Josey: I can't drink during this, can I? Can we stop? 

Kate: Yeah, you can drink. Why are you- why can't you drink?

Josey: Can I drink? Okay. Cool. 

Kate: I'm gonna drink. Let's-

Josey: Oh, thank god. Maybe we should do that at the beginning to make it less-

Kate: This is the beginning.

(Kate laughs.)

Josey: Oh, yeah, we're still recording. Alright. Alright. Here we go.

Introduction
Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate; And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to the Legal Burnouts.

Episode One
Kate: Honey, honey?

Josey: Yes, darling? 

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

Josey: Sure.

Kate: Well, good because we're doing one. So that's good news. 

Josey: Cheers to that. 

Kate: Cheers. Indeed. We are having some- some whiskey for our inaugural podcast here.

Josey: Yep. It's for the nerves mostly, but also because we like whiskey.

Kate: I know, I am weirdly nervous, which is- 

Josey: I know. And it's weird for you because you're used to being on camera and the actress and everything, and I am a little gremlin in my computer.

Kate: Yeah but when you're acting, you're not being judged on yourself. People used to actually say this to me in law school all the time when I was like really nervous in trial advocacy or when I was saying that I didn't wanna go into a courtroom which I'll get into later.

And people were like, "But you're an actress, like, aren't you used to speaking in front of people?" And I was like, "Yeah, but it's not my thoughts or my ideas that are coming out of my mouth when you're acting." 

Josey: Oh, yeah. That's fair.

Kate: And I'm not being myself when I'm acting. But anyway, let's- let's get into it. We thought that this first episode would be good to just kind of let people get to know us and our dynamic and our own stories with burnout, which will kind of explain why we decided to do this podcast about burnout in the legal industry because we both experienced it ourselves and then also know a ton of other people and have seen it run rampant. So let's get- let's get into it.

Let's get into- to us. Right? Let's talk about ourselves. 

Josey: Let's do it.

Kate: We met at a work event and we -- 

Josey: Mhmm.

Kate: -- did not speak right away, but once we started talking, we didn't stop. 

Josey: We didn't shut up. 

Kate: Yeah. We didn't we didn't stop. We -- 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: -- latched on to one another very hard, and we just knew. 

Josey: We also have a playlist together, which I feel like speaks volumes.

Kate: That's true. We might as well be married. 

Josey: Pun intended.

Kate: Yeah. Damn it. That's good. 

Josey: I know.

Kate: Yeah. We do with it. It was, like, the next day, but we like, after we left Atlanta, that we made a shared playlist on Spotify, which is- I don't know if they even have a shared playlist with my husband.

Josey: He was like, "Are you going to run away with Josey? And you were like -- 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: -- probably. 

Kate: We have this penchant for talking about, like, social justice issues and that's... that's our vibe. And also realized that we'd both been in the legal industry before and were burnt out on it.

Josey: Yeah. That's the reason we were there and in that job. 

Kate: Yeah. We were escaping the traditional legal industry.

We also have discovered, sort of like we say in our intro, that I went into the law kind of just like stumbled into it, not really being in love with the law. I wasn't like, I- I mean, the law is important, obviously, but I sort of didn't have this ideal about the law.

And so I have a lot of strong feelings about the law and a lot of the bullshit around it. And you really love the law, which I think is interesting. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: I would love to hear a little more about what you love about it.

Josey: Oh, that's a loaded question. I mean, I think I've always kind of been into it more than I realized. I thought for a long time that my interest was more on political side of it. 

Kate: Mhmm.

Josey: But if I look back, it- I always was inclined towards the legal side of it. Shockingly- as I know no lawyer is like this, or any legal professional- I love rules. (Kate laughs.) I do. I love them. Govern my whole life. I love that you can apply it to a situation and come up with a solution or an argument or, you know, any number of things.

That was the first thing that as a very young person with very limited knowledge about it that I liked. And it's what informed, you know, my decision to start studying it at nineteen, I think, is when I initially started to get into it and read- I was reading international law books at that point. All of these very nerdy things that I could get into, that's kinda when it began was at nineteen.

And then I was really lucky to take to undergraduate law courses from an international lawyer. And shockingly, they were my best grades I ever got.

Kate: That's awesome. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: International law was not my strong suit. I did take- but I did take it in law school and I wasn't... I mean, I was interested, but I wasn't like... 

Josey: Yeah. I- I don't know what clicked for me with international law, but I loved it. And as soon as I started reading the books, and studying it was just hooked. 

Kate: That's awesome. See, this is what I love about the fact that we haven't talked that much is I have no idea about your story. Like, the times that we have talked, we just shoot the shit about... everything.

Josey: We really do. And it- it- it more is like a current topic that we're very about and we're like, we need to talk about how awful this is or something. It's never like, "Tell me about yourself."

Kate: No. We just don't- like, we've dropped vague things about each other. But we don't actually know each other that well yet. So we're gonna get to know each other and maybe end up hating each other. Who knows?

Josey: It could be. 

Kate: This podcast could see the complete...

Josey: ... demise of our relationship. 

Kate: Mhmm. That's that's so interesting to me that you're saying, like, you love rules. And I do too I was always a rule follower as a younger person. I was always good at school, I didn't break my curfew, like, all of that stuff. I snuck out once or twice.

Josey: I asked for permission to sneak out. I told my mother I was going to sneak out before I snuck out. (Kate laughs.) Riddle me that.

Kate: Wow. Yeah. You were next level. I- and when I snuck out, it was like, I went to a friend's house and did absolutely nothing scandalous. (Josey laughs.) Like, it was never- I didn't drink, nothing like that. Like, I was very square. 

But when you said that about the law, I was like, I think my favorite parts of the law are always when people are using it to break the established rules or to challenge the established rules, which is hard in the law. It's one of the things --

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: -- that's shitty about it. It's slow to change. But I do love that, like, rebellious aspect of the law. I think there are a lot of rebel lawyers that I really like.

