be stress. This must be what it is. Right? Must be it. Right?

The day before taking the bar, I was in such pain I had to go to the emergency room. And we're out, like, the middle of California, Ontario. So I go in there and they're like, “Well, your appendix has to come out.” And I said, “No, it doesn't need to come out.” (Kate laughs) Like, “Give me some of those pills and I'll go do it.”

And they gave they gave me the pills. I went and finished the test, went back and saw a specialist and found out that, like, it wasn't stress. I was just being so healthy from, like, protein shakes and a regimented schedule because I wasn't working that summer, I was just doing this. That I was so healthy that it caused, like, this acid reflux inflam- like yeah. 

Josey: Oh my god.

Bob: Because I was having these protein shakes, but there's all these things that my body should be having because it's just my genetics. And, like, it fucked me up. So I have to be on medication all the time. But the saving grace of that medication is I can eat and drink anything that I want as long as it's not like garlic, red wine. There's like a list of stuff that's not-

Kate: I'm sorry. No garlic? I'm out. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Bob: My mom's Sicilian, (Kate gasps) she slapped me in the face when she found out I couldn't have garlic.

Josey: As she should. 

Bob: Fast-forward a few years to when I'm having trials back to back to back. You know, I found out I do have stress. Like, don't carry it, people don't see it, but then it turns into an ulcer and it- you gotta deal with it, you gotta heal. And the only real way to heal that is just time and… But a lot of people glamorize the trial lawyer lifestyle because you see the sexy verdicts and these things and accolades.

But when you're on the road trying a case and you're staying at, like, the Holiday Inn Suites or something like that, and you're eating, like, whatever fast food’s generally in the area, and you're under heavy stress all week, and the next week… (Laughing) It is not a healthy lifestyle.

We try to teach our lawyers to meditate, take breaks, to, like, be healthy in the morning or do something, some kind of exercise during the day because it can really get a hold of you. You can embrace that stress like you said, Kate, and really be engulfed by it. 

So mid-twenty-tens, I think I did, like, three in a row and they were all long trials.

Josey: Oh my god.

Bob: I was five years being married, we’re trying to start a family. And that's- that's just a grind. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Bob: And when you come home on the weekend, you're still blank stare. But I- and that's what, again, finding good mentors is… You have to realize to, like, have an outlet for it, have a team around you. So it’s- when we try- do trials now it's fun, I have another attorney there with me. Someone back that's getting real time from the court reporter writing our motions. We have a team on chat boards at Justice HQ, and it's fun.

But it’s still stressful. The worst part is waiting for a jury. I say, you know what? I just don't do it anymore. I leave.

Kate: Just out. You're like, call me. Call me when it's happening. 

Bob: Don't even tell ,me tell me after it happens. Just, I'm gone. 

(Kate laughs)

Kate: So you mentioned, you know, that you were trying to start a family and- and you had kind of talked to us before about the fact that your wife was the person who, or one of the people who’d encouraged you to stay in the law, right? 

Bob: Yeah. 

Kate: I'm really interested to kind of hear what her perspective was there. Because I feel like if someone had told- If my husband had come to me when I was burnt out and been like, “I think you should stay in it,” I would have slapped him and been like, “Go away.” (Kate and Josey laugh.) “I'm leaving, and you will support me, how dare you.” But I’m interested to hear kind of what she was seeing and sort of what her- her thought was that, like… She must have thought you would be happier and and if you stayed in, right?

Bob: Well, I mean, she knows, she's an ent- she's- we- She grew up in Pittsburgh too, both entrepreneurs. And one of the few trials that I had lost, it was a long trial. And I remember being like, shit. We just, like, lost all the money for the firm because you have- you have to front your own costs. So I think we're in at, like, three hundred grand. The next week… This happened Thursday, the next Monday another one of our trials is supposed to start. And I was just like, fuck. I'm not gonna do this. Like, how can I get back up? And and my wife was just- She just was like, “You know, you gotta get back up on that horse get in front of that jury. There's no other thing that…”

I don't do drugs. My only high is literally being in the courtroom, and she knows that about me. So she said go back out there and do it. And I did. We ended up getting a very big verdict and now it’s- They appealed but now it’s an appellate decision that's favorable for all plaintiff consumers that's commonly cited, and that would have never had happened had I just continued to spiral about it. 

Kate: Mhmm.

Bob: So,you know, get back in that ring and do what you love. And it really, I forgot about it after a day. As soon as the jury walks in, it was like, oh, game back on. 

Josey: It's uncommon, I think, that a spouse supports you getting back out there and doing it when she sees the kind of burnout… And oftentimes, the- the hours and time, it can take away from the family unit. 

Bob: So what I tell trial lawyers, if you're gonna go down this path, if you really wanna be a trial lawyer, you have to pick your partner in life very carefully because they have to understand -- 

Josey: Mhmm.

Bob: -- that this is the chosen path. You know, my wife has her other businesses going on.

Now we have three kids, fast-forward, but we're friends with all lawyers. You know, that- the spouses lean on each other and one another when these things happen. Like, they all get it. And they laugh about us, like how psychotic we are, which is fun.

Kate: It's like a military spouse community. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: You need, as a spouse, that group of people who is just like, “Remember that time they were gone when we couldn't talk to them, and you had to do everything, and also it was COVID, and also it was distance learning, and…?” (Bob laughs) It's a unique set of challenges that come with that job as well, obviously, but it's true for trial attorneys. The next great piece of advice, start spouse groups for spouses of trial attorneys.

Bob: It's a good idea. After every, like, long slug-out trial, get a huge verdict, kind of that ultimate high, and then I'm just, I'm going to sleep. Like, people are like, “Aren't you gonna go out and like party or celebrate?” I'm like, I'm really fucking tired. I’m gonna go to sleep, and then after two days, like, you're still a zombie trying to, like, re acclimate to the real world. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: And when you're so deeply involved in a case like that, it is all you can think about. It's all you can dream about. It's- Everything that you do is really involved with that. And so it almost feels like you're kinda losing something when you're when you're done with it, you're like, “Oh, this this suddenly over. What am I thinking about?”

Bob: Yeah. We- It's weird that when it's gone, it's like this part of you is gone. 

Josey: Yeah.

Bob: I- I tell people sleep is extremely important. Don't undervalue the power of of getting sleep and get ahead of your day. Like, I'm- I'm usually a sleep by eight-thirty, up by four-thirty-five AM kinda guy.

Kate: Oh wow.

Bob: And it's just because I can't I gotta get ahead of the day, and my children.

Kate: I was gonna say that sounds about right for someone with- with little kids. You're actually getting- managing to get up before them at- if you get up at four-thirty?

Bob: Yeah. I mean, usually it is. Today was not. (Kate and Josey laugh) Like, it was just a a siren alarm from the three year old, who had to go potty and couldn't get her pants down. I couldn't let her wake the rest of the children up. 

Josey: That is a very distressing situation for her, you know, I have to say.

Kate: I would be freaking out. Yeah.

Josey: I would be upset too. 

Bob: Twice a week I can’t get my pants down to go to the bathroom.

(All laugh.)

Kate: That's a symptom of burnout we haven't talked about yet. Are you having problems getting your pants down to go to the bathroom? You might be burned out. 

(All laugh) 

Josey: So you have a group of people that are now managing your practice, and you're encouraging a lot of self care elements so that they can continue this work, continue trial work. When I think trial work, when I think litigation, when I think anything like that, and then also self-care and trying to make space for that and encourage it… the two are just so conflicting in my mind. And so I'm curious as you're starting it, how did you really keep those two balanced?

Bob: I think you have to be very, like, intentional with it and, like, force yourself to do stuff. I remember one of my big mentors who's a huge trial lawyer… Like, I took a day out just to talk to him about stuff at (In a snobbish voice) his Malibu beach house. 

Kate: (Also snobbishly) Oooooo!

(Josey laughs)

Bob: He told me that he makes every, like, time every week, at least half the day to spend time with his wife. And he's like, I just shut it down, and that's what I intentionally do, because he's like, you know, once he's in trial, it's just not gonna be there. So you gotta be intentional about it and follow through with it because as a lawyer, there's always something I could be doing. I could always find some case to work on or another avenue to explore. You just have to shut it down. 

Yeah, that’s- And we don't bill per hour, so it's like, well, I only care about the success. So it's like, well, if you need to golf half the day- We have a lot of golfers in my firm, I'm not one of them- but if you wanna golf half the day, and then if you wanna spend the next half of your day working and you still get the best result, I mean, that's how you operate. It's fine with me. Like, who am I to say no? But as long as this stuff's getting done, that's- that's all good, my opinion.

But yeah, intention of- Being intentional with every single action. I always set like huge like, even unrealistic goals, like, where I want my life to be. And I put things in place to make sure that those things happen even though it sounds so crazy. My unrealistic goal in five years, I'll have- I'll have citizenship in Ireland and spend five year- five months of the year there. 

Josey: Yes. 

Bob: Drinking and playing Dungeons and Dragons in a castle. 

(Kate exclaims.)

Kate: Wait, can I come play D&D with you in the- I would- Oh, we've had this conversation, we're both D&D nerds. 

Bob: We play every Tuesday night too. (Kate gasps) So we have our game that's gonna come out, called Ravel, and it's gonna automate a lot of the bad you don't like about D&D. 

Kate: Yes!

Bob: All of it will be automated. So it'll be so much easier for role play and have fun. 

Kate: Oh, I'm gonna send that to my- our- our dungeon master. 

Josey: Oh, my goodness.

Kate: Josey and I were just texting about who we dated in high school. I can't remember exactly how the conversation started. I was like, “Oh, my first boyfriend was our DM in D&D,” and she was like,” I don't know what any of those letters mean.”

Josey: She said “D&D,” Yeah. And I was like, “What the hell is that?”

Kate:  I was like, oh, we dated very different people in high school. 

(Kate laughs.)

Josey: Yeah. 

Bob: We were heavy into it from, like, twelve years old to about sixteen, and then we could drive, and then we were just like chasing girls all the time. But we would literally go from whatever sporting practice we had over to my house to literally just pull out the map and roll. (Josey laughs) And I say if you can get back to having the fun you could have as a child, let's get back to the beginning, you've made it.

Kate: I love that.

Josey: I love it.

Kate: Drink some Mountain Dew and, like…

Bob: Code Red.

Kate: Knock it back.

Josey: I don't identify.

Kate: For my birthday, I- my husband was like, “Do you wanna drink Mountain Dew and, like, play Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 2?” I was like, “Yes. Yes. I do.”

Bob: Yes. Why would you ask me such a rhetorical question?

(Bob laughs.)

Kate: Like, I know. “Why do you ask me things to which you already know the answer? Go fetch the Dew.” 

Josey: (Laughing) “Go fetch the Dew.”

Kate: Yes.

Bob: When my brother and I, like, my twin brother and I, we turned forty, people asked us, what we wanted, we were like, “We just wanna play D&D and dungeon crawl all day.” So we, like, had a bunch of our friends over. We pre roll these characters. And we did it from, like, eight AM to six PM.

Kate: Yes!

Bob: That was our day. And it was, like, the best day ever. 

(Bob laughs)

Kate: That is the best. Do you have, like, a cool gaming table set up? I'm sorry, Josey, we've completely derailed this podcast about…

Bob: We’ve hijacked.

Josey: No. I want you to keep- I want you to keep going, please. 

Bob: We have, at my brother's house, we have a pool-sized table–

Kate: (Whispering) Yes!

Bob: -- that has all where you can put all your stuff in it. 

Kate: Like the drawers?

Bob: Oh, yeah. 

Josey: (Laughing) What? Oh my god.

Bob: Oh, yeah. And if we can- we've- the ga- The new game system we have, you're gonna be able to load your maps and your characters all onto it. So it's, like, sitting at, like, the Star Wars and you're, like, where the futuristic-looking tables- and playing and we're gonna be able to put your character over at the end and be able to Bluetooth show your scores–

Kate: Oh, what?!

Bob: --and all this other cool shit. So, Josey, short answer is, yes, we do.

(Bob and Kate laugh.)

Josey: Why do you need drawer- Is this not a video game?

Bob: No.

Kate: No.

Josey: Oh, I thought it was a video game. So I'm like, what do you need the drawers for?

Kate: No. You, like, make character sheets… Yeah, you have dice.

Josey: At first I thought it was some weird sex role play thing, and then I thought it was a video game because people were like, “Josey, that's not what this is.”

Bob: It could be anything you want to be. 

Kate: It really literally can.

Josey: That’s dangerous. 

Bob: We rename our character to our name in Zoom whenever we play on- virtually. And I was- Sometimes I forget to change it back. So I've logged into a mediation, and my name was like, “Oom.” Like, those are my characters, O-O-M. Like, who's Oom coming in here? (Kate laughs) I was like, oh, sorry guys. That's my-

Kate: Okay, this is my last-

Bob: Necromancer.

Kate: This was my question is what char- what, like, what build are you? What- what is Oom?

Bob: He was a necromancer gnome that actually classed over to a bard. So he's playing with bones. It was a very interesting character, chef’s kiss.

Kate: That sounds hilarious. 

Bob: It was hilarious. 

Kate: My most recent character was a tiefling barbarian.

Bob: Oh. 

Kate: One or two stats I pretty much god-rolled, and she was badass. (Bob laughs) That was a lot of fun. But I happened to play it- My husband was playing a bard, and I happened to like get high charisma. 

Bob: Oh, yeah. 

Kate: He start playing the violin to try and get us something- Josey, you're like, so baffled- So he's like trying to charm somebody with the violin, and he rolled a one.

Bob: Ooo.

Kate: And was like, “Can I roll to take the violin away from him and play it?” And I rolled a nat twenty, and it was like this tiefling barbarian stole the bard's violin and just did it so much better, and I completely- I got us whatever piece of equipment we were trying to get.

Bob: By the way, you should put in this podcast that wherever we start talking about D&D, you should put a little disclaimer, “If you want to skip the nerd talk…”

Josey: Also, this is really interesting–

Kate: Is it?

Josey: -- if you don't know about it because it sounds completely insane.

Kate: It is insane. 

Bob: You can do anything you want, it’s fine.

Kate: We should bring you in. 

Bob: And with our new game, we'd be able to want have to worry about all the calculations and all this other boring stuff and rolling.

Josey: I think Kate's on board. 

Kate: That's- I do like the physical act of rolling, but- so that's something that I'm like, I would wanna have real dice. But I don't love being like, “Wait, what's my… what are my points in this? How much plus what do I get?” It's a pain. 

Bob: Exactly.

Kate: Lot of math. 

Josey: Math? No. Oh, that's not a game for me. No. 

Kate: Simple math. 

Josey: Well, simple math still.

Kate: Well, and if you have a good dungeon master, they will help you. 

Bob: Exactly. 

Josey: What?! I will never apologize for being a nerd on this podcast again. 

Kate: No.

Bob: There you go.

Kate: Nor should you.

Josey: Because that was… That was special. (Bob and Kate laugh) That was something else. 

Bob: Next level. 

Kate: Next level nerdery. 

Josey: I think the takeaway is that you have something for both of us. For Kate, it's D&D. For me, it's the the barrels of whiskey that you have, and I’m there.

Kate: Yeah, something for everybody. 

Bob: Even for the game, my dad, who's a big whiskey drinker, never played any video games. We brought him in when we were test-driving the beta. We had him play this D&D game, and he had so much fun, he was like crying laughing on the floor.

Kate: I love it!

Josey: Well, if- if- if Dad can learn it, maybe I can learn. 

Kate: I think you would actually be really good at it because you would come at it completely outside of the box, which is always the best is watching your dungeon master contend with -- 

Bob: Yeah.

Kate: -- people in their party making absolutely batshit insane decisions that they did not expect anybody to make. 

Bob: We actually wanna make this a very good, like, tribe tool for lawyers. Like, the trial lawyers' college that people go up into, like, this big mountain range in Wyoming, and you're up there for three weeks without cell reception and people make you, like, deep dive into to you as the human. I didn't go through this, but it's like, I know a lot of lawyers that have. It's like, I was like, I just wanna do this and make people role play with Dungeons and Dragons. Like, fuck going up into a mount without reception. That's like my worst nightmare, by the way, not having reception for more than like three hours.

Josey: It's the best- It's the only time in my career as paralegal that I ever actually was on vacation is if I went camping in the mountains and I didn't have reception. I couldn't check my phone. It's a lot of anxiety the first day or two depending on what's going on at work, but then all of a sudden you're just like, I can't control this and you just totally disconnect and you're like, oh, is this the world around me? This is beautiful.

Kate: For me, it's the opposite. I start getting stressed toward the end of it. Especially when I was burned out, I would draw that line and be like, “okay, I'm on vacation, donezo, not looking at alerts,” and then a couple of days toward the end of the vacation, I was like, I have to look at my email because all I'm doing now is spiraling about what's in there and what could possibly be going wrong and sometimes checking it would allow me to calm down again and check back out. 

Bob: Yeah. Always when you come back from vacation, I always try to do it…. Like, if you're coming back, you gotta go to work on a Monday, don't come back on Sunday ‘cause it’s like you're running into the fire. Like, give yourself a buffer day.

Josey: I didn't learn that until this year. 

Kate: Boundaries are hard. Leading us back into actual discussion of the topic at hand. (Kate laughs) It sounds like you're pretty great with your- at your firm about allowing your associates to sort of set those boundaries and encouraging mindfulness and these meditation techniques and all of this. So what do you try and do as the person at the head of this firm to kind of encourage other folks to set those boundaries or how do you set them from your end?

Bob: You have to just encourage it. Like, we act- we have for our staff, they have every four day work weeks and every other day, every other week maybe they do a Friday or, you know, I forget how we stagger that stuff.

Kate: That's awesome. 

Bob: But, yeah, we're always just very result-driven not matter. It doesn't matter how you get there how much time you spend doing it. We only hire personalities. I don't care where people went to school. I don't give a shit. I hired some of the trial lawyers only, but everybody else gets filled in from their positions down. Just like, if you like that person, I trust you, off we go.

Josey: No. I love that. 

Kate: Yeah. It it's but you're right. The ego, I think. And- and I would venture to say that also a lot of people go into the law are relatively type A, they like to be in control. Even just thinking about it for myself, I'm like, if I ran a business, would I have a confidence to tell other people below me to just like hire whoever they wanted and I wouldn't- And that makes me nervous in my soul just thinking about it. And I'm like, but why? If you hire the right people, you should be able to trust them. There's no reason not to let that go.

Bob: Yeah. It uses like the, we call it “delegate and trust.” The key to any good law firm, or I think any industry is if you have really good middle management, people in the middle that are really good at hiring and managing employees and keeping everybody happy. That's the A-one key.

Josey: But you said that your personality is a little bit more chill and relaxed too, and I think that that lends itself to being able to choose you know, mid-level people that can actually do the job and feel like you can step back and and let them do what they're supposed to do. To Kate's point about being type A, I think that is often the type that get into law. And case in point, I could never do, like, a group project in in college. Never. I hated every single moment of it because I was like, “If I don't have control over every aspect of this project, it could be less than what I want it to be.”

Kate: And you probably wound up doing most of the work because of that. 

Josey: Yes I did. And it's the same when I was a paralegal. If I was working with multiple people or multiple firms, you know, especially when we did class action work. I made my own bed essentially because I would get something, I'm like, “No, I have to edit.” I would be a horrible at setting up a business because I cannot delegate. And I think people oftentimes that are getting into the law, especially partners have that same tendency of not being able to delegate and not have complete control over everything. 

Bob: And that's why a lot of them fail or get stressed out. I mean, you have to embrace that mindset.

Kate: It's a recipe for burnout on both ends.

Bob: The one time I ever went to a psychiatrist was on this exact issue. The TL;DR was you gotta learn how to let go. If you wanna do what you wanna do and have any quality of life, you can’t keep putting this on you, because I try to wear everything and do it all. We were talking- I’m in, like, a group of other executives, and we were talking about this, and we all agreed, it's like, you- you just have to be okay with, like, eighty percent. That perfectionist paralysis thing is a real thing that companies get stuck on or comp- firms get stuck on. It's like, you can't do a hundred percent all the time of everything.

Josey: Is that something that you had to learn as you went, or did it come somewhat actually given your personality?

Bob: Well, I think a little bit of both, but there's things that I wish I had done earlier on. I wish I had- for lack of a term, better term- support groups of people like mentorship groups, mastermind type groups like this, the cultures we're trying to build and all these other things that we're doing with Justice HQ and others. I’m in one called YPO, Young Professionals organization, and they put you in these micro groups of other successful people, but they're all different industries. I'm the only lawyer or legal tech person there. 

Kate: Oh that’s so cool.

Bob: Yeah. And it's just like different way of thinking. You realize that we all think the same in this group and how people deal with these different things, and then just helping each other get through it. 

Kate: Yeah. Relatability is huge and community is so big. That's something since kind of coming into legal tech that I've been learning a lot more about. I mean, this podcast wouldn't be happening without community. 

I love to hear that that's kind of being fostered because- and I've said this multiple times, I- I'm gonna have to cut it out of most episodes- But you know, when I was experiencing burnout, I just felt alone, and I think that's what a lot of people do. And especially in the legal profession, as we've said, you put a lot of the stuff on yourself, and when you're in that kind of profession, when you start burning out, you then put all of that on yourself.

You're like, “Well, I can't hack it. I'm not good enough. I overestimated myself. I chose to do this work that I actually am not capable of doing and that's me, that's all me.” The thing that fixed that for me was listening and learning that other people felt that way. 

Bob: Everybody feels that way. You just have to normalize it and talk about it more and identify ways to- to help. I sometimes feel like I'm super-charged off of stress, like, it makes me better. And then I laugh at myself because I think I'm like Electro from- one of the villains from Marvel, just like harnessing all this–

Kate: Yep. 

Bob: Stress energy and be able to, like, shoot it out. 

Kate: Yep.

Bob: And then just being able to laugh at yourself. 

Kate: A sense of humor is is key. Laugh to keep from crying. Right? Like…

(Bob laughs.)

Josey: It's a real thing.

Bob, I have to come back to the fact that you are from Pittsburgh. And I know this is derailing from the podcast, and I accept it, but after the Dungeons and… What is it? 

Kate: Dragons. 

Josey: Dragons. Dungeons and Dragons thing, I feel like I can. I love Pittsburgh. I went to visit, and it has become such a cool city. How did you leave it?

Bob: So, first of all, I loved it. I love it there, and I'm- Going back to the beginning of this, I fucking hate humidity. And if you’ve ever been in Pittsburgh in the summer-

Josey: Okay, yeah.

Bob: Like DC, DC's built on a swamp. I was there for four years. Why I left DC?

Josey: Horrifying.

Bob: Yeah. Can't do it. 

Kate: I gotta say, I love the desert. My skin, my hair, everything is like, “Yes, please!” I never would have thought of it growing up in Minnesota where there's water every three feet. No. The desert is the place to be.

Josey: It is a thing. The humidity is rough. It is, but it's just such a cool city. 

Kate: I've never been, I wanna go. 

Bob: It's a nice place. 

Josey: It's the people. The people ARE what made it for me. It was- I felt the same when I went to Buffalo, New York. 

Bob: Same. 

Josey: Because it's kind of that old, like, steel town, industrial vibe where they've had a hard time. They're coming back up. And so the people are just super down to earth. They're very welcoming. They're very- there's no pretenses. They're just hanging out, have a good time. And if you are a decent fucking person, they're gonna probably talk to you because they're just very kind people. Big fan of Pittsburgh. I keep thinking about moving there, to be honest. 

Kate: I have a hankering for Chicago, but I can't pull it off. 

Josey: Chicago’s cold. 

Kate: Well, I’m from Minnesota, so I don't care about that. Cold's fine by me. (Bob laughs) I also do have to ask, especially knowing that you are from Pennsylvania. How often are you told that you look like, Rob McElhenney from Always Sunny?

Bob: All the time.

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Kate: I figured.

Bob: Every day. 

Kate: No, that's funny. I- After our first meeting with you, I was like, “You know who he looks like…” to Josey. And she was like, “Fuck, that's who it is!”

Bob: Yeah. But I'm I'm Fat Mac from the Fat Mac episodes, (Kate and Josey laugh) and my brother’s like the Fit Mac. 

Josey: Have you watched Pittsburgh Dad?

Bob: Oh, yeah. (In Pittsburgh accent) “Pittsburgh Dad dahntahn an’ ‘at.” Oh yeah, I know Pittsburgh Dad. 

Josey: The accent too is so on point.

Kate: It’s a tough accent.

Josey: Really? 

Kate: Yeah. 

Bob: It’s a tough one to hear. 

(Bob laughs)

Kate: Pittsburgh and Philly, yeah. Is Pittsburgh really different from the Philly accent?

Bob: Yeah.

Kate: ‘Cause I'm like, I have trouble- I'm pretty good with accents. Not to brag, but I won the voice and speech award from the American Academy of Dramatic Arts.

(Kate laughs)

Bob: Pittsburgh accent, remember this: There's no- “T” and “H” does not exist together in the language. 

Kate: Oh, okay. 

Bob: It's not “this and that.” It's-

Kate: Okay. 

Bob: “‘is an ‘at,” and every “a” is “eh.” No, “you guys,” it's “yinz.”

Josey: “Yinz.” That's what it is.

Bob: (In Pittsburgh accent) Yinz guys gahn dahntahn. So, “o” and “w” is “eh.” So “ah,” “eh.” So “gahn dahntahn ‘n’ ‘at. Gahn dahn to watch ‘em Stiller's play.” That's how you say it, Pittsburghese.

Josey: It's like the south saying y'all.

Bob: Yeah. They're called gum bands, not rubber bands. They're called sweepers, not vacuum.

Josey: Sorry, I derailed the conversation into something-

Kate: No, it's okay. I'm like, now I'm like thinking about Minnesota-isms, because of course we have plenty. Well, the biggest Minnesota-ism is… Okay. What do you call the game where you go around and you tap people on the head and say, “duck, duck, duck,” and then choose someone?

Bob: Duck, Duck, Goose.

Josey: Goose?

Kate: Incorrect. 

Bob: Is it Duck, Duck, Moose for you? 

Kate: It is Duck, Duck, Gray Duck in Minnesota.

Josey: The fuck?

Kate: Literally, the only state in the United States that calls it Duck, Duck, Gray Duck. Wisconsin doesn't do it. Wisconsin's usually our buddy. 

Bob: Gray Duck.

Kate: I don't know if it's to give us more time to run or what. (Josey laughs) Because “goose” is one syllable. “Grey duck,” you have a little more ti- you're like, “Oooop! Alright, here I go! You know, you can get out.

(Josey laughs.)

Josey: You went to Law school in California, right?

Bob: Yeah. Undergrad, DC, then law school, CA. 

Josey: Where in DC? 

Bob: George Washington.

Josey: I knew it. 

Bob: My dad played football for two years at Pitt, then had twins, so went to work for UPS. So we're the first ones graduate from college. And at our high school, smaller Pittsburgh high school, and they had like somebody from GW come and say, “This is the school you go to for, like, valedictorians, look at all the success.” My brother and I are like, “Let's go there.” So we applied to one school, early decision, got in with a scholarship. We're like, “We're done.” Already on. 

Kate: Both of you! That's amazing!

Josey: Yeah.

Bob: Well, I- I lived with my brother almost until we got married.

Josey and Kate: Wow. 

Bob: It was like one or two years we didn't live together. Yeah. 

Kate: That's awesome. And now you practice law together.

Bob: Yeah. He manages- So Brad is co-founder of Justice HQ, co-founder, Simon Law Group. He manages the entire law firm. So he does more of the day-to-day that and the video game stuff.

Josey: Are are you guys similar, like, personality-wise? Is he more type A than you do you think? 

Bob: I think we're both type A, but he's way more introverted. He could be in his gym shorts all day and never see a human and it'd be the perfect day. 

Kate: That's me. Weirdy, that's how I am too. I would rather not speak to anyone all day and be alone a hundred percent of the time. Well, you are like that as well, Josey, but- We're both like that, but no one believes it when I say it myself.

Josey: Yeah. I was gonna say, people know I'm like that because of my demeanor. People don't assume you're like that.

Kate: No. I need to recharge, being by myself is my favorite.

Josey:  I have to say, like, your story of burnout is so just speaking for myself, especially someone that did wanna go to law school at the time… Had I known about stories like that where people had found alternative avenues and had boundaries and put different things in place to make it work for them and the life that they wanted, it would be a much different situation for me now. And I love that you're sharing that story, to be honest.

Bob: I love- So we, you know, I do a lot of talks at law school and stuff, and I- If you can find a way to do what you're passionate about, and then also make it profitable, then you've won at life. Maybe you find out that you're so good at, you know, rainmaking that you make that your full-time gig, or sometimes you realize that you just love writing. Like, I have a few friends, and they love doing that, they do apellate work. Josey likes it too. I mean…

Josey: I love apellate work. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: That was my favorite.

Kate: She loves outlining. The first moment she encountered IRAC, she was like, “This is it.” And I was like, I've never related to a person less in my entire life than when she told me that.

(Kate laughs.)

Josey: Just I remember the professor presented these cases and she was like, “IRAC this,” and just gave me the outline and I was like, “Well, this makes sense. I don't have to impose any of my opinions. I don't have to get creative. I just identify, write, and it's done.”

Kate: And to me, I was like, “What do I do without imposing my own opinions and getting creative? (Bob laughs) What am I?”

Josey: Exactly. Yeah. And I- it's very difficult for me to do that. 

Kate: I did wanna ask one more question, Bob, which was: Obviously, you're working on contingency- and this might just be my ignorance of the… You know, I came from nonprofit, so I'm, like, out of my league completely in any kind of firm talk. But what was behind that decision that you were like, “We're not doing the billable hour?”

Bob: Access to justice is a huge thing for me. 

Kate: Yes.

Bob: I've seen some very bad things happen to families, and if they had to find a way to pay per hour would absolutely break them, but there's no reason that this should ever happen. I actually believe in the inverse model, I think that that per-hour model perpetuates people wasting time to bill more. There's so much litigation drawn out in trials just because people are paying per hour just dragging it out. 

Kate: Yes. 

Josey: Mmhmm. The thing with contingency work, which I appreciate and I like, and I- I think that is something in which you can represent who you want to and feel like you're doing the right thing… A lot of people go into a lot of debt to go to law school. They don't come from a background where they have much money. They need to be able to go somewhere where they have a guaranteed salary that will enable them to pay that back and to have a life. Even just for me as a paralegal, and I can only imagine for those that actually go to law school and have that amount of debt, contingency work can seem very daunting, and nonprofit work can seem impossible. 

Kate: But are you only paid a salary at… Like, in contingency?

Bob: No. 

Josey: No. They're not. But I think a lot of people don't quite realize that sometimes.

Bob: So I had the option coming out of law school to work, make like a buck twenty five in big law or take like 55k, but a third of what I brought in. And I took the latter, and I'm thankful every day that I did. But I- a lot of lawyers, once you have a license, you have the ability to fee share, there's nothing stopping… I always tell people you are literally one case away from retirement if you wanted to. So why don't you put yourself in position to find that at all times? 

Josey: But see that still feels like a risk to a lot of people, I would argue. 

Bob: Yeah.

Josey: I think for a lot of people, especially when a risk seems like an impossible choice because you have so little to risk or your family is–

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: --depending on you to make a stable income- Not that contingency work is necessarily this, but when you are looking at it from that perspective of, “I can't risk not being able to provide for these people and for myself.” It often feels like you don't have a choice to join the firm that allows you to bill hours and have a consistent income. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: And you have to be willing to take a risk. 

Bob: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah. And I think to Bob's point is that showing them what they can accomplish, what they can win, what they can do at that is really important because a lot of people, especially when they're so concerned about the risk, don't know that, really. And so if there is a salary and there often is, it's doable. I just know, even from my perspective, and that was just as a paralegal with just undergraduate debt, I was like, “There's no way I'm gonna go work for a firm that's completely plaintiff and contingent. I am going to go to the big law firm because I know for certain I will make the money and there will be the money for to pay me so that I can pay off this and take care of these things.”

Bob: It's a hundred percent a risk, and I just feel like the risk is gonna-

Josey: It does pay off.

Bob: I always say if you take this risk and it doesn't work, like, Biglaw will be like, “I love you. You wanna take this risk on yourself and yeah, come back to the the dark side.”

Kate: For some people. For some people that’ll happen.

Josey: I do agree that most they would take them back. I think, again, it’s just a mentality is that people think that going to contingent and going back to Biglaw is not not option.

Bob: Hm.

Josey: It's just about understanding that it is. 

Kate: Well, that's part of this podcast, right, is giving people their options, telling people what the options are to combat your burnout and not every option is gonna work for everybody. The goal is that each of these episodes speaks to somebody who's out there and feeling alone and feeling that they don't have options. 

Bob: Josey, do you know what has unlimited options? (Long pause) Dungeons and Dragons! 

(Bob and Kate laugh)

Josey: Oh my fuck! I knew. I fucking knew it.

Outtro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.