Matt Margolis: I’ve been following the Lewis Brisbois, like…

Josey Hoff: My god.

Kate Bridal: We maybe have to talk about that. It's- By the time this comes out, it's not gonna be relevant anymore, but like…

Matt: It'll always be relevant to me. 

Josey: Yeah, it's-

Matt: I've never- I've not seen something where I've hated everybody involved… in years. 

(Kate laughs.)

Josey: Yeah. 

Matt: It's al- It's refreshing, where you finally don't have a protagonist, you only have villains. It's not a hero's journey. It's truly a villain's journey.

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it.

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. 

Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 5

Kate: Honey, honey?

Josey: Yes, darling?

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

Josey: Hell yeah I do.

Kate: That's a good answer. Especially because today, we're lucky enough to be joined by Matt Margolis. If you don't know Matt as the Head of Community at Lawtrades, you may know him from his TikTok series, where he plays the much beset upon in-house attorney who's always fielding ridiculous requests from sales and marketing. You can follow him on social media at itsmattslaw. Matt, thank you so much for coming on the show! 

Matt: I appreciate it, guys. This is near and dear to my heart, because I think I've burned out… I have to like think about it. There's, like… Okay, there's like- There’s like time periods. Like, maybe three or four times? And every time is different, and, like, I love talking about it because it- I think… It's almost like you're, you're like- I… We all have this shared experience, right? Especially in law, like, you're a legal professional, and burnout is so ubiquitous in the, you know, in this market that, like, you're like, “Oh yeah, I burnt out during…” and someone, like, in the crowd will be like, “Me too, man! What's up?”

Kate: Uh-huh. 

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Matt: And someone else is like, “Yeah, me too!” And it's like, this whole big experience. I love talking about it because everyone's like, “Yeah, same.” Ugh. That's the worst. 

Kate: That's why-

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Oh, we- that's what we started noticing, like, everyone we knew: paralegals, attorneys, everyone we talked to, people who are still in it that we all know are burned out or burning out or just escaped burnout. Like, it's it's everywhere.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And that's why we wanted to do this podcast and talk about it because we're like, there must be so many sources of it--

Matt: Oh yeah.

Kate: --in this industry specifically to have this many people burning out. 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Okay, back to the Lewis Brisbois stuff. 

Matt: It was- I was at- I was at my nephew's birthday party, and I- I get sent that article. Right? And it has the email.

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: And it was like, “Hey, dad, you want to see something fucked up?” (Kate and Josey laugh) And he's- and he's- Like, we're at, like, a kid's birthday. It was a one year- It was a one-year birthday party, and he was like, “Yeah.” So he grabs my phone and he goes, “This is, like, lawyers?” I'm like, “This is lawyers.” He said, “This is disgusting.”

So, like, I showed him the rest of it. And that was before all the- the- I’m Jewish. So all the Jewish comments -- 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Matt: -- and the Jewish comments came out and I'm like, oh my god. This is, like, the worst thing. 

Josey: So bad.

Matt: Like, it was already really fucking bad, and it just kept going. It just kept going. And-

Kate: Yeah. They hit everything. They were like, we got- we got the racism, we got the antisemitism, the sexism. Just really covered… Ran the whole gamut. 

Josey: Went all-in.

Matt: Homophobia, the whole gamut. I'm- I'm utterly shocked that there wasn't something weird in there. Like, xenophobia to aliens or something. “Damn aliens in the sky!” 

Josey: Right?

(Kate laughs.)

Kate: Like, actual aliens. 

Matt: And the- the firm, like, used it as effectively as, like, cannon fodder. They were like, “Look at these emails we found!”

Kate: And you're like, yeah, did you…? There's no way you didn't know that these guys had this attitude while you working with them. It's not- it's not making you look as good as you think this is making you look right now. 

Josey: Clearly not hiding it very well.

Matt: I- I- I spoke to another attorney about this today, and he's like, they're employment attorneys. So they probably see this stuff day in, day out, and they literally are at this point, they, like, they don't even care. 

Kate: Yeah.

Matt: Like, “Whatever, emails, I don’t give a shit. I've seen emails where x y z has been discussed!” Right? 

Josey: Yeah.

Matt: And they just don't even think about it, or they're such rainmakers that they're like…

Kate: They feel untouchable. 

Matt: Yeah.

Kate: Well, and now they, like, resigned from their own firm that they started because…

Matt: Blank- Now it's Blank and Blank. Right? 

Kate: Oh my god. 

Josey: (Laughing) Blank and Blank.

Matt: Blank, Blank, and Associates. (Kate laughs.) Yeah. It's called Dot, Dot, Dot.

Kate: Ellipsis.

Matt: We call it The Ellipse. 

Kate: Ellipse, the Firm. Yeah. But you know that, like, that shit is everywhere in firms. 

Matt: My lesson is now whenever I see something like this, I'm going to blast it into the sky. I don't care if it's, like, such a common occurrence in the profession. And, like, everyone sees it, everyone hears about it. At this point, I hate the apathy to it.

Kate: Yes.

Matt: Like, fuck it. 

Kate: Yeah!

Matt: Then we're gonna then we're gonna talk about how ridiculous this is, because you're right. A hundred percent correct. Like, there are- there are firms that started because, like, the Jews, I, again, I use this from personal experience. There are firms that started because the Jews weren't allowed to practice these places.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Matt: It's- it's that- that- And that same mentality, including women weren't allowed to practice, people of color weren't allowed to practice, all these different people were not allowed to practice law. And, like, you- To tell- To say, like, “Yeah, okay, like, it's all gone away”? Of course not. 

Kate: No. 

Matt: But when I see it, I'm gonna, like, blow it to the sky as much as I can.

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: Well, let's get into the topic at hand. So burnout, of course. So, Matt, yeah, would love to hear a little bit about your- your experience and and your story with burnout. 

Matt: My favorite topic. 

Josey: I feel like your- Kind of what you just said, Matt, about having different sections of burnout throughout your story is so common, especially in the legal field. 

Kate: Mhmm.

Josey: I know I experienced it, because you transition hoping that the next little thing in legal that you do is gonna work. And then you try again, and then you try again, and you're like, “What the fuck is happening, man?”

Matt: It's just a different flavor burnout, that's all it is. 

Josey: Exactly.

Kate: Yep.

Matt: It's like the worst ice cream you've ever had. (Kate and Josey laugh.) And you just get like a brain freeze every time. You're like, “This is so terrible. But, but it's ice cream so I’ll just give it one more shot.” Like-

Josey: You go in so optimistic. 

Kate: Yeah. Thirty-one flavors of burnout. That'll- that's the next t shirt. 

Matt: Yeah. You're like, “Maybe I'll like Rocky Road.” Like, no. This was a mistake. 

Kate: The road was far too rocky.

Matt: Eventually, you get to rum raisin, you're like, “This was obviously a mistake. I knew it from the start.”

Kate: It's my only option left. Oh my god.

Matt: Oh my gosh, I hope not. But it's true. It's true. And it's, like, in different- Josey, to your point, like, in different parts of your career, burnout looks similar, but very different. It's like the strangest thing.

So, like, I started off as an associate billing. I think my billable hour requirement was like twenty-four hundred... It was two hundred a month, I guess is what it was. And it was more volume work, right? So it's like, “Bill, bill, bill.” 

I think it was also, like, pre-social media. I mean, social media existed, but like, people weren't talking like how we all talk, right? So I, you know, I'm- I'm working. I'm not really talking to anyone about how- my frustrations with practice or my frustrations at the time. And I'm a newer associate, so I feel like I'm so low in the totem pole, and I'm doing true, like, it's, I think Alex Su calls it shit work. I’m doing shit work, right? You're doing as much doc review as you can possibly do, I’m building binders, right? You're doing, like, the classic, like, hallmarks of the associate life. And you just get tired. You get burnt out on the cases, right, especially the cases when you're a litigator.

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: It's- it's still- it's high stress. There's deadlines that are- especially for your federal court- that are like, if you don't hit that deadline you’ve got a problem, right? I, you know, I started to burn out, and I was so fried. And then I ended up going, in-house.

Kate: Mhmm.

Matt: When I was in-house, it was awesome. No billables, which was a huge factor in burnout. I was doing work that was super interesting. I didn't have a partner anymore as a CEO, and it was, it was a great experience, but then I burnt out again. I had deal fatigue because there's all these deals. Things were moving fast.

And then you start- It- it looked different because now I was getting burnt out because I was so stretched thin in different directions, as opposed to being litigation, adversarial, burnout because I'm- I'm doing the same doc review, I'm, I'm constantly getting yelled at. This was different because I'm, I'm doing employment law. I'm, like, “I know I'm burned out, but this doesn't look like my last burnout.” Right? You're like, this is this is the other flavor.

Kate: Yeah. And especially when you're in a more supportive environment, you're like, why am I burned out here? Like, I have it so much easier. I don’t understand.

Matt: I’ve got friends here!

Kate: Yeah! Like, I love the people I work with. What's what's going on? Why…?

Matt: That's exactly right. Like, I'm gonna- I could take vacation. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: I could take vacation. That was the thing. But you take vacation and, like, you realize- And this is just, like, this is where the, like, the same on all of the burnouts… I was still on. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Matt: I couldn't shut it off. Right? I remember just, like, looking at my phone and seeing an email and letting out, like, the biggest sigh. Like, why the fuck am I sighing? I'm not working right now, but I was still working, right? 

Kate: Mmhmm. 

Matt: And you're like, what the fuck?

Josey: Mhmm. 

Matt: So it was very frustrating.  I don’t know if we’re okay to curse here. 

Kate: Oh, oh, fuck yeah. We-

Josey: Oh, yeah.

Kate: We curse, we drink- 

Josey: I-

Kate: Yeah, we're pirates, basically.

Matt: Okay great. (In pirate voice.) Arr! (Kate and Josey laugh.) You know, I’m gonna get like a peg leg. Right? That was my eye patch. Do I have a parrot somewhere around here?

Josey: Damn it. I left it. 

Kate: I knew there was gonna be a clip of Matt almost making me, like, snort something out of my nose. I knew that that was gonna happen at some point if I dared to take a sip.

Josey: At least it’s out and not in.

Matt: It's the- it's- we're still we're still young in the podcast. That can still happen, right? So-

Josey: Yeah.

Matt: But that was something that, like, it reminded me of my original burnout, but again, it was so different. 

Kate: Yeah.

Matt: And then I- I- And at various times, I had these, like, maybe a smaller level of burnout. I worked for the government, and that was a little, you know, it kind of fried me there. And it's the weirdest thing. And then you talk to people finally, because we have social media. And someone can relate to each burnout. You can start to relate to people on it, which is, is a very interesting thing. But it's, it's something else.

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: It's certainly something else. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Kate: I was gonna ask about your government burnout because -- 

Matt: Sure.

Josey: -- we've talked to a few different people just about either law form law firm or, corporate. 

Matt: Sure.

Josey: We haven't gotten into what in government can burn you out. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Josey: Usually, people see that as kind of a better balance. So I'm interested to know kind of what your- your take on this. 

Matt: Absolutely. I will give you my government experience and then what I've seen from other folks that are in government. So when I worked in government, I worked in an agency, I worked in the state for, one of the, like, various, like, departments. And I loved the people I worked with, I had a great boss. I had- I had tools. I had, like, an actual, like, I had legal tech. I- I even have time, which is for me. I was like, what is this? 

Kate: I'm shocked that you had legal tech in government quite frankly. 

Josey: Right?

Kate: That's already surprising.

Matt: We all had standing desks. I was like, this is-

Josey: What?! This is shocking.

Matt: I know, right?

Kate: This is highly shocking.

Matt: I know. And I remember where my burnout came there… In government, it's you volunteer to do something, which I think- I highly recommend if you're your attorney, you always volunteer to do these projects. I makes you, you know, more well rounded. And I was like, yeah, I'll do it. So I ended up doing, like, this large project. And the thing about government, if you take, if you take over responsibility, you took the responsibility, like it’s yours. 

I had mentorship, don't get me wrong, but, like, no one has time to do a lot of things. Like, you gotta get things done. You're working on the taxpayers’ dollar. So it's like, I just- I'm doing this for the people, right? You have to think about it like that. Like, I got fried over it because I was doing all of this work, kind of by myself. And it was, it was it was rough. It was certainly rough.

 And also in government, you- you don't get, I guess, the respect that other attorneys get as well. And that kind of weighs on you too, and that kind of leads to the burnout, which is interesting. So, like, you tell someone you're a government attorney, even and outside of just agencies. You could say you're an attorney, like, a PD or, you know, like, a state attorney, or a DA, and people kind of look at you funny. They're like, “Oh, it's a government attorney.” Like, “Oh, did you not get a firm job?”

Kate: Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like nonprofit. That that's funny you bring that up too.

Matt: Yes!

Kate: That like, feeling of of- Except when you're a nonprofit attorney, I feel like you get a little bit of a, like, “Oh, you have a heart.” Like, government, you don't get that assumption necessarily. We've talked a lot about this lately, is the external validation piece of law and how much law is structured to make you chase that and how many people are drawn to law who really seek that and are like, “I'm a hard worker. Tell me I'm a hard worker!” You know, “Tell me what- tell me how special I am. Tell me how like smart I am, please, please, please!” (Josey laughs.) You know? And that when you stop getting that, that- that can even start burning you out. 

Matt: It does. 

Kate: You're like, why am I operating for that purpose anyway? Like, I should be doing work that I wanna do because I wanna do the work.

Matt: That's exactly right. Like, it's- They drill it into your head that, like, it is a prestigious, prestigious, job. And, like, you're working and you're right, you're like, you're like, I'm getting looked at as like a second class attorney. Like, you're like, oh, it's the government attorney, right? I always hear that for my friends that are PDs too. Like, people will be like, “Oh, I want, like-” someone will be like, “I want a real attorney.” Like, “real attorney”?! Like, what? Like, most of these PDs are better attorneys than I am, like, ninety percent of them probably. 

Kate: They're overworked. But–

Matt: Yeah. 

Kate: – that's not their fault. 

Josey: Well yeah, they’re going through so many more cases. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: You’ve got this huge docket that you're managing. Again, you're not getting necessarily the respect that you should be getting. You're not getting the pay, the same with me- Like, you're not, you are not getting the pay, and you're working around the clock. And that kind of thing- Also what you're seeing, especially in that environment, people burn out like that because of it. So it's almost like a combination of, like, the issues that I was dealing with, plus the litigation issues that I see--

Kate: Yep. 

Matt: –quite often, mixed together with this whole other, like, truly emotional, mental aspect of the of the job because of what you're seeing and what you're handling. And seeing the justice system turn ever so slowly.

Kate: Yep. 

Matt: And, and sometimes in the wrong direction. 

Kate: Often in the wro- I would say “often” more than “sometimes” in the wrong direction. 

Josey: Yeah.

Matt: I would say so as well. And that- I a lot of my friends burnt out. Like, that's when I… In- in the agencies, I used to see a lot of folks over in the PD's office come over, and say the same thing.

Going from job to job, it's not gonna, it's not gonna stop your burnout. It may, it maybe like delayed it, but you're just adding another flavor of ice cream to the kitchen sink that you've created. 

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because for me, leaving my job did stop the burnout, but I left… I left the practice of law. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Kate: And- and so I didn't try to bounce to a different area of practice or anything. I just was like, “You know what? I never really wanted to be an attorney in the first place, I'm out.” And got very lucky that I was able to do that and and land in tech, but that's the only reason I think that it worked for me. I think if I had gone somewhere else, I probably would have just burned out in a different way like you said. 

And I would love to hear from you kind of- I know you mentioned that it it looked different for you each time. What what were the symptoms for you for your burnout? What were you noticing in yourself that you started saying, “Oh, I'm burning out,” and was it different at each time?

Matt: Oh, absolutely. So I am excited as a human being. I think naturally, I'm like, I think someone once described me… I've been described as a number of, like, small animals, like, chipmunk…

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Josey: I literally thought that the first time I met you, Matt, I was like, “This guy is so energetic. This is amazing.”

Matt: … Hamster. 

Kate: Golden retriever. 

Josey: Golden retriever is...

Matt: I was called a chihuahua once in court. Because I- I bark.

Josey: That's interesting. 

Matt: Yeah, I bark. So that being said, like jokes aside, I'm very excited. I'm excited to do the work that I'm doing. Like, that's why I do it. I'm excited to work with coworkers, work with the team, and, and- Whatever we're doing, right? And I noticed for a lot of these jobs at least a similarity across the board was like, I stopped being excited. I was literally like, “I can't do this.” I don't…

I, like, I couldn't even get myself to do the task, as opposed to going on autopilot, and that was a- it was like a progression.

Kate: Yeah.

Matt: Like, it was autopilot to, like…

Kate: Shut down.

Matt: I'm not… I just can't do it. I just can't do it. I can't even… Every day I look at this is another, like… just, like, hammer to the head. Like, I just couldn't keep going. That was a symptom that happened every time. And it was kind of in that same vein, like, going to the office, I was excited, or, or even logging on and, like, doing, you know, Zoom meetings with friends, like… Well I call them friends. Coworkers, right? Both.

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: And I would get into an office or Zoom, and I'm like, “I kind of don't want to be here.” And every day I keep coming into this office and doing this thing. Again, it's like a hammer to the head, I just can't keep doing it. And those symptoms kept going to the point where it's almost like job paralysis where you're, you're looking at everything you have to do and it keeps piling on. It doesn't stop, right? The job doesn't stop for anybody. And you sit there and you're like, “I don't know what to do.”

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: I- I literally can't be here. And it- it adds a layer of depression to it because you're like, I'm, now I'm also depressed. I'm depressed, obviously, because of the burnout, but I'm now even further depressed because I'm, like, I'm stuck in a hole.

Kate: Yeah.

Matt: I felt, you know, you're, like, you're really- And that- that's a symptom I felt in all these roles. I'm stuck in a hole, and it's a brutal feeling. And you just keep digging, you know, you keep sinking into this hole. And again, because of the law, the work keeps building, the hole gets bigger, and you have to make a move. And I have a lot of friends that, like, Kate, to your point, like, they're like, “I'm- I'm just gonna leave the law.” Like, I gotta get out of the hole, and the only way I can get out of the hole is literally to dig through it that way into a completely different area, completely different place.

Some folks I know were, like, would just hop into a different hole. Literally just go into the- it's fine. This hole is a little bit more shallow. 

Kate: Yeah.

Matt: And I did that almost until the end, obviously, not the end, until Lawtrades where now, I'm in a completely different area. But, that was a symptom… Those symptoms were very common across all those jobs. 

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. We have landscapers coming, and they're supposed to be here at four, and they're here at three. They've come early every time I have rescheduled them. So I'm gonna go tell him really quickly to come back at four, please. 

Matt: I live right next to, like, NCCI, which is a, It's like an insurance company? Or a-

Josey: Yeah. 

Matt: And they- and they're constantly either jackhammering their pavement or they have landscapers.

Josey: That's the fucking worst. 

Matt: Dude, it’s the worst. If you listen to my TikToks, you can hear, like, you know, like, landscapers or, like, jackhammering, like-

Kate: Hello.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: I know there is also a, like, industrial jackhammer outside, but it's down the street. So hopefully that's…

Josey: Mine is always a leaf blower. They come- I swear to god it's every time I have an important meeting of some sort or something that's, you know, I need to have clear audio for. And it is the loudest leaf blower I've ever heard in my goddamn life. (Kate laughs) And I'm just talking and all of a sudden it's just this overwhelming noise that they're like, something is something happening with there? I'm like…

Kate: Are you okay? 

Josey: Yeah. 

Matt: I- I was doing a TikTok. It was, like, maybe, like, a minute and a half TikTok, and I was, like, a straight through, like, all one take, like, let's go. And I film it, and I'm like, all excited about it, like, It was perfect. It was literally perfect, I’m like, “There’s no noise. I did it!” And then I listen through and I hear in the background- I'm- I live in South Florida- I hear… (Imitates seagull calling. Josey and Kate laugh.) And I'm like, I- I gotta go through CapCut is cap cut as many times as I can to, like, you know, to, like, blur whatever sound it is. And then you could vaguely hear, like (Imitates seagull calling more distantly.) And I'm like, fuck it, we're going live. I stopped- I just, like, stopped caring in that regard because I was, like, it's never gonna be perfect. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: Kinda like my career. Right? It's never gonna be perfect. But it's close enough and close enough is great. 

Kate: Yes. Absolutely. 

Okay. So I'm sorry. I think we were talking about symptoms of burnout and freezing. Yeah. 

That- the same thing happened to me. Like, I- I and that was my big red flag was A) I started getting frustrated when my clients were calling me. And that I did not like because I… I- I did a little stint at the public defender's office before, and I remember seeing some folks there… I mean, that- everybody who worked there was great and they really cared, but I could see the folks who had been there a while who were, like, so cynical about their clients, you know? 

Matt: Yeah.

Kate: And I- I was just, I never wanna be that, and I started getting there. And that was my big red flag, but the other one was something that had never happened to me before, which was where I would just sit down, and I would just stare at my computer–

Matt: Couldn’t do anything?

Kate: --and just not be productive. And that was not my MO at all. I was usually the one really cranking out work, and it just, like, that freaked me out. And Josey, you had a similar thing…

Josey:  Yeah. I had the same thing. I remember- And it kinda goes back to what we discussed at the beginning where it's this external validation for being such a hard worker. Like, I'm not ashamed to admit, that's- that was everything to me. You know, anytime someone- You could not give me a better compliment than, “You’re a hard worker,” or “You finished, you know, editing this brief faster than anyone else.” That was like, my week was made. I'm done. 

Kate: Yes, yep. 

Matt: Yep.

Josey: It was great. So when this started happening to me and I was burning out, and I- I could not get through things. I was missing things as well, and that was… The times that I turned in something that was- I'd missed a couple, like, very blatant mistakes, I never would have missed before. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: But I did. And it was crushing because it's like, if I'm not able to work hard and to be, you know, on top of my game when it comes to working hard and being a good employee, then what am I? It was a kind of crisis that I had personally. Those things were even further debilitating because I would sit there and I'm like terrified that I can't start, terrified that I would miss something, and I would just… You just sink into this hole of, yeah, depression. You can't sleep at night because you're worried. You then have pissed off the partner or whomever, you know, at that point because they have very low tolerance oftentimes. And so then you're constantly worried about–

Matt: Oh yeah.

Josey: -- like, what are they gonna say to me when I log on in the morning? All these things pile up, and I that was the source of, I think, my last law burnout.

Matt: I feel that. There's deadlines. Like, I remember I would wake up, and I make this joke on the internet. I love making jokes about burnout. I love making jokes about the law in this regard because it's like, You read it and you, like, laugh-cry.

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: And- and- and then it makes you realize you're like, this is not okay. Right? Like, that's how- that's the best part of those jokes.

And, like, our there's one joke I love making where it's effectively like waking up at three o'clock in the morning, looking to see if you missed a deadline, but you're not a litigator anymore.

Josey: Yeah.

Matt: And it still happens. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Matt: So I was made-

Josey: No, I -- 

Matt: Right? 

Josey: -- I think it was, like, three months of being in a new position with- And I've always done litigation. I would wake up in the middle of night, and I'm like, “I know this attorney’s texted me.”

Matt: What’d I miss?

Josey: “I've definitely missed a deadline. Did I docket this properly?” All of these things. It- I couldn't sleep for quite a while after quitting my job.

Matt: All the time.

Kate: I could not be happier that I never litigated. I always knew I didn't want too. And I never did. 

Josey: It's the best and the worst.

Kate: And it was lovely.

Matt: It's true. And and you would have these, like, CMO, these case management orders, and they would have all the dates delineate in it. I'd wake up, and then I'd look- I remember I would look at, like, a CMO, and it would say, like, “Date: December, x, y, and z,” and at that time, it'd be July. And I'm like, and- and I'm like, “Okay, it's fine. It's already three o'clock in the morning.” But then it just kept happening, but it would be the same date. And that was an aspect that was unique to litigation, was the, right? The, the fast pace, deadline-driven…

Josey: Changes.

Matt: Yes. When you're already in burnout and you cannot confront the tasks that you have on your plate, that becomes really scary. Those deadlines become even scarier. And I just couldn't- And sure I could, if I really honestly wanted to, I could sit down on a Saturday and, and just, like, crank out, my, my exhibit list, my- my witness was, whatever it is, but I couldn't.

Josey: You could barely get through the work day. 

Kate: No. You're frozen. 

Josey: You know, a week work day, let alone. 

Matt: Let alone go above and beyond.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: All the time. 

Kate: Oh, and the procrastination -- 

Matt: Yes. 

Kate: -- gets- And I'm a little bit of a procrastinator anyway by nature, but- until I absolutely have to do something, but it got- got way worse. For me, it was, I was dealing with landlords, I was doing pre-eviction work. I would put off having to, you know, email a landlord for forever, then I'd finally do it. And then you have the moment where you think to yourself, okay, this person isn't gonna get back. They've been so unresponsive. This is-

Matt: “Please don't get back to me yet.” It's so true. 

Kate: The worst thing that they could do.

Matt: And it's just- And that mentality, it's… This is what I've- it irks me about bad bosses. Like, this is such a hallmark of our profession is these partners or these management level professionals do not see these symptoms.

Josey: No.

Matt: And we make- Or we've, we could voice it. You could voice these concerns. They're- One, the partner may not be able to handle it. Two, the partner may not know what to do, right? Like, “I don't even know.”

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: “I have so much work right now, I don't know what to tell you, like, it needs to get done.” And it's a disservice to everybody. It's a disservice to yourself. It's a disservice to the client, especially. And I've- I've heard horror stories of people, like, “I cannot continue doing this work,” and things fall to the wayside and now you have a malpractice case, or now you have- I mean… A lot of things in law, luckily, can be undone, especially on the civil side, but, like, some things can’t. 

It drives me nuts that, like, you see this in across the industry of, like, a recognition that burnout’s real, but then these managers that don't know what to do with it.

Josey: Yeah. And I think too, they’re a product of their, you know, the time they came up in and kind of how they've been practicing. They've also- they didn't have, you know, anyone to hold their hand or say, “Okay, well, you're burning out.” Other alternatives probably weren't as readily available or, you know, as easy to access as they are now. And they kind of take on this mentality of, like, “I'm really fucking busy. Why are you bothering me with your sob story? Like, get get your shit together just like I had to.”

Matt: Yep.

Josey: I get it, I get where it's coming from, but it doesn't make it right, nor does it solve anything. It just makes the problem worse.

Matt: Exactly. You just lose an associate.

Kate: Yeah. And I it's interesting because… This jackhammer is now, like, my computer is vibrating. Like, I don't know what they're doing. They keep coming along the street. (Kate laughs.) So I hope it's not super loud in the background, but…

I was on your your AMA with Alex Su. I feel like Alex is like the Tom Hanks of the legal tech industry. Like, everybody loves him. No one has a bad thing to say about him. He's just like a national treasure. But you were both talking about the sort of attitude in firms and in Biglaw that- that leads to burnout, and that's gonna have to adjust for the next generation of attorneys, because millennials like us are already recognizing it and saying we don't wanna deal with it anymore, and Gen Z is certainly not putting up with anything that does not serve them, which–

Matt: Good.

Kate: --good for them. I love Gen Z. And, you know, people are gonna have to figure this out because this attitude is not gonna fly. You're- you're not gonna be able to keep hiring… the next generation of attorneys.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, we're- we're- we're already seeing we're already seeing in the market. Like, we have a lot of… It's funny, you have this, like, labor shortage in a lot of different parts of law. And there needs to be an understanding, like, of operations and how to fix operations, because you’re right, a Gen Z, attorney or a millennial attorney that's already burned out probably is gonna be like, “I'm not doing this. And I can't do this.” Things need to change in that regard or else it's just you're not gonna have attorneys that are gonna wanna work for you at all.

Kate; No. No. And I mean, like, back to the Lewis Bris… that whole thing, you know, that that stuff, that old school, you know, let's joke around and…

Matt: Good old boys.. 

Kate: Yep. Yep. Be crass and call judges “sugar tits” for god's sake. 

Josey: Just the fucking disrespect.

Matt: So bad. The whole thing was so-- 

Kate: I mean, never- It should never have been a thing that anyone was tolerating, but it's definitely not gonna be tolerated anymore, nor should it be.

Matt: Nope. Agreed. Agreed, agreed.

Kate: So I would love to hear, you know, obviously, as you've said this- this- burnout followed you from job to job. And now it seems like you've landed somewhere that you're- you're happy, and you're still practicing to a degree, right?

Matt: Yeah.

Kate: I would love to hear sort of what changed for you or what clicked eventually, that helped you kind of get out of the burnout cycle. If you feel that you have, I guess. 

Matt: Yes. No, I think I have.

Going into this kind of field, I- it kind of like what you guys did. Like, I I'll say I completely left the law, but I definitely left the traditional path of law. I made a joke about it the other day where it was, like, the best way to practice law is to not have to practice law. I think that's what it is, right? 

And what I meant by is, like, the best way to- the best experience is when you're not, like, it's not your day job. Like, when you don't, when you're not required to practice law. That's why I’m so envious of some folks that, like, do- That have the ability to do pro bono work. That work when you when you're helping somebody when you're actually doing, like, really great things for people, and, and you're not- This isn't paying the bills. This is just something you're doing. It must be awesome. 

So one day I would be in that situation, but I understand it now where I'm like, me personally, I can't do the traditional model. I cannot do the associate-to-partner. And I, I probably can go in-house depending on certain factors, but I can't do the way I thought I could have done. And going into this role where it's much more fluid allowed me to be a bit more creative and allowed me to kind of control my schedule a little bit better, and not be on my partner's time or be on the client's time quite like it was as an attorney. 

Josey: And you're always tied to the court schedule. Always. 

Matt: Always. 

Kate: Oh yeah.

Matt: it doesn't matter. If you've got a trial coming up, it doesn't matter what your week plans look like. 

Josey: It doesn't matter what your holiday plans are. Your travel plans for Thanksgiving are cut. Like, that's it. You're-

Matt: Get- get to the trial blinders and away, everybody. For a lot of people that doesn't make a lot of sense or they don't have that opportunity. So I can't be like, “This is what you should do in all the cases of burnout.”

But for me personally, I walked into a scenario where it kind of got rid of burnout. I guess if I was to give at least somebody advice, seeing it now, it it's a two-pronged approach, like internal and external. External is being in a situation where you can control the internal. Like, that's really how I look at things, and that's where I would advise somebody. 

You could be in a situation, a firm, an office, or whatever, where you have some control over your life where you can change internal aspects of yourself where you're not constantly on, or at least you're not on to the degree that most people really are as an attorney. Where you can you have legitimate boundaries that you can actually have. Like, you could, like, you could really be like, “Okay, I will do this, I will do this, I will do this. And I have the support to do all these other things, so I don't have to think about this.” Things of that nature, it will assist with burnout. It will help with with that. 

The other aspect of it as well is, like, again, external to internal: Having an environment where you can talk about your problems, where you could talk to your management, where you could talk to your coworkers. I mean also, getting a therapist is fantastic. Like, I've talked to therapists plenty of times.

Kate: Yes. 

Matt: And- and it really can assist and burnout because a lot- Also for attorneys, like, I love just bottling it- bottling it up, like, like, the worst, you know, bottle of Coca Cola you've ever seen and then blowing my top, yeah, and freaking out.

Josey: Like when you put the Mento in. 

Kate: Just shake it up. Yeah. No. I was saying that on the first episode, I was like, I'm terrible at leaning on people. I-  That didn't work for me anymore real fast when I was burned out. Like, I just couldn't do that anymore and I started to see a therapist and I started to at- affirmatively reach out to my friends more and start talking about things. Because it always- and I knew this was stupid- but it always made me feel weak to be like, “I can't handle my work.”

Matt: Yeah, it's another aspect of the practice. 

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And and it got to a point where I was like, well, I have to face it because I can't handle it, obviously. I'm not handling it. So something's gotta give. But- and not everyone has the luxury of of switching careers, like you said. So I do think it's important too, the the boundary aspect that you brought up, because I- I think that the other thing is, you know, a lot of high perormers go into the legal field in- in every position in legal field. And when you're used to doing that, you just wanna say yes to everything–

Matt: Yep.

Kate: --and especially when you're new. And there's an expectation that's passed around that it's like, you're gonna work really hard. You're gonna be working these crazy hours, and you better take that on. 

Josey: Prove yourself.

Kate: And saying no does not feel good. And and that pressure is even more so for anyone who's not, you know, a white guy.

Matt: Sure.

Kate: Everybody who is further and further away from that identity has more and more pressure to stay late and over perform -- 

Matt: It’s true. 

Kate: -- as well. So you kind of the personality that you go into legal with tends to lend itself to over taxing yourself. 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Josey: Absolutely. To the point of not getting out of law and figuring out how to kind of have that balance or pro bono work: When I got out of traditional law, and I was a paralegal, not an attorney, so it's different. But I remember because I actually loved law so much and studying it, being in it was something… And I don't- it's definitely not something I've lost by any means. So I knew that I had to find a way to still incorporate it into my life, even though I wouldn't be in traditional legal. And I had done pro bono work at the firms that I'd been at, but when it's pro bono work that is required for the job in conjunction with the billables. 

Matt: It's no different. Right? 

Josey: It’s not different. You can care about it, but it's not going to feel different as far as the work demand. So when I did get out of it, I knew the kind of identity crisis that I was having as far as not being a paralegal anymore would be so much worse if I didn't do something within that realm on my free time. So I started volunteering as a paralegal for different -- 

Matt: That's cool. 

Josey: -- things and nonprofits and stuff. And so, you know, I've been able to stay in it to some degree, but I control those hours. I control what I give to it. I know I've had this- this issue where I'm like, what I've chosen is not as respectable as being a practicing, you know, paralegal or practicing attorney for my-

Kate: Put big quotations around that, “respectable.” You know.

Matt: Yeah. I post memes on the internet all day. 

Josey: Yeah.

Matt: You don’t have to talk to me about respectable. That's quite alright.

Josey: It's something, like, the identity it was part of the identity crisis that I had, but it when it came down to it, it was, like, is your job worth burning yourself out so that you can't perform and be good at what you like?

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: And it wasn't. So it- there's so many avenues to get out of it, but I think to your point, and this is something that I talked to my therapist about, and she recommended that I volunteer as paralegal… It is what has made it easier for me to transition out of it and still feel like I'm doing nothing that I cared about. 

Matt: Exactly. I respect that completely, and that's great when you don't have these kinds of external restraints that we all had dealt with. And it makes the practice of law, right? You go to law school, or we go to peer legal school, we go to another trade school, and you learn about the theory. Everything's in theory, and everything is, like, these cases from, like--

Kate: Oh my god.

Matt: The Fox and the Hound case or whatever, like, the Whale Case, The Barrel- I mean, they all have a fun namesl like the Barrel Case. Like, these like stupid eighteen hundreds, nonsensical… Res ipsa loquitor. And you're like- you, like, throw a cane at somebody. I'm like, that's, that's how you say that. And those things were super interesting and fascinating.

And- and when you hadn't aspirations to work in law, that's what you, that's what you saw, that's what you wanted to do. And then you go into the law and it becomes the practical aspects of law, the business of law. And it completely changes your view of it, and then you eventually burn out in the rat race that is the practice of law and the business of law. And you forget about those things. And to be able to do the law like we went to school to do… It's awesome. I love it. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: Yeah. And I came at it from a completely different side, which was I always knew I wanted to just do public interest. I was like, I'm not going to a firm, I'm not doing any of that. What I wanna do is public interest.

I had a different type of guilt when I was leaving that work because I was like, it's already understaffed. I'm leaving. I'm not helping people all day every day anymore. Who am I if I'm not doing that? And am I a terrible person–

Matt: Noooooo.

Kate: -- if I choose to go to a job that is at a for-profit company and not do this work anymore? And am I, you know, abandoning people who need my help? And it's like, someone's already- someone is always gonna step in to your role.

Matt: Yeah.

Kate: There are plenty of public interest attorneys that are looking for work. But it's a really tough thing when you feel like you- you're like, oh, I just couldn't… And especially the people that I was working with had these really horrendous circumstances, and I'm like, “Oh, I can't hack it, but it's not a third of what they're going through.” And there's another level of guilt there walking away from that.

Josey: Such a dangerous game to play. 

Matt: Yeah, I wouldn't-

Kate: It is. And it's not healthy and you can't do it. And- and eventually I had to come to the same conclusion kind of what Josey said, which is like, “Am I even doing this to the best of my ability? Am I being the best person for them to come to for help now? Because I'm burned out and I'm freezing all the time.” And you're just not. And they deserve a person who is not in that state of mind to help them. But it’s tough. It sucks.

Matt: I get it. I get it. Well, I'm glad I'm glad everyone here is either working under burnout or out of their burnout phase. I- I certainly am, and… I hate to wrap things up, guys, but I gotta feed my kid. But-

Kate: No. That's okay.

Josey: Absolutely not. 

Kate: We're here for the we're here for the dad duty, you know that. 

Josey: Oh, yeah.

Matt: That's me all day. 

Josey: Oh, yeah. We support it. 

Kate: Yeah. Appreciate you coming on and sharing your story because I just think that it's important for people to hear other people, especially successful people and- and people who are, you know, living their best lives.

Matt: “Successful.” Stooooop. I'm just some guy in a little home office in a hoodie all day. 

Josey: Out there killin’ it.

Kate: Please. You know, it always was comforting to me when I burned out to hear other people's stories and and just know, because you do, you feel- Like you said, like you're in a hole and you feel like you're in that hole by yourself. 

Matt: Yep. 

Kate: And no one else is in the hole with you.

Matt: Exactly right.

Josey: Yeah, I didn't know any burnout stories when I burnt out and got out. So I love that we're we know we're putting stories out there that hopefully people will listen to and then it'll make them feel a little less alone in the burnout journey.

Matt: I hope so too. It was it was, it was not fun when I did it. And, you know, it was the multiple times I burned out. And I, to your point, like, if someone else listens to this, that's the great- That's, that's my one takeaway for everyone listening. If you're listening to this, and you understand by listening to this, wait, maybe I am actually in burnout, and I need to consider either jumping to a different hole if that's a temporary fix or getting out completely, or maybe you have the ability to go into a different legal environment completely that's better for you that you can control those external factors, that you can control your own internal factors, that's the best takeaway.

Kate: Set up some boundaries. That can be hard too, and people can be afraid to do it. I was at the job that was burning me out. But when I did, it did- it did help to a degree. I did it too late. Those were boundaries that I could have set up from day one, and I just didn't because I didn't feel comfortable doing it. I was new, and I didn't want to. 

Matt: You gotta be in- That's the thing. You gotta be in an environment, again, you’ve gotta be in an environment where it makes sense, because then you could finally do that. Because otherwise, someone's gonna be like, “What are you doing? Like, what are you doing? Like, you can't do that. That's not what the job is. That's not why I hired you.” So I'm there. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Matt: But I appreciate it guys, it was a lot of fun.

Kate: Yes, absolutely. 

Josey: Have great dinner. 

Kate: Thank you so much.

Outtro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.