Josey: And I think... I- I agree and kind of identify with that, but I also kinda have, like, I loved the law and the rules because I felt like what was there already could be used to change and could be used for better.

So I felt like there was really good stuff already there and that it was just a matter of people using it in the right way to actually affect change. 

Kate: Yeah. And I think that is that's right. That's the key -- 

Josey: Mhmm.

Kate: -- because of the way the law works. Like, it just has to build on itself. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: Generally speaking, it's not gonna be a whole hog overhaul of anything.

You have to take what's already happened-- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- and get creative with it to a degree sometimes, which is an interesting challenge. So since you were already starting to talk about your story, I would just love for you to- to go more into how you really came into being a paralegal and then what burned you out.

Josey: Yeah. So college, I'm getting into- I'm getting into law. I take a couple classes, I do well, which was shocking to me.

And I remember I took comparative law and then I took international law. I remember international law is where we started doing IRAC.

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: And I was like, "This is my shit." (Kate laughs.) I instantly was like, "This is it. This is what Josey is going to do forever." 

Kate: That's hilarious to me--

Josey: Is IRAC.

Kate: -- because I hate- I am not an outliner at all. 

(Josey laughs)

Like, I am much I'm a much more, like, creative writing person. Right? So I'm, like, I just start writing and I find my way through it, and then I go back and I edit but starting with an outline, not my thing, but law school, that is something law school gave me that I'm actually -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- pretty grateful for.

Josey: And I have never been able to write with an outline. If I don't have that framework and a strategy in place, it nothing will happen. Absolutely nothing.

So that was it just clicked for me, and I- I had the opportunity to intern at a refugee law clinic in South Africa.

Kate: Wow. 

Josey: Which, you know, refugee law, international law, very interconnected. And It was everything that I wanted to do. And I was like, this is it. This is my future. I go. I loved it.

But it's... There's different sections of burnout in my story, and that was the first time I think I experienced emotional burnout--

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: --in law, you know? It was impactful work. It was work that made me feel like I was doing something, you know, worthwhile. But it was also work that kept me up at night. 

It was the first time I experienced, you know, almost nightmares about the work not going right, and then I would it would someone's, you know, future would- would hold in that. Would--

Kate: Yeah, the stakes are so high. 

Josey: It was just all-consuming. And it took me a while after getting back to the States- I did that for four months, and when I got back to the states it took me a while for that to kind of... not leave, but settle so that I could kinda go back to- to normalcy a bit more. 

So that was I think that was just the cherry on top, and I was sure then that I wanted study law, I wanted to work in law, and that was it. So I went back. I was going to start- I was working in a little law clinic on campus as a legal assistant. 

Kate: Where was this, by the way? I don't even know where you went to school. 

Josey: Oh yeah! So I went to the University of Montana.

Kate: Oh, yeah, that's right! I remember you mentioning growing up on a farm. This is the one- the one piece of your background I know about is you mentioned growing up a farm, and I was like, "Would not have pegged that. At all."

Josey: No. No. 

Kate: It makes me feel very, like- I feel like you're like Clarice Starling in Silence of the Lambs.

(Josey laughs)

Josey: If you had watched me walk down the- I'm getting ahead of myself- but try to walk in heels in a suit you would have known I came from Montana. (Kate laughs) Like, country bumpkin.

Yeah. So I was at the University of Montana. I worked in a little legal service clinic, and everyone, all lawyers in my life at that point, which were few, kept telling me, "Go- go work in like, go work in a bigger law firm, go work as a paralegal. See, you know, see how you like it, and then make your decision about law school." So I took their advice. I got a job as a legal assistant, paralegal. I loved what I was doing. I got the chance to work on a lot of pro bono cases that I think continued to feed that "this is what I wanna do" side of me.

It wasn't until towards the end when I was getting ready to switch jobs and go to another firm and do more class action work that I started to experience some burnout. And I think the burnout for me started to happen when I was doing a lot of abortion ban- I was working on a lot of abortion ban cases. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: And so I was reading this material consistently and, you know, working on these- these documents, and I- I think that was when I felt like, no matter what we did, there was always potential for all of this to be completely overturned. And -- 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: -- you know, for all that work to be gone suddenly. 

Kate: Mmhm.

Josey: Which we've seen. And so I started to feel that then, and then I got to my- my next job.

And I think think the law firm expectations, the hours that I was working the egos, honestly, that you can work with in law firms oftentimes of just, you know, there's an attorney/paralegal divide, there's an attorney/staff divide, really. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: We'd like to think that there isn't, everyone would like to think- And I- I- I think to a degree they believe it and they try- that there isn't but there is. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: You know? And I was kind of tired of watching associates come in that didn't know how to do some of the things that I did and to not be recognized or valued for what I added to it. And to honestly be frequently degrade- not degraded, but I was... 

Kate: Looked down on? 

Josey: Yeah. Yeah. Looked down on. I was called, which there's nothing wrong with being a secretary, but the fact that I was a paralegal frequently called, you know, the secretary in law firms. And I just kind of I think wore me down. I was working sixty hours a week -- 

Kate: Wow. 

Josey: -- as a paralegal. You know, I wasn't even an attorney yet. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: And I was already working those hours. 

Kate: Did you work with any male paralegals or, like, do you-- 

Josey: No. 

Kate: -- do you think that "secretary" had a gendered implication too?

Josey: Yeah. I worked with a couple male case managers, but never a male paralegal that I remember. I don't know what that side of it looks like, you know, as a male experience in that position. But I do know that, especially by older attorneys, and it's, you know, indicative of the time that they, you know, came up in... As a younger female, I was consistently considered the secretary.

And even if you kinda tried to correct it, it was just like, oh, it doesn't matter. You know? 

Kate: Yeah. I feel like it's kind of similar to male nurses.

Josey: Yes! Yeah.

Kate: Like, there's a stereotype about it. And it's like, that's... that's women's work. Right? And so, like --

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: -- men who go into those roles probably experience their own kind of your discrimination. But -- 

Josey: Absolutely. 

Kate: -- there is typically a gender divide on that because it's, like, the closest to the law that women could get for a long time was legal secrataries and paralegals and then same thing for, you know, anyone who's not a white dude, basically. 

Josey: Yeah. It is really interesting. And I think those are things that I started to kind of I was getting a little tired of it, to be honest.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: I was- I think the hours and just the environment, I was like, is this...? I go to law school and I'm going to end up back here because in order to pay back law school loans, you kinda have to go to a firm oftentimes. Unless you have some form of assistance or there's another program you can work through, that's- that's kind of the reality. 

And after working- that would have been my reality. And after working in law firms for five years at that point, it wasn't the reality that I wanted at that point. And there's other layers to that, we can kind of unpack testing and getting into law school and all of that as well.

Kate: Yeah. I know we're we're gonna have definitely an episode on testing because that is you know -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- from the LSAT to the- I mean, the bar is its own insane beast. But, like, you know, you have to test to get in and then you have to test while you- there's the MPRE, which I didn't even know about because I did zero research before going into law school.

I was like, "I will go to law school and then take the bar exam," and then got to law school and was like, "Wait, what's all this other stuff I have to do?"

Josey: I always envied people that just kinda went into law school and didn't do all this, like, prep and research and somehow managed to get in and do all the exams and everything.

And I was... I guess we'll get into it now.

Kate: Yeah, go for it.

Josey: I- I was, you know, five years into working law. I could- I had all this knowledge. I had, you know, really great attorneys that I was working with that were like, "Go to law school. You would be- You have the skill set at this point to- to- do well and to have a career in this." And, yeah, I couldn't do well on the LSAT.

One, I was a full-time employee. I was working long hours. I didn't have the time to just study. And two, I'm terrible, terrible at standardized testing. I've never been good at it. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: And it didn't it just, it never quite clicked. And so it didn't matter that my resume had, you know, multiple law firms on it or five years of experience on it, or attorney recommendations, it still didn't have that element. So that was kind of another thing that was a blocker.

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: And I just kind of was tired of all of these blockers saying, you know, you're one thing and your worth is determined by you reaching attorney status, and to get to that, you have to be good at the LSAT.

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: So that's kinda where the burnout, I think, everything just hit its point for me and why I decided to make a switch. 

Kate: That makes so much sense. And this is- this is bananas to me because, like, we've talked about this before, but I'm like, by every metric that should matter, you should have gone to law school and not me. And like -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- you would have probably been a much better attorney than I ever was. I- I went into law school without... I didn't wanna be a lawyer for one thing. I initially wanted to join the FBI. (Josey laughs) I was watching a lot of criminal minds at the time. 

Josey: That makes so much sense for you. Now that I know that, I'm like, this is so on point for you. 

Kate: Well, I guess I'll- I'll get- I can kinda get into my- my story now, not to bogart the conversation, but- But so I started as I I went to drama school first off out of high school. That was my first dream. Second grade, I did some you know, play about self-esteem that my class was doing, and everyone told me I was good. And I was like, "Oh, really? Because that wasn't hard." So then I was like, "Oh, something I'm good at that's easy. Love that."

Josey: You know, what's hilarious about this? I took one acting class in college because I was like, "This might be fun."

Kate: Uh-huh. 

Josey: As soon as I spoke and I couldn't do enough with my voice or be animated, they were, like, "Just drop the class." (Kate laughs) And I was like, "I feel that."

Kate: "You're not teachable." That's horrible!

Josey: Yeah that's basically what they said they're like, "You can't do this."

(Both laugh)

Kate: You know, honestly, I was kind of thinking about this the other day, I was like, acting is a whole other realm of toxicity that would be really interesting to get into at some point, and that's probably- that's an entirely other podcast. But yeah. So I- I was like, okay. Well, I'm good at this so this is what I'm gonna do. And I went- My mom had gone to drama school in London. My sister had gone to drama school in New York. My mom and dad actually met in a theater.

Josey: What?

Kate: My dad was also into theater. Yeah. Came by the acting gene very, very honestly.

And went to drama school in LA right out of high school. Right after I graduated, my dad died of cancer. We found out actually when he came- He and my family came to my graduation --

Josey: Mhmm.

Kate: -- and my- my graduation play. And thank God, he told me after because, actually, the play that I was in was Three Sisters. The opening of the play is talking about how their dad just died. So thank god, he waited to tell me until after that play because I probably would have just like, broken down on stage. 

I actually did make the mistake of doing a monologue, like, doing Ophelia's monologue from Hamlet a little while after he died and I just- it was just me sobbing and barely speaking for, like, a minute and a half. 

Josey: Oh my god.

Kate: Really awkward for everybody in my acting class.

But so I- I graduated drama school, he passed away and I just you know, obviously, it took the wind out of my sails and was sort of putting things in perspective for me. 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And I had always been interested in animals and started skipping auditions to watch the show Escape to Chimp Eden on Animal Planet and was like, maybe that's something I could do is work with chimpanzees. And I asked my mentor who was one of my drama school teachers, and I expected her to be like, "No! The craft, you must stay in it!" But she was like, "If you can do literally anything else and be happy, go do it right now. Go." 

So I did and I went to undergrad for primate behavior and ecology and worked with chimpanzees who spoke sign language, and I'm just gonna gloss over that because I've already been talking too much. But- and then met my husband. And then- 

Josey: You met Nate before law school? 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Oh, why did I think you met him, like, during or something?

Kate: Mm mm.

Josey: Interesting.

Kate: No. We met in undergrad, we got married, I went into law school, and then he went into the military.

Josey: Wow. 

Kate: Yeah. So it's a very different path on that aspect too than a lot of, like, military spouses. Usually, they know what they're getting into.

(Kate laughs)

Josey: Yeah. Wow. 

Kate: And I knew he'd thought about it. I knew it wasn't, like, outside of the realm of possibility, but it really wasn't his main goal when we first got together.

So, yeah, I was taking this, like, digital forensics class just for fun and kind of dropped to my professor like, "Oh, I always kind of had like a secret hankering to be an FBI agent or a detective or something." And he was like, "If you're serious about that, like if that's really something you'd want to do, let's talk." And I was like, okay.

And I thought about it and was like exactly what you said, I was like, "That's it. That's what I wanna do." My third "It," this is my third thing that I definitely really wanna do.  This is it. This is the one. (Both laugh.) And so strat- like law school was kind of in my brain the- the shortest path there. 

Josey: Mhmm.

Kate: I refused to apply anywhere that did invasive research on primates, which eliminated every Ivy but Cornell and every state school- almost every state school except for the University of Colorado. Essentially, everywhere else does invasive research on primates.

Josey: I had no idea. 

Kate: Yeah. But anyway, so I got into University of Colorado, Boulder and they offered me a scholarship. So I went there for my first year, and that's when Nate went into the military.

And initially, I had wanted to apply to Cornell, but he was worried 'cause in the middle of nowhere- really, really in the middle of nowhere, so he was worried about getting a job there, but so once he got in the military, he was like, "I feel really bad that you never applied there, can you transfer?" And I was like, "Hardy har. I can try. They're never gonna take me."

And then I applied and then they did take me, and I was like, "Oh shit. I have to transfer and move to New York." 

(Kate laughs)

Josey: You went to Boulder and then Cornell. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: For someone that wasn't that interested in law, you went from Boulder to Cornell. That's a big deal. 

Kate: I did well at Boulder. I'm really glad that I- I got to go to my first year in Boulder because it was a lot of people who were a little bit older, like I was. It was- They were all extremely smart and ambitious people, but they weren't cutthroat or full of themselves. They were just really great, willing to help, supportive. 

The professors were really good. My Civ Pro professor in particular, shout out to Frederick Bloom at the University of Colorado. I don't know if he's still there. But he was fantastic. I never would have thought that Civil Procedure would be my favorite class, (Josey laughs) but he was so good.

And then, I transfer to Cornell. I got there, Nate left. So I was at a new school, it was an Ivy, I felt very, very out of place. I was a transfer, so I hadn't established friendships with people the first year. I was very alone, and he was gone.

And we'd been living together by that point for several years. And suddenly, when you go into the officer's training, you can't have any communication with anyone for the first several weeks. So I didn't get- and after that, it's only letter writing. So I didn't get his first letter--

Josey: Oh wow.

Kate: -- for, I think, a month. It was, like, a month of just being totally alone. 

Josey: How did that impact that kind of first year at Cornell then? 

Kate: I mean, it definitely, it- The other thing was since I was transferring, I feel like I got in really late for registering for classes. A lot of the classes were already full because I didn't get priority because I wasn't a 1L there.

And so I wound up taking, like, federal income tax... (Both laugh) Like, things that were just kind of filling my time that I wasn't necessarily even that interested in. So I think that that was rough. But I did get to take criminal procedure and that was where I met a couple of the folks that I wound up being friends with from that point on. 

So my- I think one of my closest friends there who wasn't a transfer- I made good friends with another girl who was a transfer. My other closest friend there, also named Nate, weirdly... 

I got my courage up to say something in Crim Pro, and it wasn't quite right, but it was, like, kind of in the zone, and someone else decided to really, like, be that person who's, like, "Actually, blah blah blah blah," which happened all the time there. (Josey laughs.) That's one of the things that I hated about Cornell was the "Well, actually" people were everywhere there, which is unsurprising. And the professors loved that shit. That was the other thing that I hated.

And I'm not trying to say that I hated Cornell or that like everyone there was horrible because that's definitely not true. There were awesome people there. But not wanting to be a lawyer in the first place, and then coming from a state school to an Ivy, all of that stuff that was so self-indulgent, and self-congratulatory--

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: -- and so annoying was just thrown into really sharp relief for me. These people aren't any smarter than the people I was just with in my class in Colorado.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: They just speak way more self-indulgent legalese and the professors eat it up. 

Josey: Confidence.

Kate: Yep. But I said something and another person did a "Well, actually." And then Nate chimed in, like, from behind me and said something like, "Well, I think Kate's answer was right in this and this, but I would also add... blah blah blah," very gently. And afterward, I was like, "Thank you for being nice!"

Josey: That, like, sealed the deal of friendship right there. 

Kate: Then, yeah, I just did- I just did my last two years there. Somehow I graduated. I flew in the middle of the pack, which I was fine with.

Josey: Mhmm. 

Kate: But I was also because I was older, I feel like I- I was like, this isn't my life. I don't wanna be studying all night in the library. I- I'm not gonna be those twenty-two-year-olds who are there just-

Josey: You don't have the energy at that point.

Kate: No, and I don't want to. So eventually, the FBI dream went away, basically at the beginning of that year. Partially from being in law school and learning that my heart wasn't on the si- that side of things. I'm more defense-oriented, I think. And so it all went away, and then I was like, "Oh, shit. I have to be a lawyer, what am I gonna do?"

(Kate laughs)

Josey: How did you end up landing on kinda what track you would take as far as practicing afterwards? 

Kate: So it actually was. It was also a friend from that criminal procedure class. He recommended an internship at Prisoners' Legal Services of New York. He had a friend who had done an internship with them, and they had an office in Ithaca, and it was all advocacy for incarcerated people.

And I loved it. I mean, I don't wanna say I liked visiting prisons, but I liked the chance to talk to people who weren't listened to most of the time. And to really, as frustrating as it was to beat your head against the prison system and just try to get even a small thing done for someone, it was so rewarding when it did get done.

Josey: I feel like that's where you and I, our stories do kind of align, is that that moment of realizing we actually could do this, like, be in law, is those experiences where we you know, it was really hard. But actually talking to people that don't get listened to in those little tiny victories were enough to kind of propel us forward.

Kate: Absolutely. I always knew I wanted to help people. I just didn't know what... how. I also knew I didn't necessarily wanna be in a courtroom, made me too nervous and I didn't like all of the procedural shit. So I was like, this is perfect because I'm not. I'm just writing to the prisons.

I'm writing,  or calling or, you know, advocating directly to prisons. It's not a trial. It's not any of that stuff that you have to do all that bullshit for. It's faster, that was the other thing I liked was I could get a turnaround for somebody, I could get a disciplinary action overturned in a couple of weeks. I could get someone an insulin pump, that one took a few months. But it was more immediate than the law usually is, and that's something that I really liked too. 

And so from there, that's kind of what I worked toward. I did the death penalty clinics the next year, other criminal defense stuff, and kinda just sort of zoned in more on that. Then when I graduated, we didn't know where Nate was gonna be stationed yet. So I did not know where to take the bar or where we were gonna live.

Josey: Wow, I didn't realize that even. 

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. So I had so while everybody else was studying for the bar and doing all of that, I'm gonna try and find a job to not have a gap in my resume. And thankfully, my lovely professors at the death penalty clinic gave me a part-time job just like as a remote research assistant for them.

And that allowed me also to have more time to study for the bar. So I got to a head start on studying for the bar, and I'm so I'm glad I did it that way because I- I don't know how people did it finishing law school or working full time. I know people who work full-time and study for the bar. Like, that's insane to me.

I don't know how- I never would have passed if I had to do that. Other people are capable of that, I would not have been. 

Josey: That'll go into another topic that we discuss about kind of inequalities of this testing and how it favors people with the resources to be able to take the time to study and not everyone has that opportunity.

Kate: Yeah. And the only reason I had the luxury was because Nate was working and making a good amount of money. He had that job stability too that- that I could rely on, and a lot of people don't have that. And I thought that so many times. But then I started applying just to take the bar exam, and it was so much money. Thousands of dollars just for- I mean, test prep for one thing, but also just to get your background check done and to apply to take the bar exam.

And then you have to get to the bar exam at whatever location that you're taking it at. You have to get a hotel. It's absolutely bananas. I had to order my driving records from- and since we moved around so much, you know, a billion different states.

And anyway, so I took the couple of months off before the bar exam, thankfully. Again, a luxury that most people do not have. So I was able to study full-time. Took the bar exam, got a job as an intern at the public defender's office. And I really loved the people that I worked with there, and they were like, "If you, after you pass, like, if you wanna be an attorney here..." and I was like, "No way in hell!"

(Both laugh.)

Like, do not wanna be in a courtroom all of the time. I admire everyone who can do that and I- I just it was not for me. And then I passed the bar and then Nate went on two back-to-back deployments, and it was 2020. 

Josey: God.

Kate: The pandemic hit and the public defender's office was trying to figure it out, but basically, like, shut down.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: I was really worried I was gonna get laid off and I started looking for other work. And I was also starting to feel the pressure of, like, well, I passed the bar and I don't have the title "attorney" yet, like, I should do something where I'm an actual lawyer. And I found this job at a nonprofit that provides free legal services for folks with mental health disabilities and miraculously they took me and gave me a job doing housing law, which I'd never touched a day in my life. Never looked at it in law school. 

Josey; This is where your story begins for me. I mean, I know some of the undergrad stuff, especially the chimpanzees because,  let's face it, Kate, you really like to talk about chimpanzees.

Kate: Why would I not talk about chimpanzees who spoke sign language? 

Josey: Fair. It's very fair. But, yeah, this- this is the part where kind of the bulk of my knowledge of your background comes from. 

Kate: Yeah. And I- I'm so- I feel I've been talking for, like, twenty minutes. You were so much more concise than I was. I'm gonna cut out most of what I'm saying. 

Josey: It's funny because I'm over here thinking, I didn't tell enough. I was like, I'm not I just was so point blank about the law experience. (Both laugh.) And I'm over here  like, "Her story's so much more interesting." 

Kate: Oh my god, no. It's too much, too much. Well, yeah. 

So start doing that work. I don't wanna say that's where my- That is where my burnout started though because I was still I was so motivated and I was... The thing in law school, law school, I guess, was like burnout to a degree in that I just wanna keep my head down and I'm gonna get through it.

I'm not doing law review and not doing a law journal and not doing all the things that people say you have to do in law school, I'm just not. Because I don't wanna go into a firm. And I just wanna go into public interest and the feedback I got all the time was like, public interest doesn't give a shit. They just want you to care. I'll care what the best of them. Which was the problem.

Very similar to your story, I started doing the work. I was very bad at boundaries at first because I was alone for six months. I wasn't going anywhere or doing anything.

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: And I had clients who needed help, and who were decompensating and who were panicking at seven pm and maybe going to lose their homes, and I was picking up the phone and dealing with it. And I learned very quickly I had to stop doing that.

And then even having drawn those boundaries, it just got to a point- And man, housing law is hard. You're dealing with this really high-stakes situation and especially our clientele, they were all indigent that was one of the requirements for using our services, and they all had mental health disabilities. Some were severe, very, very severe, and some as mental health disabilities are, you wouldn't have known if they hadn't told you. 

But you get clients who forget that they called you and they leave you seven messages in a row that you wake up to, and that's not their fault. There's no blame to be had for that, but it is stressful. I was taking on a lot of their stress, and it just got to a point where my anxiety got really, really bad.

And I think I- I first experienced physical anxiety when I was studying for the bar exam. I started having so much stress that I- my body would wake me up in the night and convince me that I wasn't breathing or- or, like, that my heart had stopped. And I had never had anxiety before. Like, I'd never had any issues with any of that. And the bar exam basically gave me generalized anxiety. And I've heard that from a lot of people. 

And then that job just made it worse. Because I just, I couldn't let it go like you were saying, like, I- and it would just make me so anxious. I was like breaking down all the time.

And I think I burned out after about six months and I was in that job for two years. And I don't- I have I have colleagues who are still there and I'm like, I don't know how you've done this and how you continue to do it. 

The culture at that place was great. I loved our executive director. It was like a really supportive- I loved my supervisor. She was like, part supervisor, part friend, part therapist. She's amazing.

Josey: The best managers are. 

Kate: Yeah. That was one of the things that stressed me about- about leaving that place was I was like, where am I gonna find something that I have this support? But it just wasn't sustainable. 

Josey: It's interesting that you talked about the- the anxiety part of it and the first time you had kind of experienced it. I had experienced a lot of things in my life that can cause anxiety and- and different things like that. And so I thought that I was pretty... All these things, I'm like, I'm gonna be fine going to work at, you know, a nonprofit or refugee law clinic or something like that because I was I've dealt with some stuff so I can kind of I have those... those boundaries or those, you know, strong shell or something, you know. 

And that was the first time I had experienced waking up to, like, nightmares of the things, stories I had heard from the clients. 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: The- the ones that we couldn't help -- 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: -- that I knew just kind of you just don't know what happens to them. And those are the ones that I would have nightmares about. And I honestly, I had nightmares for think three months after I got home as well -- 

Kate: Wow.

Josey: -- because some of the stories were so I mean, just unlike anything I ever -- 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: -- anticipated having to listen to. And and that could happen to someone. I had nightmares for a long time. 

Kate: That's interesting because for me, my anxiety stopped basically the second I quit. Somehow, I was able to shut it off. But for me, I mean, I guess I did- I burned out emotionally, but I kind of hesitate almost to say that because it was- it makes it sound like the clients brought me out, and that's not what it was. That was still my favorite part of the job was -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- listening to those stories. I don't have a problem hearing about all of that trauma and that doesn't burn me out.

It's more kind of the other thing that you said, which is where you start feeling like you're beating your head against a wall. And that was how I felt was I had so many repeat clients where, like, I had preserved their housing for a month, and then they come back the next month, and the next month, and the next month, and their landlord's still trying to get them out. And it wears you down to feel like you're just putting Band-Aids on stuff.

Josey: Yeah. I think that's the biggest part of it. Although my- internally, I want to listen to everyone's story as, you know, long as they wanna talk to me. I learned because I had worked in law for a while, prior to doing these things that you can't. You have to just, as someone goes down a rabbit hole, you have to be like, nope. We're bringing it back and just ask them a direct question to cut them off.

Kate: Sometimes that is impossible--

Josey: Yeah. It is. 

Kate: -- with mental health clients.

Josey: It is. And those were things too where I would think about that later and I was like, I don't love cutting them off--

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: -- when they're really experiencing something, but I had gotten really good at it to where in the moment it didn't affect me. 

Kate: Yeah. I was never good at that. I was never good at it. With clients with mental health issues, that can be really triggering for them too. And -- 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: -- when they start feeling like they're not being listened to, completely understandably because also they are usually not being listened to, they can escalate really quickly if you start doing that kind of thing. And so you- I- I would try and develop strategies that kind of gently guiding people back, but it was hard and it was exhausting. Yeah.

I'd be on the phone for like a really long time with people and I just got to that point. I'm- I wonder if you got to this at any point too where you're like, you send an email about something that you've been putting off, and then you're like, "Okay. Thank god. Now, I know this landlord isn't gonna respond to me for a couple of days probably, so I've got some time to just not think about it."

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And then if they were, like, weirdly prompt and got back to you the same day, my heart would just, like -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- sink.

Josey: Yeah. And on the flip side of it, because, really, when I did the refugee law thing, that was minute part of my experience. The majority of my experience was big law. It's not emotionally taxing. 

Kate: Right.

Josey: It's one company wanting to preserve, you know, their money, whatever it is, you know, that's completely fair. But it's not the same emotional weight. I would feel that with those clients, but then I also felt that with, you know, my corporate all the corporate clients that I was involved with. If they got back very quickly, I had spent so much time late trying to file something, you know, right before midnight.

And then they would respond so quickly, I was like, "No."

Kate: "No, please!"

Josey: "Please stop. Just give me a day without you so I can look at something else."

Kate: Any other topic or, like, any other thing to take up my focus. Yeah.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And I- I do like to say, like, the clients didn't burn me out and that is that is true to a degree because it was not their fault. But I couldn't deal with being called as much as I was being called and being contacted all the time and having to constantly talk people down.

I was very good at forging trusting relationships with quote unquote "difficult clients." So I really valued that, but also they were hard, they were difficult clients and they would get mad at you and they would tell you you weren't doing anything and that's hard.

Even though you know you shouldn't take it personally and you really can't, like, it's hard not to.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And then when you get frustrated, like, when you're burned out, you start getting frustrated with everything and everybody. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: And you start not wanting to answer those client calls. And I- I just didn't- I felt myself becoming one of those people that was, like, frustrated when my clients were calling me and that really for me was, like, the biggest red flag was I was like, I don't wanna be that. 

Josey: Yeah. How did that... Trying to think of how to phrase this the best. You- you then transition into- because I know this- transition into something very different -- 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: -- as we both did. Because you kinda went into more customer interactions and, you know, conversations. How did you kinda go from this pulling back a little bit from being as involved in those relationships and being as out there to being...?

Kate: It's a very different relationship when you're not responsible for keeping them in their home. And that's really it, was the stakes are so high and I felt such responsibility to people. Having a home affects everything. It affects your health, it affects your mental health, it affects absolutely everything in your life if you do not have a home. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: And so the stakes are ridiculously high and also the whole housing system is ridiculously broken. So you're doing everything that you can, but you know that until things change way, way upstream, nothing's gonna really be better. 

So what- the first thing I tried to look into actually when I was burning out was policy. Every policy position wanted a couple of years in a policy position before. And it was, like it made me think of (Kate laughs) actually, when I was in LA, and I was trying to get, like, waitressing jobs at nicer restaurants, and they'd be like, "Well, you need so many years of, like, experience being a server before you can be a server here at this hoity-toity place."

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And I was like, A) servers at those hoity-toity places do so much less work than servers -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- at like a Denny's or a Perkins. But that's- that's how I felt about it was I was like, okay, I can only get a job with- if I already have experience. So where the fuck am I supposed to be getting this experience? 

Josey: Yeah. Yeah. You almost tapped back into your kind of like you're acting and performing side. 

Kate: Yeah. Like, I feel like marketing is a weird... because it's all about profit. Right? And I came from nonprofit into marketing. 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: But it's been like such a welcome relief for one thing just to not have those stakes be, like... Whenever I start to get stressed now, I'm like, "No one's gonna be homeless." That's what I tell myself.

For now it feels right. And but it- it was like a struggle and I don't know if this was the case for you at all, like, when you were getting out of traditional law. But it was like a soul-searching thing for me to even consider applying for jobs that were not nonprofit. I was like, I'm selling out. This isn't me. Can I really be happy doing that kind of thing?

And now I'm kind of going through soul-searching of realizing that I am happy doing it. And I'm like, what is that...? For some reason...

Josey: "What does that say about me?" Yeah.

Kate: Yeah. What was does that say about me as a person that, like... I don't know. 

Josey: I think it's I mean, very similarly, I was already working in corporate law. I was- I have been doing stuff that wasn't impacting people to the degree... It had a lot of impact on the business, and I don't wanna minimize that by any means. But it wasn't that personal level of high stakes. And so I kind of had that money mentality for lack of a better word.

I think that helped to a degree, but I had a lot of- I think I still do, to be honest- of "What does this say about me?" You know? And- and to be fair, I- I came from the paralegal background and had people pushing me consistently to do law school and become an attorney. So when I quit, which- which is what it felt like, I quit --

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: -- on that trajectory. And I felt like I was giving up. I felt like it said that I couldn't do it--
 
Kate: Mm.

Josey: --or I wasn't capable of accomplishing it.

And I had a lot of my- kind of what I felt I think made me you know, respectable and worth, you know, whatever, tied up in my- my legal career. So it was really hard for me to make the switch into more of a sales position. There's a big part of me that likes it. I like the competitive nature of it. I like winning.

And- and maybe I think that's kinda where my former life and this kinda me is there is a competitive nature to it. There is this kind of, like, drive to get it done and to win. The same skill set was really applicable to both. But similarly, as soon as I started liking it, I was like, what does this say about me?

You know? 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Like, I don't feel like I'm helping people. But I've come- I've- and maybe this will be the case for many people that have experienced burnout and kind of gotten out of that traditional legal field is... you're not giving up on those things so much as you're realizing you need a work-life balance in order to make room for those things. That you do care about.

Kate: Yes.

Josey: And for me, now I volunteer as a paralegal, and I help with immigration documents, and I do things like that that honestly feels a lot more rewarding than getting paid to do it. 

Kate: Yeah. I had a conversation with my therapist about it, I was like, "If I'm not helping people, if I'm not doing this all of the time, I don't know who I am."

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Because that's been what I wanna do is I just want to do something that's meaningful and that helps people. And she was like, "Why does it have to be what you get paid to do, and why can't you just contribute on your own time and contribute money and time, and volunteer?"

And I was like, "I don't know."

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And she- it doesn't make you a bad person to not do that  24/7. 

Josey: Exactly. Yeah. And I'm still working on accepting that.

Kate: Yeah. Same.

Josey: You know, I'm still working on fully accepting that myself. I tell myself that, and that's what I use kinda guide everything that I do both outside of work and in work. But I still have a lot of moments where I'm just like, "Oh, man, am I doing enough?" I think that's where it comes back. Am I doing enough for the thing that I cared so much about? 

But, like, if you're not taking care of yourself, you're not able to make your own bills, if you're not able to have a work-life balance, you do burn out. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: You burn out. You get to where we both got to, and we're not helping anyone.

Kate: Exactly.

Josey: You can't give back to that, the- the thing that you care about if you're you're at that place, I think. So.

Kate: Yeah. And I mean, I think I knew that always. Like, I think I knew I mean, I'd heard that plenty, like, "You have to take care of yourself before you can take care of other people." But I was, like, always fine myself. I think that's the other thing is I was usually fine. I'm very privileged. I'm very lucky in my- my life that I have gotten away with very minimal trauma, and I always kind of felt like that was my responsibility was I always have to be stable person. 

And when I started being not the stable person, that shook me really -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- hard. And realizing that my role being the stable person was what was making me unstable was a really difficult thing to come to terms with as well.

And so I had to kind of accept that it was finally breaking me down. If I wanted to ever be that stable person again, I could not continue to be the person who's being leaned on all day every day. 

Josey: Yeah. It is really hard.

Kate: And that's not to say I didn't have a support system. Like-- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- or that my friends or anybody else aren't there for me, that's not true. But I'm very bad at leaning on them because I always was like, "I don't need to. I'm the- I'm the one who's fine. So you unload on me and I'm good." And that worked for me for a very long time, and then it didn't.

(Kate laughs)

Josey: Yeah. The thing that- I mean, I have those things as well, but I think the thing that shook me the most is I am a perfectionist. I- I do everything completely, and it has to be accurate, and there never you know, no one else looks at it until it's perfect. 

I got to the point of being so burnt out and, like, I couldn't focus anymore or I wasn't being as productive, it- that shook me for sure because I was like, I don't miss these things. This is not and that's not patting myself in the back. I-- 

Kate: No. I'm total- I get it. 

Josey: --make mistakes of course. But I was like, I would never miss this before. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Josey: This is not who I am, and I don't want to if I don't do something about it, I'm gonna continue to get worse. And I- my identity is- so much of my identity is being a good employee, being good at my job, giving everything to that. And so if I feel like I'm not able to perform, that's- then I'm like, "Who am I?" 

Kate: Absolutely. And that's another thing that, like, I got to that point too where I was, like, I wasn't even doing work, a good chunk of my day. I was just sitting there thinking about how I didn't wanna do work. I was shut down, and that had never happened to me before.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And that's what I hear a lot from other people who burned out is, I'm not being productive. I'm not helping the people that I'm supposed to be helping. I'm just sitting there frozen terrified to start working because they just don't wanna do it. 

Josey: Mmhmm. And I think people in the legal field especially we take that personally, you know. "If something's not working, it's me. I am -- Yeah. -- I am solely responsible," and that's not always the case, I think. So many things can factor into that, your employer. Your employer can also fail you just as much as you can fail the job your employer can fail you as well. So.

Kate: And admitting that- It feels like admitting you were wrong.

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: That you were wrong about yourself and about what you could handle, and that you failed, and like you said, like that you quit, and lawyers are also not quitters. 

Josey: No.

Kate: And like that- that's part of the toxicity I think that is inherent in law. The- the idea of burning the candle at both ends is very glorified and very prominent in law.

Josey: Yes. Yeah.

Kate: And it doesn't matter which part of law you're going into really. Maybe not so much in-house, but if you go -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- firm or nonprofit, like, you are busting your butt and either you're working absolutely insane hours and you're getting- but you're getting paid really well for it, but it doesn't make up for the lack of work-life balance as is the case in firm life. Or you might have a little more work-life balance and nonprofit. Some of them are a little more nine to five, but the work you're doing is so stressful that it takes people, and you're also not getting paid very well.

Josey: And you have very little resources. And I think it's worth just saying that applies to legal professionals at large--

Kate: Yes.

Josey: -- not just attorneys. It is very much something that applies to staff as well --

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: -- that and sometimes almost more because you're the one that's gonna get yelled up by the attorney.

Kate: Yes. 

Josey: The attorney's ass is on the line, and I- that's a whole another thing that is incredibly stressful. 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: But who are they gonna take that out on? You know? 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: And oftentimes, it's the person that's been doing the grunt below you, that's the easy target. Legal staff put so much into that, and they also are perfectionists. And they also -- 

Kate: Yes. 

Josey: -- really care about the product they're putting out. And the stress of giving that to an attorney that thinks they're so much smarter than you is it's a whole other weight that I.... 

Kate: Yeah. Which is extra silly when, nine times out of ten, the paralegals are the ones who have more experience and more knowledge. And know all of the nitty gritty stuff inside and out, not to mention the law. And plus you also are not getting compensated on the level of those attorneys who--

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: -- have just come out of law school and are...

Josey: Asking me to help them write something they should know how to write at this point. It's a challenge for any staff or paralegal or legal assistant to give as much as they do and be so involved in so many aspects because you wear a lot of hats in that position. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: But to feel like not only are you not compensated as well, but then you're also the person that gets shit on kind of, you know, if things don't go right. 

I think when we talk about burnout and lawyers, it's so real for lawyers. I mean, not only that, but you put so much into law school as well. You put so much into law school. You invest so much into that. You invest into your career and then to burn after all of that, that's a- that kind of feeling of quitting is a different thing. 

But I think in another sense for staff and paralegals, the feeling of being kind of... taking the weight of so many people or the- the frustration of so many people on yourself while also trying to perform -- 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: -- and never show any mistake to the person you're supposed to be working with is a burnout that- that is also very, very real and takes a toll as well. 

Kate: Yeah, and that's really unique.

Josey: I like that we're exploring kinda both sides of it because I think the staff side, the paralegal side can often be overlooked as not being as taxing. 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: You're seeing the same stuff. You're experiencing the same- same details, you're reading the same things, you're- all of that is coming across your desk as well. But your experience, although it's different, it still has similar impacts.

Kate: Yeah. And it doesn't get the glory or the credit. 

Josey: Yeah. No. It doesn't. It really doesn't.

Kate: Well, I think that's a good place to end. We've offered no solutions this time, which is fine. We didn't- we weren't planning to. 

Josey: No. No.

Kate: But we'll have some episodes where we talk about, like, alternative legal careers and all that fun stuff. Thanks for having this conversation.

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: I think-

Josey: We know each other so much better. 

Kate: We do. 

Josey: We're closer now. 

Kate: Oh, so much closer.

I think this was a good- a good inaugural episode and -- 

Josey: Yes. 

Kate: -- we'll be- we'll be back with more to go into more details about a lot of the stuff that I think we hit on briefly today. We wanna continue to explore things from different perspectives, you know, not just the attorney perspective. We think really important to get that perspective of- 

Josey: And not just our perspectives.

Kate: Right. 

Josey: You know? 

Kate: Also true. Other people will talk as well.

Alright. Well, thank you so much everyone for joining us for this first episode. That's a wrap. We are so excited to have everybody listening to the legal burnouts, and we will see you next time.

Outtro
Kate: The legal burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal, Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by growlforce. Thanks for listening.