Kate Bridal: You guys are gonna fix me, right? That's what we're here for.

Rhia Batchelder: No fixing. That is negative self-talk, Kate.

Jordana Confino: We're gonna have you eating lunch in no time.

Rhia: Yes, we do want you to eat lunch.

Kate: I'm gonna be eating lunch. 

Rhia: That should be a major goal.

Intro

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

Josey Hoff: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts. 

Episode 17

Kate: Welcome, everyone, to another episode of The Legal Burnouts with myself and my lovely new co-host, Rhia.

Rhia: Hello, everybody.

Kate: So exciting to be here again with you.

Rhia: I'm so excited. Happy Friday!

Kate: Yeah, yeah, it is Friday when we're recording this.

Rhia: Oh, right.

Kate: You forget it's not like live.

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: Yeah. Oops! I'm still learning!

Kate: Happy Wednesday when it's posted.

Rhia: (Laughing) Happy Wednesday!

Kate: But that's okay. I forgot to mention this kind of last time, but like you are probably going to be the one co-hosting most of the episodes this season, just ‘cause we're respecting Josey-

Rhia: Yep.

Kate: We are respecting her time and her need to work and prioritize herself. But Josey will, she will still appear. Nobody panic. How are you doing this Friday? How was your week?

Rhia: My week was good. It was really busy, super productive. 

Kate: Yay.

Rhia: I've been working on my new bedtime. (Kate laughs.) I think we talked about this because I really will just stay up till 2 am for no reason at all. 

Kate: Same. 

Rhia: Just because I like the night. 

Kate: Me too.

Rhia: And so I've been working on that. It's been going so well. And I feel better, mood's better, energy's better, focus is better. So that has been really exciting.

Kate: Yes. 

Rhia: Also, my meal times have been- I've been trying to eat at regular times. So that's been going great as well.

(Rhia laughs.) 

Kate: Well done.

Rhia: I'm feeling really great about my habits this week.

(Kate laughs.)

Kate: So proud of you.

Rhia: Thank you so much.

Kate: I ate… anything today.

Rhia: Great.

Kate: So that's good for me. I usually don't eat till dinner.

Rhia: Oh my God.

Kate: Not intentionally. I wish I could be like, “It's intermittent fasting!” It's not. It's just me not eating all day because I'm like, “I'll eat after I send this email.” And then I send nine more emails and then it's three hours later.

Rhia: Kate is teaching all of you what not to do because that is brutal, brutal abdication of self-care.

Kate: (Laughing) Do as Rhia says, not as I do.

Rhia: Right. And just so in case you're like Kate and you're struggling with this, one of the things I learned I have to do is meal prep at least something to at least nosh on when I first wake up, like I make myself little protein bites that I just like shove in my mouth. So I have that before coffee. 

Kate: Nice.

Rhia: Coffee on an empty stomach: Tough for cortisol levels, tough for stress management, tough for burnout prevention. 

Kate: Yep. Tough for acid reflux.

Rhia: Oh gosh. I didn't even think about that. But I always like prep myself a little something. Otherwise I will get in those habits too.

Kate: Very smart. As always, tips and tricks. And we have someone else joining us today who also has amazing tips and tricks. Jordana Confino is on with us today. 

Jordana is a certified professional coach, a positive lawyering professor, and founder of JC Coaching and Consulting, which is a company devoted to advancing the well-being of the legal profession. Until fairly recently, Jordana actually was one of those high-achieving perfectionist types that she now coaches.

She went from undergrad at Yale, where she earned a degree in psychology, straight through to Yale Law. She then worked at Columbia before transferring over to Fordham Law, where she served as the assistant dean of professionalism. And she still serves there as an adjunct professor. She teaches a one-of-a-kind course on positive lawyering, which empowers law students to use science-backed strategies of positive psychology to achieve greater satisfaction and sustainable success in their lives and in their work. 

And if that is not enough for you, she is also certified in coaching and applied positive psychology. Jordana, goodness gracious. Welcome.

Jordana: Thank you so much! And finally, I get to speak because the most important thing, perhaps right now about me, is I have the best tips and tricks about meal prep. 

So I, in law school, was known as the salad girl because I made the most epic salads. They were family-sized salads, but they were just for me, no sharing. (Rhia laughs) And they were full of every delightful roasted vegetable there is, plus roasted salmon. They were just amazing.

And my trick is I do all of the roasting on Sundays, takes an hour. And I have lunch and often dinner for my entire week.

Rhia: It's the best.

Jordana: We can talk more about that later if you like, maybe links in the show notes to the baking trays of vegetables. But yes, I am so excited to be here. So thank you so much for having me on.

Rhia: We are so excited to have you. When I read your bio, I was like, we are kindred spirits. And also, I don't know if you know this, but I went to UChicago Law School. The UChicago professors always had a little chip on their shoulders about Yale.

Jordana: Oh, yeah.

Rhia: (Laughing) I don't know… 

Jordana: Oh, yeah. 

Rhia: I don't know why, but it was like our unofficial rivalry was Yale for some reason, so. We're rivals.

Jordana: I mean, in the best sorts of ways. I had the same exact experience. When I heard your podcast episode last season, Rhia, I was just… I mean, my two reactions, I was telling you this earlier, I was like, oh my God, this person's amazing. I'm so excited to know her, but why the hell don't I know her yet? (Kate laughs.) So thank goodness we rectified this. And thank you, Kate, for making it happen.

Rhia: A hundred percent.

Kate: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so psyched to have this conversation with both of you. I'm just going to sit here and take copious notes.

Well, Jordana, I obviously mentioned a little bit about your background. In addition to all of those things, you did also burn out at one point.

Jordana: At multiple points! Multiple points of burnout!

Rhia: Oh, you’re a reoccur-er?

Kate: So I would love to hear a little bit more about that and what that looked like for you and your experience with burnout. And then of course, we will get into all the other good stuff.

Jordana: Yeah, absolutely. So I feel like I have two major burnouts in my past, in my trajectory that really brought me to where I am today. 

And so starting in high school, I was just, you know, raging overachiever. Really good at school and achieving things that I set my sights on for capital S success reasons. (Rhia laughs.) I was a psychology major in undergrad because I was told that if you go to an elite undergrad and it's liberal arts, you can study whatever you want and still go on and do something capital S successful afterwards. So I studied psychology because it was interesting.

But then all my friends were graduating. They were going into finance and consulting. So I felt like, well, I can't be a teacher or a psychologist, which is like the two things that I actually wanted to do that pulled me. So I was like, okay, I'll go to law school because I'm really good at test taking, I'm super type A, all of the things. (Kate laughs.) Went to law school pretty much for that reason.

And then as soon as I got in, I felt like I had to come up with a better reason because that's- what are you going to tell people? So I basically concocted for a whole variety of reasons that I wanted to be a federal criminal prosecutor, specifically focused on sex trafficking prosecutions-

Rhia: Wow.

Jordana: -because I'm involved with nonprofit work from an advocacy perspective, focused on anti-sex trafficking and other things. I'm like, okay, well, this is a really important issue.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Jordana: And also being in AUSA is really, really prestigious. 

Rhia: (Laughing) Yep.

Jordana: So this is the path that I'll pursue. And I figured this out very, very beginning of 1L and then put the blinders on, what are all the things that I need to do to make this happen?

So, okay, I need to spend my summer at the U.S. Attorney's office. I need to clerk. I need to clerk again. I need to get the big law job. Specifically, I decided Davis Polk because when I spent my summer at the U.S. Attorney's office, it felt like the majority of people had come from Davis Polk. No. No clue if that was actually true. (Rhia laughs.)But when I looked around, I saw a lot of Davis Polks. And I spent my second summer there. 

And I was really good at blocking out everything else. And so my belief was that in order to be successful, I have to forgo every aspect of my wellbeing. So I just, I worked constantly.

 Also, from a very young age, I was ruthlessly critical and of and hard on myself. And that was how I really drove myself to do all of these things. And so as law school's going on, increasingly getting the warning signs, this is all wrong. 

So one, I was so lonely, it literally physically hurt. I don't know if you've ever experienced that feeling, but like you physically feel it in your body.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: And so I was just so sad and lonely. All I wanted was like my person, and yet I didn't interact with the outside world. (Kate laughs.) So as my mother told me during my what else summer, Jordana, you're never gonna meet your husband working inside of our apartment! So there was that.

My anxiety was increasingly debilitating. I had paralyzing anxiety around big writing assignments because I was so perfectionist. The way that I made that anxiety go away was just by getting the requirements out of the way. So I wrote my two major law school papers that they require second semester 1L, which like…

Kate: What?!

Jordana: … literally no one does. 

Rhia: No!

Jordana: Because the only way that I can make the anxiety go away was by making the assignments go away.

Rhia: Wow.

Jordana: But I then, you know, signed on to do two years of clerking where literally all you do for two years is writing assignments. Now my anxiety is through the roof. Then- and I'm at the U.S. Attorney's office. I'm looking around and I'm like, wait, lawyers, especially prosecutors and litigators, they do a lot of writing. (Rhia laughs.) I was like, ooh, but okay, at least I'll find the arguing in court cool. 

Then I took trial practice and I was like, "Oh my God, I hate this."

(Kate laughs.)

Then the physical health issues start happening. All the things. Basically I reach a breaking point and at which point my anxiety is so high, debilitating physical health issues, I was just so unhappy and I'm looking around and I'm like, it's never going to end because there's always the next thing. 

Rhia: Mmhmm.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: I keep getting these things that bring me to the next level. 

Kate: Yep. 

Jordana: And so initially I was like, all right, in 10 years, once I'm like the chief of criminal unit (Rhia laughs), U.S. Attorney's office, and then a partner at a big firm, then I can switch and do something that'll make me happier. And then I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm literally going to break. And so kid you not, it was a Google search on how to be happy that led me to discover positive psychology in the first place. 

I took a course on it and my brain just exploded. Everything I thought about how to be happy and how to be successful in maximize your performance professionally is completely backwards from what I thought it was.

Rhia: Mmhmm.

Jordana: And also everyone out there in the legal profession is just as misguided as I was. 

Rhia: Yes.

Kate: Yep.

Jordana: No one knows this and everyone needs to. That's what I want to do. I also realized that if I didn't leave law, practicing law at that point, it was never going to happen because the only reason not to was that I was scared and that was never going to change. So I was like, I need to do this now.

Pivoted over to working in student services at Columbia Law School. So I was like, all right, I'm going to do counseling focused on wellbeing. It'll be completely aligned with my values, which is something that I had learned in my positive psychology course. (Rhia laughs.) Everything's going to be great now, right? And then fast forward a few months and I burned out again. 

And now I was confused because I was like, wait, but I like this and I'm no longer in the toxic work environment.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: It was at that point that I realized that you can take the girl out of the toxic work environment, but if you don't take the toxic boss out of the girl's head, she's still going to drive herself into the ground. And so what I had not touched at all as a result of my training in positive psychology was my relationship with myself. 

I hadn't touched the vicious inner critic and the inner drill sergeant that were pushing me to work in order to kind of prove my worth to other people and myself, and trying to drive me forward by telling me how awful and weak and lazy I was, and that everyone was going to find out if I didn't work harder.

(Kate sighs audibly.)

I was doing it to myself. And so it was at that point during my time when I was working at Columbia, that I really delved deeply into the world of coaching and self-compassion and self-talk and all of that stuff. I think that part was even more transformational than the first part.

And that's the one that I think has really been most important for, you know, inspiring, but also empowering me to do like every single thing that I'm doing today. 

Rhia: Wow. 

Kate: Yes.

Rhia: I really relate to your story. It just feels so familiar in so many ways, from the early on in grade school, getting that praise for being smart and locking onto it and just letting it drive you for the next 20 years or whatever. (Kate laughs.) Chasing that high of, you know, when you're in first grade and they're like, “Oh, do you want to go to the advanced math class?” or whatever. And you're like, what?

Jordana: Yeah. My role in my family growing up was being the good girl.

So fascinating the things that you find out about yourself on your therapist couch, you know, years after they’ve happened. But looking back and being like, oh, my raging overachieving took root when my dad got really sick and everything was going out of control and my family was really struggling, and  like, what could I do, right? 

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: As the younger daughter to help my family and make things better. It's like, well, oh, I could be really good, both in terms of, you know, maximizing my grades and also people pleasing and all of these things that go together. And it's like, that was my way to, you know, have that feeling of control, feeling like I'm valuable, that I'm loved and I'm like doing my part. 

And it's so interesting because even now that I'm in a place where like I professionally help other people do this work, every year I feel like I get to a deeper layer… or I guess I'm trying to think of which way this analogy goes. I pull off another layer of, you know, all of that stuff that I internalize and like come into myself and my power even more.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: And so every year I'm like, oh my God, this is the new me. And then the next year it's like, oh my God, I was still so stuck in all those things. (Kate and Rhia laugh.) Which on the one hand, I feel like some people are like, “Oh God, this is an ongoing process. That means it's not a one and done thing.”

Rhia: Yeah.

Jordana: And like, if that- It's not. And if you expect it to be, you're gonna be really disappointed really quickly and probably give up.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: But I think the amazing thing is that we can keep making progress and every incremental little bit of like freedom and progress makes such a world of difference. So that's kind of cool.

Rhia: A hundred percent. I know, people feel like it needs to be- they like need to change completely to see results and see that stress reduction, see that enjoyment, fulfillment more. And it's so not true.

As you mentioned, I mean, it's a process. I've been doing like-

Jordana: Yeah.

Rhia: -personal development work since 2017, both by myself and with a therapist and with coaches. And there's still more to do, but I am so much happier and more grounded and more able to show up in a way that, you know, as you mentioned, aligns with my values and feels good.

But yeah, I've noticed that a lot. Clients will come to me and they'll be like, they just want that easy solution of, oh, if I just quit my job, I'm never gonna burn out again. And it's like, we have to look at how you're co-participating with these dynamics, because, like Jordana's story shows you, you go into a new workplace, even if you love it, even if you're not toxic, if you're pushing yourself through the day, if you're working all hours, if you're yelling at yourself, shaming yourself, holding yourself to unattainable standards… 

Jordana: Totally! And I think that sometimes people leave jobs that they actually would like if they weren't tearing themselves to shreds. 

Rhia: Oh, yes.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: So whenever people come to me, they're like, “I'm so burnt out. I think I just need to leave my job,” I will always encourage them to say, “How do you feel about giving us a few weeks or a month to see if we can heal your burnout a little bit and change the way that you're relating with yourself?” 

Because maybe you'll end up being like, “Oh, this is actually a place that I wanna be.” But also it will bring you just back to a clearer level of thinking so you can make your exit decision and where you wanna go next and what you wanna do from a position of strength-

Rhia: Yes.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: -rather than like, I must just send this email and resign now because I may not live till tomorrow otherwise.

Kate and Rhia: Yeah.

Jordana: And I always like when people are making any sorts of important decisions from a point of strength and wisdom and values-based decision, not just out of fear or perceived necessity.

Rhia: I agree. I do a thing called a burnout audit with my clients where it's like the first thing we do when we're really going through burnout is sitting down and understanding all their major stressors. And I ask them about work.

So then we have that list and we can kind of analyze like, “Okay, is this list way too long? Are there so many bad fit stressors happening with work that it is time to think about what's next? And how do we use what's stressing you out now to analyze what's a better fit?”

And then we talk about routines, self-care, self-talk, all of those things, perfectionism. And sometimes that list is really long and the work list is shorter than they thought. 

Kate: Yep.

Rhia: And it's like, okay, so the work is really on your self-relationship, the way that you're showing up.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: Are you shaming yourself when you're not doing it? Where are we? If you're dealing with burnout, you have to go deep into what are the stressors? What are the behaviors that are really driving this for me? Because that's going to help you make the choice.

Kate: When I burned out in my attorney job at the nonprofit, it was like, I had so many other things going on. It was 2020, right? It was my first job as an attorney, so there's that pressure. It was an area of law I hadn't studied before. My husband was deployed twice back to back for two six-month stints. So I was alone during the pandemic, you know, there were so many things that could have been contributing to it. 

And so I was cautious because I was like, I don't want to bail on a job where I love my coworkers, I believe in what we're doing, I really feel like I'm making a difference, and I love so many aspects of it, I love my clients… just because I'm letting all of this other stuff get to me.

Every time I thought about it, I was like, the only thing that is giving me the sinking feeling is work. I can handle all of that other stuff. It is just, I can't do this emotionally anymore. And that was difficult because I was like, I want to help people. That's all I wanted to do. And to find out you're not emotionally capable of doing a job that does that, it was very hard for me.

And I shamed myself about that.

Jordana: I think that so much of it comes down to how we're talking to ourselves in our head and relating to ourselves. And this is why perfectionism has really become the core root of everything that I do. 

And I actually define perfectionism very specifically. So often people are like, “Oh, I'm not a perfectionist because a perfectionist is someone who does everything perfectly. And I don't do that.”

Kate and Rhia: Mmm.

Jordana: No, no, no.

A perfectionist is someone who feels like they should do everything perfectly, and tries to shame and blame themselves into doing things perfectly, and drives themselves through fear and self-criticism and self-flagellation. That's what perfectionism is, right? 

It's that anxious voice in our head that's telling us that we can't be doing these things that are good for us, or we should be doing things better than we are, or that we're not good enough. That creates all of this pain. 

The external circumstances are one thing, but then it's everything that we read them to mean about us and our worth as a human that then pulverizes us on the inside. 

Kate: Yep.

Rhia: Yes.

Jordana: And that is something that I feel like so many people, they don't even recognize that thought in their head because they're just so wrapped up in it. Or they really, really think that it's helping them.

Rhia: Yes!

Jordana: They think, “Well, yeah, that drill sergeant, it's making me better.”

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: And that's why I'm just so obsessed with all the science showing like, no, it's not. It's not only destroying your mental and physical health- which by the way it is- it's actually hampering your performance as well, like, professionally.

Rhia: Yes.

Jordana: If you learn to be nicer to yourself, it will not turn you into a weak, lazy marshmallow as we all believe it will. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: It's actually gonna turbocharge your performance because your drive for excellence or high standards are distinct from the self-flagellation. And they're not gonna go away if you get rid of the self-flagellation. You're just gonna be spared some of that fear, self-doubt, risk aversion, all those things that are actually preventing you from doing your best work.

Rhia: I could not agree with you more! I love- I'm so excited! (Kate laughs) I love when lawyers get into the professional- like personal development space because we're such nerds about it, and we will find all the like science-backed reasons to not do the thing.

(Kate laughs.)

Jordana: Yes!

Rhia: I feel the same way. I have a workshop called, I call it Fuck Perfect.

Kate: I love it. 

Rhia: There's so much research around what- healthy striving versus perfectionism and how like perfectionism really does ultimately hold you back from feedback, from growth, from trying new things, which as you get more senior in your career, those things are essential. So we think when we're juniors, like being perfect, always saying yes, going above and beyond is gonna get me there.

But then when you're at that place where you're starting to progress, now you're in a place where it's really hard to grow because it's scary to step outside your comfort zone when your inner drill sergeant is gonna come yell at you. 

If you learn to compliment yourself and be gentle on yourself when you're learning something new and you're making mistakes, it's gonna start to feel good to try to step outside of your comfort zone. You're like, “I'm gonna have my back in this moment.”

Jordana: Yeah, no, totally. And I love, that's why everything that I do, it's grounded in serious science. 

Rhia: Yes.

Jordana: Not in a boring way, in a fun way.

Kate: We're nerds here. We don't find science boring.

(Rhia laughs.)

Jordana: Yeah, no, but it's all so counterintuitive-

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana:  -that there's no way I would have tried it for a second if there wasn't all of that data to back it up. And I know that's the same of other people-

Rhia: So true.

Jordana: -because it all feels like the opposite of what we've so long believed to be true. And for me, it took not only knowing the science, but also reaching a literal breaking point where I was like, “Oh, well, might as well try this because I cannot get up off the floor.”

Rhia: Right.

Kate: I'm at the bottom, yeah. 

Jordana: Yeah, no, and actually I remember the day, so my therapist had been trying to get me to do self-compassion for years. And I was like, “Oh, no, no. Oh, no, no, no, no.” And then I had that second burnout point. And at this point I was dealing with a crazy chronic physical health issues. Like I could not walk.

Kate: Oh my God. 

Jordana: And I was doing like- getting tested for all the autoimmune diseases, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, all the things, can't freaking walk. 

Rhia: Oh my gosh.

Jordana: And all they kind of came out with was, “There is no explanation for this.” And you don't know how common this is. And chronic pain too. 

Kate: Especially for women.

Jordana: Yes! I discovered this mind-body medicine approach through the Curable app. And they had all of this education about how perfectionism and anxiety and self-criticism are linked to this chronic pain syndrome. And ultimately I ended up healing myself in that way.

But it was during this point when I literally could not walk, and I was just being harsher and harsher on myself for not being able to perform in the way that I wanted. And my therapist was like, “Jordana, if you had a racehorse that had literally broken down on the ground because of exhaustion and pain, would you just keep whipping it to try to get it to get up and run faster?”

Rhia: Ooof.

Kate: Oh. 

Jordana: And I was like,”...No.” 

Rhia: Wow. That gave me the chills.

Kate: Me too, I have goosebumps right now. 

Jordana: Yeah. And then she was like, “Why are you doing that to yourself?”

… And that was when I got my first self-compassion workbook. 

(Rhia laughs.)

Kate: Yay!

Jordana: Yes! And so it took me that and that. But I think the great news is that you can come back from that. 

Rhia: Yes.

Jordana: I got engaged in 2019. Wedding set for June, 2020- LOL. So we ended up postponing our wedding five times. I actually have three different ketubahs because we kept ordering and framing the ketubahs with the new dates until we stopped.

Kate: Oh my god!

Rhia: No!

(Kate laughs.)

Jordana: But the great news was when I was planning my first wedding, I was going to physical therapy four times a week because I was worried that I wasn't going to be able to walk down the aisle. That's how incapacitated I was. Fast forward three years, I danced for seven hours straight in my sparkly wedding keds.

Kate: Yes!

Jordana: So the good news is that if you've broken down, you actually can get back up. My hope is to find even the skeptics and persuade them with this science before they reach their breaking points just to like, you know, save them all of those PT bills at the very least.

Rhia: The PT bills, the time off. I completely agree. I feel like my mission is the same.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: Here to help you prevent and come out of the hole if you need it. But also just want this information out there to protect as many people from going through what we went through. 

Kate: Yes.

Rhia: Because I didn't take it seriously for so long either. I remember when I was practicing BigLaw in New York, I would go to osteopaths all the time because I was always like had issues with my back, like being really tight. 

And they would just be like, “You're 26? This is not okay.” They'd ask about what I did for work and I'd tell them and they'd be like, you need to quit. 

Kate: Oh my god.

Rhia: Like your body is really responding to this. And I was just like, “La la la, anyways, see you next week!” (Kate laughs.) I'm just going to keep paying you to help me fix my back instead of addressing the fact that I'm under so much stress that I'm constantly just like a brick.

Jordana: During my first clerkship, when I had my first bout of ulcers, the doctor told me two things. He's like, one, “I used your video, the video of your endoscopy for teaching purposes.”

Rhia: Oh, great. 

Jordana: “Because I've never seen that many ulcers like that-”

Kate: Typical overachiever.

Jordana: “-In the stomach of someone who's like,” I think I was like 25. 

Kate: Oh my god!

Jordana: I was 25, 25 at the time. 

Kate: Yeah. When I used to get checkups in law school, like for, you know, whatever, once in a while I would go to the doctor. They would be like, “Your blood pressure, we're not concerned, but it's getting there. Like, watch it. Like, what are you eating?” All of this stuff. 

And I was like, “I'm a law student.” And every time I said that, they would be like, “Oh. Kay.” That was all the explanation they needed.

(Kate laughs.)

Jordana: Yeah. 

Kate: I was like, cool. So that's a fun fact about this profession is just that we know, and other people- and doctors know.

Jordana: Another fun fact about this profession is I'm like, you went to the doctor in law school?! That's so responsible of you!

Kate: It was like the gynecologist probably. It was like only the necessary.

(Kate laughs.)

Jordana: This is making me think of before my first clerkship, when I went out to CVS and bought like eight tubes of toothpaste and like four things of lotion. Because I was like, “I am not going to be able to go to the drugstore for the next year!”

Kate: My boundaries in law school, weirdly were actually the best I've ever had. I think because I was just not into it. I was like, “Well, I don't want to be a lawyer. So I'm not going to be like all these other people who want to be lawyers.” I think it was helpful that I just wasn't that interested. 

And then as soon as I left law school, it all just fell apart, no more boundaries.

Jordana: Was that because you cared more?

Kate: Yeah. I mean, I was doing stuff that I was really trying to help people, and that I was really passionate about and cared very deeply about and was affecting people's lives in a really real way. And so that was what I couldn't turn off.

Rhia: Yeah. For what it's worth, whenever I did pro bono stuff, like immigration pro bono work, I was similar. I couldn't sleep because it was like so real.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: I remember handling a family separation case. Like we didn't know where my client's kids were for seven days. And I was like, “Well, I have to find her children. So I will not be sleeping or eating until that's accomplished.”

Jordana: Yeah.

Kate: Well, yeah. 

Rhia: People who do work you really care about-

Jordana: And then there's like the secondary trauma aspect of that too.

Rhia: Oh my gosh, I know. I mean, 100%. And then you're learning more about how our system works and treats people.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: It was like, it was way too emotionally taxing to me.

Kate: Well, and you shame yourself for feeling emotionally taxed. Like that's what I would do all the time too. And I did practice self-care. (Laughing) I took baths on a regular basis, and doing everything I could meditated while I was doing the stressful work. But it's just like at the end of the day, if you care, you can't turn that off. It's hard.

And also then you're shaming yourself because you're like, “I'm stressed. What do I, how do I think they're feeling?”

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: Yeah. 

Kate: “They don't have a home.” And it's very easy to start playing that comparison game, which doesn't really serve you or your client. But it's very hard not to be like, “Well, you should just be appreciating everything and then working as hard as you can to help other people get to the better spot.”

Jordana: I feel like- I wonder if Rhea, if you've encountered this at all, like now that I'm on the other side of things, right, and my job is helping people with their wellbeing. I want to help everyone.

And there comes a point where, you know, that then starts to impact my wellbeing just in terms of hours in the day. And so I feel like drawing those boundaries and also understanding that will make me so much better at helping people. 

Rhia: Yes.

Jordana: Because if you give all of yourself to something, you know, it might be great for like a minute, but then you're depleted.

Rhia: Yes.

Kate: Yeah. 

Jordana: And you can't continue giving in the same way, which then limits your ability to give. And/or you're showing up in a different way, which then limits your ability to give. And so I feel like I've learned that lesson the hard way multiple times. 

I still remember there was a one point back when I was still at Columbia, probably before I figured out the self-compassion work. And I remember a student sent me an email and it was just like, it was like 9 p.m. I was still at Columbia. 

And I get this email from a student that's like, “Jordana, I just feel like I'm in a deep hole and I don't want to come out.” And in my mind, I was just like, “Me too!!!” (Kate laughs.) And I was like, okay, I'm no good for anybody right now. 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: Gotta start to working on the self a little bit here because like, this is not, this is not my function.

Rhia: Yeah. Like you mentioned, coaching is such a- it's an intensive job because, you know, you have to be very on. You are listening to every word. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Rhia: You're looking for the gaps, the holes, the right, the next right question. 

Kate: You're building trust.

Rhia: A hundred percent.  I'm obsessed with my work. I'm obsessed with my clients. I believe deeply in my mission. So that can be so dangerous as we're mentioning. Very strict boundaries are necessary, especially like I do a lot of social media marketing. So that's a whole thing because going on Instagram now is work for me.

Kate: Yep.

Rhia:. And so just so many parts of my life can be intertwined with my business. It requires you to know how to turn off at night.

Jordana: Going back to the science, one kind of like area of research and positive psychology I found so helpful in this respect is Bob Vallerand's dualistic model of passion. Usually we hear passion and we're like, oh, that's just good. But there's actually two types of passion. 

So there's harmonious passion, which is like, we're super passionate about something, but we're able to keep it in harmony with other aspects of our life, we're able to disengage from the passion, like the object of our passion, when it's not constructive for us.

Obsessive passion is where our identity is so rooted in the object of the passion that we cannot disengage even when it becomes harmful. 

And the great news is, is again, the science shows that people who are obsessively and harmoniously passionate actually perform the same pretty much in the short term, but people who are harmoniously passionate perform way better over the long term because they're less susceptible to burnout.

Reminding yourself, like, I love this so much and that is why I have to draw these boundaries so that I'm able to keep doing it.

Rhia: Yes!

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: And again, this is the type of thing that feels so damn counterintuitive that like, thank God there's studies for it because otherwise I don't think that my brain would believe it.

But I remember when I was in my positive psych certification, they presented this. I'm like, “This! This is what I would have listened to in law school!” Cause when I was in law school, I didn't care about being happy or healthy. But if I saw this being like, you can perform better over the longterm, like maybe, maybe I would have listened.

Rhia: Yep. Making sure your identity doesn't get fully intertwined with the action of working is crucial.

Kate: Yeah. I started turning off all of my alerts at the end of the day at five. I was like, I am done and I'm not turning them on again until nine, but I still, you know, it would rain and it was LA and I love the rain because I'm from Minnesota so I love seasons. And I would be like, “Oh, it's raining,” for a second. 

And the next thing was, “I hope my client's roof isn't caving in. I hope that other client's landlord actually fixed that hole because her kid sleeps under a hole in the roof and he's getting rained on. I hope that my two clients who were on the street found somewhere to go tonight and they didn't have to give up all their stuff to get into a shelter.” Like it was completely impossible for me to disconnect from that. 

And I was also like, if I get to a point where I am disconnecting from that, I don't think I would like that about myself, if that makes sense.

Jordana: Yeah.

Kate: So that was a struggle.

Rhia: Yeah, it is.

Jordana: Yeah. I feel like so much of that is learning how to manage the anxious thoughts too and learning how to like see the first thought that comes in, and compassionately acknowledge and validate that thought because it's coming from a wonderful place. 

And then respond to it and kind of stick yourself in there and be like, “But we're not going to go down that rabbit hole because that's like, angsting about that right now isn't actually helping them.”

Kate: Right.

Jordana: “I need to actually rest right now so that I can help them.”

Kate: Yeah, practically what are you doing about the rain? 

Jordana: Totally.

Kate: You can't make it not rain. (Kate laughs.) And I've already done everything I could that day to try and get those clients issues fixed. I'm not gonna do it at 10 p.m.

Jordana: Yeah, totally! And this is kind of going back to what I was saying about learning how to manage how we talk to ourselves and the thoughts, because we may never be able to stop that anxious thought from coming in. 

But what we can do is see that thought, feel, you know, whatever anxiety or pain or worry is associated with seeing that thought, but then, you know, choose to respond in a different way, even if we don't necessarily like believe the response, but we're just like not leaning into that thought and letting it pull us down the rabbit hole of more and more and more and more thoughts like that, because that just ratchets up the anxiety so much. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Jordana: And this is like, so I wake up  like every hour of the night. Often, cause I just have to, I have to pee constantly. I don't know if that's too much information for a podcast…

(Kate laughs.) 

Rhia: Not this one. 

Jordana: Okay. Excellent. And when I do often, especially if it's a busy period, my initial work thought will pop into my head.

Kate: Yep. 

Jordana: But it's like, I have this amazing, like split second where it's like, I can see that thought and bat it away, and be like, “Nope, I'm sleeping right now.” And I actually, at the end of the day, my therapist taught me to close the computer and say to myself, “Done for the day.” And so now whenever the thoughts come in the middle of the night, I'll imagine the computer closing and say, “Done for the day.” 

And if I do that right when I notice the thought come in, then I can go back to sleep. If I let myself linger on that thought for even one second, then it hooks my anxiety-

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: -and then I'm like physiologically revved up and then I don't go back to sleep.

And so learning how to catch the thoughts and then handle them rather than just letting them take over us can honestly mean the difference of whether or not it's toxic to stay in a job where you are doing some sort of work where you're having that type of life and death feeling.

If one can learn to relate to their thoughts in that way, then all of a sudden, that's not to say it's not challenging, but it's no longer taking the same sort of mental health toll on you.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: A hundred percent I think like there are three things that I do in the thought work world that really, really helped me because I had to do the same thing. I had to learn how to be intentionally engaging with my inner critic to learn to stop. I created a habit of pushing back that got easier over time. Like you mentioned, it's so challenging at first. But it gets easier the more you practice, the more you practice. 

One is exactly what you said. Sometimes I'll just be like, “Nope. Nope.” And I'll say it out loud. Either distracting myself or just kind of moving my body, doing something like moving to a different space in my condo. That really works for me. Or, like Jordana also mentioned, I do the talking to myself almost constantly.I have little convos with myself. I'm hyping myself up. I'm soothing myself when I'm anxious. Like, that helps as well. 

Or three, if it's feeling like really bat shit crazy, doing tapping, flailing around, literally doing something somatic to help your butt like distract yourself and get out of that stress or anxiety response. You get better at those things and learning those skills will change your life, period. Even if you're not burning out, even if you're not as intense as some of us, the way that you can build confidence through thought work too is just unbelievable.

Jordana: Yes, and the reason it actually gets easier is because of neuroplasticity. Every time that we think of a specific thought or we do have a specific action, the connection between the neurons that fire when we do that, they literally grow stronger every single time. 

And so this is why our anxious thoughts and our self-critical thoughts are so fricking sticky. We've been thinking them on repeat for decades. But every time that you practice a self-compassionate thought, it literally gets a teeny tiny bit easier to think that thought again, until it becomes instinctive. 

And so if you practice this, you'll notice that at first you will be like racking your brain, and you can't even come up with a thought. Then it'll get slightly easier to come up with a thought on command. Then all of a sudden one day you're going to see self-compassionate thoughts like popping up on their own. 

Rhia: Yes!

Jordana: You're like, what in the world? It's bananas, but it actually happens over time. And it's just that willingness to practice it. It actually works, which is so crazy. And I didn't think it was going to work. 

Rhia: I think that people need to hear this. Like, it is possible to change the way that your thoughts are running you and the way that you respond to them. And a lot of people don't believe that. 

Jordana: Yeah, no, and this relates so much that like the identities that we have, whatever it is, it's like, I am a perfectionist, I'm a martyr for the cause, I'm a workaholic. And then we say, "But I'm gonna try to change. "

But then of course, when it gets to the point to do something slightly different than we've been doing all this time, we get that surge of anxiety. And then our brain says, “Well, of course, we're not actually gonna sit with this anxiety and do this thing because we always give in.” 

So for the longest time, for instance, like I was saying, “I'm gonna stop working at 8 p.m. so that I can have dinner with my husband, Zach.” And then every day when 8 p.m. would roll around and I would be in the middle of something or not done with something, I'd be like, “All right, well, yeah, I never do this because I'm the person that can never do this.”

Kate: Uh-huh.

Jordana: But if instead we change the identity and say, “I'm not someone who is a workaholic and never stops. I'm someone who is willing to commit to sitting with the anxiety and taking even the teeniest step in the other direction.” 

And so rather than just like feeling the anxiety and being like, “Oh, well, I guess, you know, I can't do anything about this now because I'm feeling the anxious impulse, and of course I'm going to yield to it and either do the thing or not do the thing,” doing one thing that's like a teeny bit counter to the anxious impulse itself breaks that identity and shows you that you're capable of stepping towards this other identity. And like, it's so powerful. 

Kate: Urge surfing, right?

Jordana: Yes, urge surfing! 

Kate: That's something I learned from you that I'm obsessed with because it made a big difference for me. 

Jordana: Yes! 

Kate: Will you get into it a little bit and explain that a little more?

Jordana: Oh my gosh, yes of course! So the reason that we want to make any sort of change is because we have recognized that doing it the way that we've been doing, the way that our anxious brain is telling us that we need to be doing it, is causing some sort of pain in our life, because otherwise we wouldn't want to do anything differently. 

But the problem is that every time that we go to do something different, we get this surge of anxiety in the moment that's really uncomfortable. And the way that we can make that anxiety go away is by yielding to whatever our anxious brain wants us to do. 

Kate: Yes. Just do the thing and then it’s done.

Jordana: Just do the thing, or just don't do the thing and then it's done, whatever- either way. And because our brains like rewards, we're like, oh, well, I'm going to go for the positive reward here, taking that edge off the anxiety. 

But the problem is that every time that we take the edge off the anxiety by yielding to the anxious impulse, the slow burn that made us want to change in the first place gets even more painful. And so what we need to do is when that anxious urge comes up, you surf the urge. 

So here you just practice mindfulness and you really just like curiously observe the urge like, “Oh, I am feeling this upwelling of anxiety right now because I want to buck this trend. Here's why I want to buck it. What does this anxiety feel like? Like physically in my body? Like what are the thoughts that are coming in?” and just like kind of distancing ourselves from that. 

And if you can sit with that, the urge actually dissipates eventually. Like it might take an hour or two, but it actually does. And then what you can do is see how you feel afterwards, both immediately and like the next day after doing or not doing the thing, and usually you'll feel a lot better and that provides your brain with some positive reward value that makes-

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: And also you’ll notice that the world didn't come crashing down-

Rhia: Right.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Jordana: -which your anxiety was telling you was gonna happen.

Kate: You’ve learned that you can do it-

Jordana: Exactly.

Kate: And nothing disastrous occurred. Yeah.

Jordana: Totally! And then every time you do that, it becomes easier, and we don't think that we can surf this urge of anxiety. We think it's gonna kill us. 

Kate: Well, it feels like it's gonna be endless!

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: Right.

Kate: It feels like you're never going to stop until you do the thing. That's how I am is, if I don't reply to this email. I'm not gonna be able to sleep. It's always gonna be on my mind. 

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: Yeah, and it's the crazy thing is like, it's actually not true. It feels so true.

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: But it's not true. And then we can gather evidence of that each time we do it.

Kate: Exactly! If you sit there for a couple of hours, you’ll be okay.

Jordana: And better yet, don't sit there, go do something fun.

Kate: Yeah.

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: Yes. If you're listening to this and you're like, “I wanna do that, but I'm freaking the fuck out about it. I feel like I may die.” (Laughing) I understand. 

Kate: It’s hard.

Rhia: And one of the things I started doing when I was practicing and really working on this, I started scripting, which I used to call mindset journaling, where I like write in the mindset I want to approach the day with. So I would say things like, “I'm gonna be nice to myself today when I need breaks. I'm gonna take three breaks today.” I would just kind of like write out these behaviors. 

And as I was writing, kind of visualize myself doing it. And that was what started creating those pathways for my brain. I mean, research shows that if we're trying to engage in a behavior and we're struggling with it, even just visualizing the behavior and like us doing it and starting to think about like the fact that maybe you could do it is gonna help.

So if you're looking for a tool, that was something that really helped me, and a lot of my clients use.

Kate: That's awesome.

Jordana: Yeah. Also a very specific application of this: One big cause of burnout, right, is that we just overextend ourselves. You might have this disease that I do, which is the second that you don't feel like you're so burned out you're going to die, you get anxious that you're not doing enough and then you just start volunteering for things. 

Kate: YES!

Jordana: It’s really fascinating.

Kate: You're like, “I don't feel like I'm at death's door, so I must not be working hard enough.” 

Jordana: I must not be working hard enough.

Kate: Which is a culture I think is perpetuated heavily in the legal industry, which is one of the problems. That's glorified. 

Jordana: Oh completely.

Rhia: I mean the billable hour gets in your brain in that way.

Kate: Exactly.

Jordana: Yep. But on the, like just the saying yes, because I know that so many people, especially, you know, if you're in your legal jobs, like people- the asks will be coming in, you have to learn to say no. I started setting myself like a mandatory waiting period before responding to requests…

Kate: Ooooh, because I’m such a rapid replier. Yep.

Jordana: Yes, to allow myself to just let the energy come down and ask myself questions. Do I need or want to do this? Do I have time to do this? Do I really have time to do this? If I do this, what things will I not have time to do? 

Rhia: Yes!

Jordana: Like, what will this be taking the place of? How will I feel if I do this? And then also, if it's something like way in the future, would I have time to do this if it worked tomorrow? 

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: Because it's amazing how much time I think that like six months from now Jordana will have, but it actually doesn't work that way. And so often I've that's given the opportunity for my anxious must say yes immediately urge to kick in and my wiser self of like, no, OR I could, you know, set certain parameters on this. That's not just like, “Yes! Anything you want! Right now, yesterday, done!” Which is honestly my natural instinct.

Kate: It's my default as well, yes.

Rhia: When you make that calculation, you might still wanna say yes, great, amazing, we love that for you. But sometimes when you write down like, it might really kind of jar you into making a choice that's actually aligned, so I love that.

Jordana: Yeah, totally. Someone said something that just really stuck with me, they're like, “I always check in with myself to see where I am. And when I noticed that I'm at a seven on the stress/burnout scale, I make changes so that I don't get to the 10.” It's like once the cup spills over, then you have to clean it up. But if you can just kind of lower the water level that's a lot more manageable.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: And that's what I'm constantly telling, like lawyers and law students who are like, “I don't have time to do this work.” 

Rhia: Yes.

Jordana: I'm like, “Trust me, you don't have time not to.”

Rhia: I know!

Kate: Yeah!

Jordana: You do not have time not to.

Kate: But most of us need to spill over before we- We have to learn that we can spill over because that's the other thing is I think so many people get through law school and they're still kind of motivated because you're still going to be a lawyer and the burnout doesn't necessarily hit you. I mean, plenty of people burn out in law school too. But you think, “Well, I've gotten this far. I've done all of this stuff. