[Rhia Batchelder]

I used to go to Maui every year growing up, which I know is like a little controversial now. We usually go in February because the mama humpback whales come and they all gather there to have their babies. And you can just sit on the beach and watch them everywhere.

It's like, we always call it whale soup because they're just everywhere. And you watch the babies learning to be whale- Okay, sorry, whales are a very special interest of mine. 

[Kate Bridal]

I love that. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

I love whales.

[Kate Bridal]

I'm an animal nerd of all types. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

You don't even know. Whales for me are it.

And you get to watch the babies like learn to jump and they're so clumsy and it's so cute. And you'll watch the mom like showing them like fin slap and then the little baby will do it and he'll like fall over. It's unreal.

Intro

[Kate Bridal]

I'm Kate Bridal, a former nonprofit attorney who never cared that much for the law.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I'm Rhia Batchelder, a former big law attorney who loves it… but has some suggestions.

[Kate Bridal]

And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout, offer solutions, and keep it as real as possible. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts. 

Episode 20

Welcome to The Legal Burnouts. I am Kate Bridal here with my fabulous co-host, Rhia Batchelder. Rhea, how are you doing today?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Good. I like how you compliment me every time you introduce me. It's really working for me.

[Kate Bridal]

I mean, of course. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

There's a different adjective each time as well, which I just really enjoy. So you gotta keep that up.

[Kate Bridal]

I don't even do that intentionally. I just, it just comes to me every time. I look at you and a new fabulous adjective just comes to my mind.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I love that. I'm doing great. I'm really excited for today's guest.

 This is a topic that I think is really, really important to my community and something I don't have expertise in. So I'm really, really excited for our guest and to hear everything that she knows and to share that with all of you.

[Kate Bridal]

Yes. I am also, yeah, I don't have expertise in this, but I do- I actually do suspect that I have undiagnosed ADHD. I check all the boxes. Every time I talk to somebody else who has it I'm like, “Oh yeah, that's me.”  

Our guest today is Paula Liub. Paula helps highly sensitive and neurodivergent women treat or prevent burnout and feel good again.

Combining her own recurring burnout experience with a background in psychology, yoga, and 18 years of mindfulness practices, Paula has developed a unique system that overcomes and prevents burnout by using a combination of science-backed and mindfulness tools, which I just love. So Paula, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

[Paula Liub]

Thank you so much for inviting me, Kate. I'm so excited to be here after knowing you now for a while. It's a real pleasure and honor to speak again.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, same. It was so lovely the first time we chatted, and so many of the things that we talked about really jumped out at me and stuck with me. So I'm so excited to talk about them again today on the show.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Paula, Kate had told me about you when we were planning this season way back when and we were really excited to have you. So thank you for coming. I'm thrilled to meet you and I cannot wait to hear from you and just learn.

[Kate Bridal]

So Paula, just to start off, do you wanna give us a little context about neurodivergence, what that means? Because some folks listening may not have a grasp on that concept.

[Paula Liub]

Sure, so neurodivergence is an umbrella term that encompasses a variety of conditions and disorders. So there are things like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, OCD, a few other things. Also, some people include highly sensitive people under the neurodivergent umbrella.

So essentially it is someone who has nervous system that is divergent or different from the typical nervous system. If we include highly sensitive people, it actually now includes around maybe even 30% of the population. So it is actually quite a significant amount of people who are neurodivergent.

Neurodivergent people are all around. They are your colleagues, they are your neighbors, they might be your relatives. 

If you look up like the definitions or the symptoms in medical jargon, they might sound strange or unrelatable. So what I would like to do now, I would like to read out a very short list of traits that are like an alternative list of neurodivergent traits that are not so medical that people can actually relate to more and understand what it's really about. Okay, so here's just a few. 

You are often told you are too sensitive and are bothered by smells, bright lights, certain sounds, textures, et cetera. You might be easily distracted. You have rich inner worlds and are a deep thinker. You have enhanced creativity and unique perspective.

 You have non-linear thinking and divergent ideas. You might have heightened empathy and emotional intensity. You can be very honest or naive. You have verbal eloquence and unique communication skills. You might be feeling like you're from a different planet. You might have unexplained fatigue and you need a lot of alone time.

So this is not a complete list, there's much, much more, but just as an intro, I hope it gives a good explanation. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes, I just heard a deep breath on Kate's end. (Rhia laughs) Kate, how's that landing for you?

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) Oh, it landed hard. A lot of it landed real, real hard. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

After you finished the list, you just hear on Kate's line, (takes a deep breath). I was like, “Oh!”

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, no, it really like… And I always grew up thinking like, “Oh, I'm not neurodivergent,” because a lot of the things that, kind of stereotypes that you think of when you think of ADHD or whatever it is, is like, you can't focus. And I was like, oh no, I can focus hard, very hard for a long, long time. And then I learned just like last year, that's part of it! It's called hyperfocus.

So I still haven't gone to the doctor and gotten the formal diagnosis, but yeah, last year I was talking to somebody who has ADHD and he had just been diagnosed and he was listing off all of the stuff and I was like, wait, that's all literally me. But I never struggled with it until I was working from home. So I did really well in structure and in environments where people were watching me all the time and I was being held accountable.

But now that I'm by myself, I just kind of let myself do whatever and I go all over the place. And I only ever noticed it when I was cleaning. That was the only time that it would occur to me before, because I would start in one room and be like, “I'm cleaning the bathroom.”

And then 90 minutes later, the house is done, but not in any kind of comprehensible order.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, yeah. I think that's why it's so important to talk about the more relatable symptoms like you just did, because it's important for people to be like, “Oh, that's landing pretty significantly for me.” And maybe this can help me figure out more about myself and help with shame and things like that, judgment around some of those behaviors. 

Because maybe they're not the norm, but as you mentioned, Paula, such a significant percentage of the population is neurodivergent. So thank you for sharing that. And I'm just so excited for people to hear this, because I think it's so important.

[Paula Liub]

Yes, thank you. It's definitely very important for a variety of reasons, as you say, like not to have shame, but also if you understand your needs a bit better, then you can cater to them better and then you can treat or prevent burnout better. And as well, it's very important to understand that different from a norm is nothing wrong. 

In the medical field, there is now more discussion about that maybe some of them aren't really disorders. They're more like conditions or differences that just occur naturally in any population.

Even in animal populations, they observe things like highly sensitive animals. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Really?!

[Kate Bridal]

Wow!

[Paula Liub]

Yes, yes. Even fruit flies can be highly sensitive. Imagine that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

What? 

[Paula Liub]

But they are, and actually even around 30%, just like humans. 

[Kate Bridal]

Really?!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow, I just got the chills. That's cool!

[Paula Liub] 

Fascinating. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

That is fascinating.

[Kate Bridal]

We love animal facts, as we have established at the beginning. Rhia loves whales. I am a big nerd about primates, I worked with chimpanzees. I'm like, we're all, we all love an animal fact here. 

And I also love how so many of those things are positive! Creativity and like having great verbal ability, so many of those things are spun in a positive way.

And I feel like a lot of times, just like you said, Rhia, the shame that can come around with having any kind of diagnosis for whatever reason is so stigmatized. And I love framing these things as like, you know, superpowers in a way.

[Paula Liub]

Yes, actually part of a superpower is also, you know, when you're more sensitive to triggers, you're also more sensitive to glimmers or, you know, calming stimulus. And you're more sensitive to certain treatment modalities. So while you are more prone, if you're more sensitive, you're more prone to burnout or you're more prone to anxiety or you're more prone to like a variety of things, you're actually more prone to healing as well.

[Kate Bridal]

Ohhh!

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's beautiful. And I think really helpful for people to hear. As I kind of mentioned at the top, Paula, I have an Instagram community and a lot of them are neurodivergent. Because I talk solely about burnout, and as I'm sure you are very well aware, such a significant chunk of people who are burning out struggle with neurodivergence.

 And I think that's so nice to be reminded that they also have this ability to heal and bounce back and figure out what's gonna work for them moving forward.

[Paula Liub]

Yes, it's not easy and it's not quick for everyone. It's just definitely, it can take a long while, especially because I know neurodivergence often comes with other conditions. A lot of people who are neurodivergent, they also have fibromyalgia, endometriosis, gut issues. Kind of makes it harder.

Everything is harder then. And they burn out quicker and they don't recover for a while. And I see a lot that people don't even believe that it's possible for them.

And there are all these conditions and all the circumstances that you cannot change. It's kind of logical to think that, “Oh, so then I'll have to be like this all the time.” But actually, you can get better despite the circumstances. 

You can find more ease and more healing and more relief even if you cannot change the circumstances. So this is something I really want people to hear and to find inspiration. And this is something that I have experienced myself and I see in my clients as well that it is possible. 

It is possible.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I'd love to hear more about your story and how you came to this work.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Paula Liub]

I hope it will give hope to people. Because my story, it was quite difficult. 

I didn't know I was autistic, I didn't know I had ADHD. I was burning out through high school. I was burning out through university. I was burning out through early career. 

And all I could hear, like everyone saying, “Yeah, we get tired sometimes. Then we rest, then we're back to normal.” And I thought like, this is how life was. This is what people do. This is how it works. 

And then I think I was around maybe 27 when I thought, you know what? I don't want this anymore. I don't care if everyone is doing, I don't care if this is the norm, if this is how life is. Like, I do not care. I'm just not up for this anymore. 

And I had no idea how. I had no idea if it's even possible or if anyone's done it. But I knew that I am not up for this and I am going to look for solutions.

And it took me really about six years because what was happening is that I really was dedicated to a lot of work on myself. I would go deep and dig deep and work on myself and find some like really deep cause, deep root reason for my burnout. I would remove it, I would get better and I would think, “Okay, I recovered now, I'm good.” 

And then very soon after I burn out again because there's another reason and there's another reason and there's another reason. So it took me like maybe five, six years of recurring burnouts to go through all the, what I now call layers of burnout, all the different root causes, all the different reasons.

And that was already like, I had a degree in psychology. I had a background in mindfulness and yoga meditation. I was doing all the things. And it took me such a long time. 

 And this is when I decided, you know what? Nobody has to do this ever again because like I've done it, I've learned it. And I created a system where I can help people go through these steps, go through these layers and resolve them so they do not have to go through years and years and years of suffering and losing years of their lives, careers, family, personal life.  

That was my story and that was my idea why I decided to do that. All my experience, all my suffering would not go in vain and it would serve to help other people. 

And I know it's not the same for everyone. Like some people just like have maybe one small reason and they need a bit of time to rest and they're fine. But a lot of people who have recurring burnouts, who cannot heal, who are neurodivergent, for them, they really need that, you know, more deep, full process of healing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And that is, I'm sorry you went through that because five years of recurring burnout, that is a lot to navigate.

[Paula Liub]

And that's after all the burnout in school and university! That was just five years of healing. It was the burnout of before as well. 

Like on one hand, it was frustrating because I could see like it's repeating, but on the other hand, I knew like I am progressing.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I'm curious, what were some of the things or tools or solutions that helped you the most?

[Paula Liub]

Sure, so the first one, as I said, was that deep inner resolution that I am going to do this and this is possible for me. I do not know how, I do not know if it's even possible, if anyone's even done it before, but I had this deep inner resolution that I know I deserve better. Sounds cheesy, it sounds like, you know, whatever, but this is a key when you have a deep inner resolution and you just decide that this is possible.

One other thing that helped me is learning that I was autistic. That was a big part, but not just, you know, learning that I'm autistic and diagnosis, et cetera, but really going in a lot of detail and this is what I do with my clients as well, going in a very exact details about your neurotype. 

It's not just about knowing that you're autistic, it's knowing exactly what are the triggers, what are the glimmers, where your energy comes from, where the energy goes, so many other details about your exact neurotype and how it works, how to cater for it, how to make it work in a society that is not meant for us.

So this is, as I would say, one of the layers, knowing your neurotype. Some other layers would be understanding the drawing of the boundaries. Again, it's something that you hear all the time.

It's not just important to learn to say no or to establish the boundaries, but to understand why you weren't able to do that. Is it people-pleasing? Is it validation-seeking? Is it low self-worth? Is it lack of confidence? Is it limiting belief?

You have to really go deep there and to be radically honest with yourself to work through those and to fix those, because if those are not fixed and you try to put a boundary, that boundary will not work. I mean, it will not serve the purpose of keeping you safe because you will be panicking inside that- if people are gonna accept you, if you're gonna get the validation, if you're not, you know, all the other things will be happening in your head and that boundary, even if you put it, it's not gonna do any work. 

 Another example is nervous system regulation, how to calm your nervous system, how to keep calm because you actually can keep your nervous system calm. I'm sure you understand this thing that there is a trigger. Then you get activated, you get stress response, and you can have the stress response after the trigger is not even there anymore. Equally, you can turn off the stress response even when trigger is there.

[Kate Bridal]

So I recently listened to your episode of Fried, The Burnout Podcast with Cait Donovan, which is a great podcast. I recommend it to everybody. Cait is an amazing host.

 And I learned something from you about breathing, which is that when you inhale, that's actually activating the stress response and the exhale is the part that is deactivating. That was so interesting to me. And I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about that and your breathwork stuff as well.

[Paula Liub]

Sure. So I'm a breathwork instructor amongst many other things. So- ‘cause my special interest is mindfulness, spirituality, so I've done quite a few things in that area.

The nervous system has two branches, sympathetic and parasympathetic. Sympathetic activates the stress response and parasympathetic activates rest and digest. All your body systems are related to those two.

Sympathetic activates your heartbeat, makes it faster, parasympathetic slows it down. And inhale activates stress response, exhale activates rest response. So this is very, very important to understand because so often you hear people say, “Oh, just breathe.”

 And if you're stressing and somebody tells you breathe, you just do… (Inhales sharply.)

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Paula Liub]

And then activate the stress even more. And it doesn't work. Or some people say, “Oh, do deep breathing,” so again… (Inhales sharply.)

 So it's very important to understand if you are stressed or if you see that someone is stressed, you need to focus on exhale. And especially trying to make the exhale soft and slow and long. Try to focus on exhale and make it as slow and smooth and long as possible.

 Ideally should be longer than the inhale. That's how it would work. Because you want to balance that out. So you want to make the exhale longer than the inhale. And ideally you would do this exhale like a sigh, like a bit with a sound. But maybe it's not possible, like if you're in a conference. 

You can do it with a sigh, with a sound. It helps you even more. But if you can't, it's kind of like blowing soap bubbles, kind of like blowing through a straw.

 And this just turns off your stress response and turns on your rest response. And this is something that I do all the time.

[Kate Bridal]

I do it without realizing it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I do that too.

[Kate Bridal]

When I'm stressed, I always am like… (Loud exhale.) And my husband will be like, “How you doing?” (All laugh.) But I never knew that. And since I learned it, it's been so helpful.

 The other night I was doing it, I was lying awake anxious about something. And I was like, “Focus on the exhale.” And it helped me.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's so important too, to have those tools that you can use when you're sitting at your desk. Something that's easy, accessible, free, quick. And if you don't make the noise, can be even done in public. 

So I love that. I actually didn't know the difference between the inhale and the exhale either. It's so fascinating.

[Kate Bridal]

One of the things that really jumped out to me in our first conversation, Paula, was your focus on women and how women are already kind of told that they're too sensitive in the first place, right? So then it makes it even harder for them to get these diagnoses a lot of the time. And we already know women are underdiagnosed.

 But I would love to hear a little more about that and how you decided to focus on women specifically in your work.

[Paula Liub]

So for me, one of the important layers was as well unpacking how my female socialization and how patriarchy affected me and how it affected my burnout. I actually today just listened to your podcast from two podcasts ago where you talked about Barbie and I think you covered so much on that already.

(Paula and Kate laugh.)

[Rhia Batchelder]

We talk about that a lot. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

We do. 

[Kate Bridal]

Patriarchy is a stressor, yep.

[Paula Liub]

That's really, you know, that's, I don't know if I can phrase it in any better way. But yeah, you know, as women, we are socialized that our needs do not matter, that we need to please everyone else first. We need to focus on being comfortable and safe and not stirring the water.

 And this is the interesting thing about neurodivergent women, because as a woman, we are told that our needs don't matter. And as neurodivergent people, late-diagnosed neurodivergent people, we don't even know what our needs are in the first place because we have been gaslit our whole life that this is not too bright, this is not too loud. Why are you so tired? You haven't done anything. 

 So you're getting used to just not listen to your body and not hear your body at all. So you don't even know what your needs are in the first place quite often. You can't even hear what your body is saying. 

And then on top of that, you are being told that your body doesn't matter anyway and your needs don't matter anyway because you're a woman and you need to please everyone else first. So it's easy to say you need to listen to your body, but if you cannot hear your body in the first place, how can you listen to it? You need to learn how to hear it first. 

 So this is really why I decided to work with women because I understand this very well. I understand how it works. I went through it myself. I unpacked it all. I see it happening all the time. Everyone's speaking about it, thank God. And this is something that's close to my heart and it's something that I understand and that's why I want to work with women. 

I know men have other issues. I do sometimes get some men come to me and I do try to help them with other aspects that I can. And I am planning to offer a few more things in the future that will be for everyone. But yeah, at the moment, my main client group is neurodivergent women.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow, that was very powerful. Seriously, I got the chills when you were talking because I feel passionately about that as well and it's just so interesting and heavy and sad to think about all of the neurodivergent little girls out there with sensitivities that deserve to be respected, not getting that and just learning from such a young age that they can't even trust their physical senses. I mean, that's devastating.

[Paula Liub]

And it's one of my missions, really. My mission is neurodivergent wellness for everyone in the world. 

 You deserve to be well. You can be well. You might have gone through a lot in your life and you might have a long way to go, but it is possible. And I really, really want to bring this message that it is possible and we are here to help. There's so many resources out there. 

 I see more and more neurodivergent people thriving, healing and thriving. And I am myself hoping to serve as an example as well as my clients and my other colleagues.

 And I really see the positivity and the possibility for a better tomorrow in this area.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, it's just so crazy to think about when I was a kid, I didn't know anything about neurodivergence. And now it does feel like I see more and more stories of people talking about kind of starting to unmask and heal and pull back all the layers as you keep saying, Paula, because I really do think that's such an apt way to describe it. And pulling back all the layers and really healing out loud too.

[Paula Liub]

I didn't know that I was neurodivergent, right? And I had all those needs and I made all these silly requests. At one point, I did believe that they were silly requests, and now I know that they're not silly requests, and I still have to coach myself through it sometimes that this is not a silly request, this is a disability adaptation.

 I don't even want to disclose my diagnosis to everyone because then again, there is another discussion, “Oh, you don't look autistic. Oh, now everyone is being diagnosed. Oh...”

[Rhia Batchelder]

People tell you, you don't look autistic? What does that even mean? 

[Paula Liub]

My response is like, did you expect Dustin Hoffman?

[Kate Bridal]

That's what I was just thinking is, were they picturing Rain Man? Like, is that their only, I mean, for a lot of people, maybe that is their only kind of mental image of an autistic person. And it's like, that's not it.

 In my job as an attorney, I worked with people with mental health disabilities, that was our entire mission. You know, it was hard sometimes, we'd be asking for accommodations from landlords for like, you know, extra soundproofing in an apartment because the neighbors were loud or something was going on outside that was bothering our client who had these sensitivities. It's one of those things that landlords would often be like, “Oh, well, I don't think that that's real because I don't see it on the surface.”

 So I can imagine it's really difficult to kind of be challenged on that all of the time as well.

[Paula Liub]

Yeah, so normally, I don't even disclose it, I just say, “Look, this is what I need because of my health” or whatever, or sensitivities and usually that kind of works. And now it's becoming really good, things like airports, you can request special assistance and you just tell them exactly what you need and they do it. And it's amazing.

 It's life-changing for me now. I can actually fly without having to rest for a whole two days after the flight. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow. That is amazing.

[Kate Bridal]

Wow. Yeah, and I know the sunflower lanyard is a thing, right?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, I don't know about this. 

[Paula Liub]

Yeah, so sunflower lanyard is literally like a lanyard with some usually green background and sunflowers on it. And it shows that a person who's wearing it has invisible disabilities.

It started in airports, but now it can even be used sometimes in train stations and even supermarkets. And it just shows that a person might need extra help, might need extra consideration, might need extra time to reply to your question.

[Rhia Batchelder]

One day we will be a society that doesn't take differences so personally. I think that's part of the issue, right? Like if someone's acting different than us, we like judge and project that maybe they don't like us and we start like, I don't know.

It's just so obnoxious and exhausting, I imagine, to be on the other side of.

[Paula Liub]

Yeah, so this is something I learned when I was working with children, you know? And before I even knew my diagnosis, that actually like every child, they are kind, you know? They want to be kind, they want to do good. 

And usually if they aren't, it's because there's something bothering them. They need some extra help. They need some extra compassion. And when you show it to them, then they're good again, you know?  

And I think the same is with adults, you know? If someone needs an extra request, it's usually because they actually need it. Usually there is a reason for that. You might not know it, it might not be apparent, but it's just like, why not be like a kind person and help out somebody, right?

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, and that is something that I encountered a lot, like when I was working, is that… It was just this assumption that people were faking it to get some manner of advantage or to get some kind of- I mean, it happened mostly with emotional support animals, which I get, because a lot of people actually do fake that, which makes it really hard for the people who legitimately need them.  

But, you know, it's just, there's this kind of default assumption that it's like, if it's something that's invisible like that, if it's not something that's outward and obvious, that it's not real. And I don't know why that assumption is made.

It's like, why do we want to live in this world where we assume everyone's trying to deceive us all of the time? That seems so stressful and miserable. Like, let's try and assume the best of each other, but then also that can get you in trouble, I guess. 

So probably people who have been deeply damaged in the past by being too trusting.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. I think there's like this general sentiment too, that if you haven't lived through something personally, you can't relate to it. Like, there's a lack of empathy. If I haven't felt that way, I'm not going to trust that you feel that way. And it's a damn shame, really.

[Paula Liub]

Or, you know, quite often, actually, people who do blame from that side, they themselves have undiagnosed neurodivergence and they've been suffering through it. And then they think that everyone else has to suffer through it.

[Kate Bridal]

Ohhh, like, “I've been handling it, so why can't you?”

[Paula Liub]

Yes, it is hard for everyone, and I suffered through this, so you should too.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. Like, “I didn't get those accommodations. I was gaslit. I have to shove down my needs. So now it hurts to see that other people are getting the love and support that I didn't. And I'm going to use that as like a dagger,” yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, yeah. That's so common in so many things. I hate that attitude, which is why I loved what you were saying at the beginning of, like, that the reason you do this is because you went through it and you didn't want anyone else to have to go through it.

And I love that attitude. We've talked about it, actually, in the context of lawyers who are like, “Oh, it was hard for us, so it has to be hard for all the upcoming lawyers. Why should you get to use this new technology?” 

Whatever it is. Like, and I just never understood that. Like, if it was so hard, why would you want other people to go through it?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, it's so true. It's in so many areas. Even like student loans. “I paid off my student loans, so you shouldn't get relief.” It's just, it really is everywhere. And it's such a dark mark of our society. And I think so much- 

[Kate Bridal]

It is.

[Rhia Batchelder]

-would be better if we could just- 

[Paula Liub]

It also happens in families because so many people have missed the diagnosis. It's hereditary, so if somebody in the family gets it for the first time, gets the diagnosis, like probably half of the family has something as well, but they're all like, “No, no, no, I'm also the same, but I just always like pulled through and suffered through and pulled myself together so you should too, don't invent a diagnosis.”

 Well, actually, no, you also would have the same thing. And that's why it's hard for you.

And you also are entitled to more help and more understanding and more compassion. 

 It's not always like that. Of course, sometimes, you know, people are really compassionate and understanding, but sometimes I hear those stories that, you know, somebody gets a diagnosis and they get this thing from their family that, “Oh no, it can't be that because we all just are like this and we all just suffer.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, that's kind of the point, mom. 

I'm curious with your experience, I could see getting a diagnosis as being… aAnd let me just like pause for a second. So I haven't talked about this on the podcast, but I am diagnosed with complex PTSD. Some people classify that as neurodivergence. I don't know a ton about that. 

I am wondering for you, whether the diagnosis that you were autistic and had ADHD was like a relief or if it was hard?

Because for me, there was like a little part of both, right? Like it was hard to see the shift in identity, especially when I heard that like, I don't know, complex PTSD often means that your brain has changed forever. And, but then there was so much relief because I had like a treatment plan and like real- there was like a framework that I could start to understand myself by and like start to heal through.

 So I'm wondering what your experience was with that.

[Paula Liub]

So it was mostly relief because when I first realized that I might be autistic, I started looking for information and I just got a lot of confirmation and then I decided to go for a diagnosis. And it was really relief and validation massively. I mean, of course there was a bit of grief about how life could have been if I knew from the beginning.

 One thing I want to say to everyone who's listening now and who might be seeking diagnosis is don't do my mistake. Don't hinge validation of what you're feeling on diagnosis. 

 What you are feeling is true. What you're going through is real. If something is too bright, it's too bright. If you are tired, you're tired. You know, if you need a validation, you can get it from me. I can tell you it's true. It's real what you're feeling, what you're going through.

It's also normal to want a diagnosis, because the reason I wanted a diagnosis because at that time I was going through yet another burnout and I was confused till the end of everything. I just didn't know what was true or what was right or anymore. And I needed to understand if this is something I'm imagining or it's true or it's real or it just looks like or it's something completely different or I'm losing my mind.

 So at that point, like it was validating. And I understand that some people are looking for it in a similar situation that they need to understand. They need to have an answer if they are in a situation like that, very vulnerable situation, then yes, absolutely. 

But I also understand that it's not possible to get a diagnosis for everyone because it can be expensive. It can be long waiting times. And even if you do get to evaluation, not all the professionals can diagnose it in a highly intelligent or in a woman because it's much harder to diagnose. We are much better at masking. And also some professionals are a bit outdated. Science is still catching up about women with autism or ADHD.

Myself, like I was very lucky to have a very good professional for my ASD evaluation. And he said like, it was very clear. And at that point, I wasn't really considering ADHD, but a couple of years later, then I thought, “Well, actually, it looks like I might have ADHD.” 

And I went for ADHD evaluation and it was a disaster. I made a mistake of just going through the state system, which was, I got some like really old psychiatrist who just, I think just like really outdated. And she did the whole evaluation.

And she's like, “Well, you have all the signs, but because you are intelligent, there is no point of giving you diagnosis.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

What?! 

[Kate Bridal]

What? What does that even mean? (Laughing) Why? What are you talking about?

[Paula Liub]

Because, you know, I'm intelligent. I can kind of get through life in other ways. And I was telling her, “Actually, it costs me a lot, you know, not having that help, not having that adaptation, not having that.”

 She said, “Oh, but you can.” And I said, “Yeah, but you know, it puts me at more risks of depression, anxiety, burnout.” And she's like, “I can give you antidepressants then.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh my goodness. That is so offensive. 

[Kate Bridal]

And scary!

[Rhia Batchelder]

How dare you?

Because it's like, yeah, I can get through life, but at what cost? And why should I have to suffer just because I can make it? If I'm expending 80% of my energy when someone else has to only expend 15%, it's not the same thing.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Paula Liub]

It would be equivalent of saying, you know, if somebody has a very good upper body strength, they do not need a wheelchair because they can just use their arms. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh my God, true. 

[Paula Liub]

It's for dignity. It's for mobility. It's for living your life as close to normal as you could. Yeah, so there are professionals out there like this who would not give you a diagnosis even if they should.

[Kate Bridal]

Wow. Well, and that's so scary too, because it's like, she was just ready to prescribe you stuff, which might not interact well with what your actual experiences or what your needs are. Like, that's what's so scary to me is that she was ready to just be like, “Well, I'll give you antidepressants.” It really can mess you up when you get the wrong prescription.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

[Paula Liub]

Yeah, I think it's pretty much everywhere in the world now. You can get antidepressants really quickly and easy, and people don't even look into the primary reasons. Because if your primary reason is being autistic or ADHD, and that's why you have depression or anxiety, medication might not actually even help you. 

 In some cases it might, but in other cases it would not, because, you know, it might not be a problem of your mood. It might be a problem of not having attention or not getting things that you want, because you cannot, and that medication might not even do anything for you.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, it's so frustrating too, because I imagine if you're neurodivergent, you're struggling with it, you are maybe questioning yourself, you've been gaslit, you are living in a society that won't accommodate you. And then you go to the doctor, finally, and try to advocate for yourself, and these are the types of issues that you might encounter. 

You might get put on meds quickly, rushed out of the office, told that you don't need a diagnosis or whatever it is, and I just can't even imagine how frustrating and disheartening that would be for someone who is… I mean, it's just so much work to get the support and proper help that you need, and it shouldn't be like that.

[Paula Liub]

Yeah, we are used to it. We are experiencing it our whole lives, you know?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. That's terrible.

[Paula Liub]

This is why, again, my mission is the neurodivergent wellness advocacy.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Do a lot of your clients work in the corporate world, or do you kind of see a trend with work environments that your clients are thriving in or particularly struggling with? 

[Kate Bridal]

Great question.

[Paula Liub]

There is no trend, unfortunately. Yeah, great question, because I hear it all the time. You know, people come to me from law and saying, “In law, there is a lot of burnout.”

 People come to me from medical field, say, “There is a lot of burnout in the medical field.” People come to me who are entrepreneurs, freelancers. They said, “Oh, us freelancers are burning out a lot because we have to carry it all on our own shoulders.”

 And the same for corporate world and the same for any profession. And to be honest, I myself have changed careers a few times and I realized, like, for me, it wasn't the answer. I still burnt out.

 And of course, sometimes changing jobs, changing environment, it might help a little bit. And I want to say, of course, if you have abusive patterns in your environment, you have to leave, yes, absolutely. But if you're burning out and you are just tired of your job, quite often it's not the job.

 It's very important to be brutally honest with yourself and understand really what's going on and why, because changing careers, changing jobs, it takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of energy. It will take probably money.

 You know, it will take a toll on you energetically, time-wise, money-wise, you know, everything. And you might end up in the same place. So it might be helpful, but it's very important as well to be very honest with yourself and maybe talk to someone and understand really what the reason is.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I think that is such an important point. I mean, it's really just about, which is kind of the answer for everyone, it's about learning yourself, learning the stressors that really are particularly challenging for you, learning the accommodations you need, and not gaslighting yourself throughout that process, as well as doing all the healing work that Paula has talked about.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, that's been a recurring theme on the podcast. Like for me, jumping out of my job worked very beautifully, but I do still have habits and I've learned even more through doing this podcast about how many habits that I do still have that could drive me to burnout in another position, or could drive me to burnout doing this even. And so I am now learning to manage those things.

 Self-relationship is such a key to fighting and preventing and recovering from burnout. And of course, there are always gonna be things that you can't control and like, it's not all on you. 

 It's not about self-blame. It's just about learning yourself and being kind to yourself and having patience with yourself, which is something that I struggle with along with, I'm sure most people out there.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Most women really struggle with it. I think growing up as a woman, and as Paula has mentioned, kind of being gaslit by the patriarchy into getting further and further away from your needs and learning that your role is really to create peace, create cohesion for everyone else in the room. And we just get so far away from ourselves.

 Coming back and being like, “This is what I need. This is what I want. And I'm gonna make that happen,” can feel really hard and uncomfortable.

[Kate Bridal]

It feels selfish. I was just talking to a friend of mine who was like, “I think maybe I'm not depressed like I've been told my whole life. I think I just like doing nothing sometimes, but I've always been told that's so shameful and that that's a sign of depression that I've always forced myself to feel like it's not what I really want. It's just depression.” 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow.

[Paula Liub]

Wow, that is something that I can relate a lot because I realized that from my healing that passive rest is really important to me. It's probably the most important type of rest for me to just really do absolutely nothing, to lie down. And I do it a couple of times a day when I work. I just lie down for 10 minutes and look at the ceiling. And I need this often.  

I also wanted to reiterate another thing that Kate has said. I think it's very, very important after we talk about working on yourself a lot. Actually, burnout is not your fault. It is in your power to heal, to get better. It's possible for you to do it. You can do it, but it's not your fault that it happened. It happens to a lot of us because of the society, basically. 

But we can change it. It's in our power.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I think that's really important too, especially for neurodivergent people, just because our society is so unaccommodating. You have done literally nothing wrong. You are navigating a world that is extra stressful for you. And I think deconstructing the shame around that is so, so important. I always say shame is such a big stressor. 

Also, Paula, I love passive rest too. That was one thing when I was doing burnout recovery. I was like, I love laying in my bed. I love laying on my couch. I love- I call it floppy seal time. (Kate laughs.) Because you just like, you know, it's like, it reframes it from being lazy to like, obviously, you know, animals do this. After they go hunting, a seal will come up on the beach and lay in the sun.

 And that's a very important part of their ability to, you know, take care of themselves and live. And I always just like reframe it that way. 

[Kate Bridal]

You're just being adorable on your couch.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, exactly. Rest is adorable.

[Paula Liub]

It's so important to understand that we are not human doing, we are human beings, right? It's not about what we do. If you want to achieve something, it's not just work you need to do. You need to sleep, you need to eat, you need to rest, and you need to work. Only then you can actually achieve something. It's integral part.

 And I know you will relate to this, that actually when I rest, that's when the best ideas come. That's when the best solutions come.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, it's almost like you can hear your intuition better when you're baking more rest into your day. I do some active rest too, which for me is just like a slow walk. I live in a very cute neighborhood with like big trees and I hear the birds chirping. And about 20 minutes into a walk for me, I start getting all sorts of ideas. I'm like taking out my phone and my notes app and writing them down.

[Kate Bridal]

That's exactly how I am, that's so funny.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, when I'm stuck and I'm stressing, I just remind myself like, “You need rest.” We don't want to frame everything in terms of productivity, but rest actually is incredibly productive if you do have big goals, if you are someone who is a high achiever and that really matters to you, your performance really matters to you. Taking care of your physical needs is crucial.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, and it's funny because I'm like, I'm very similar. My brain loves to tell me that like, I'm never going to have another idea again if I have one day where I don't have an idea. So I will be like, “You know what? No, I reject you, I'm taking a walk.” 

But so now what I have to combat in myself is the expectation that when I'm resting, I will have an idea, because now my brain has gone, “Oh yeah, rest is productive. Oh yeah, that walk is usually when we do like, just unplug and go for a walk and listen to music, you have nine ideas for your new content.”

 Then if I take a walk and I don't have an idea, now I have to combat shaming myself after the walk for just having taken a walk, which is absolutely toxic, but I recognize that it's toxic and I am rejecting it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Kate, can your brain be nice to you?

[Kate Bridal]

No.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, okay. (Rhia and Kate laugh) We're working on it.

[Kate Bridal]

No, it can. I'm actually, it's funny because when I took the Enneagram, there's like one type that's Type One and they have a really harsh inner critic and I was like, “I don't relate to that.” Like, I'm not in my head all the time saying, “You're nothing, you're terrible.”

 Like, most of my self-talk is generally fairly positive. It's just kind of like, it's not really an inner critic, it's just these feelings more than actual thoughts of like self-shame. I don't really know how to describe it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's like you come back from your rest and you're like, “Damn it, that was supposed to be my idea time.” 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, it's just like a vague, like a general feeling. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay, so everyone, try not to put pressure on your rest.

[Kate Bridal]

As always, do as Rhia says and not as I do. 

(All laugh) 

[Rhia Batchelder]

I used to be similar, very, very similar to Kate. I've just, I'm about five years into my journey of like untangling my perfectionism too, because yeah, it controlled my entire life and just I can't live like that anymore. 

[Kate Bridal]

No, you can't. Well, this has been so lovely and so amazing. Paula, I would love to just hear from you. Where can we find you? Where can people follow you? Where can people access your work? Just promote the hell out of yourself. Go for it.

[Paula Liub]

So you can find me on Instagram at paula.mindfulness and you can also join my Facebook group, Neurodivergent Mindfulness, where I have some free trainings and I have a bunch of neurodivergent people who are all in a similar situation, trying to improve their health and wellness. 

 What I really would like to do is I'd like to invite people who think they might be burned out, who resonated with what I've been talking, I'd like to invite you for a free consultation. You can book a call with me. We go through what is going on, your situation, and I'll point you in the right direction so you know where you are, what you need to do, what next steps for you are, and this way you can get there quicker.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Love that. 

[Kate Bridal]

And you work with clients all over the place, right?

[Paula Liub]

Yeah, yeah, all over the world. I'm sure you will be able to add links to my stuff and in the show notes.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, we will definitely make sure to do that.

[Paula Liub]

And yeah, be well. It's not your fault and it's in your power. That's what I want to say.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Love that. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise and story with us. I think this episode is so, so important and I know people are gonna get a lot out of it, especially that validation piece, which we just know is so important. So thank you.

Also, everyone, if you are neurodivergent, go join that Facebook community and follow Paula on Instagram because having community and seeing stories that are similar to yours helps combat shame and really helps you feel that belief that healing is possible and feeling more at ease in life is possible. So that's amazing that you've built that for people.

[Paula Liub]

Thank you. It's really a pleasure. And as I said, it's my mission, it's my pleasure. I love doing that. I love seeing people thrive. I love seeing those success stories. And I just want to see more of them. So come and let's make it happen. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes!

[Kate Bridal]

I love it. 

[Rhia Batchelder] 

You are so, so important to this world. So keep going. We need you.

[Paula Liub]

Thank you so much for having me. It's really been great to talk. And thank you for inviting me, for giving me the space, the time.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Of course, it was our pleasure. 

[Paula Liub]

Thank you.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely.

[Kate Bridal]

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.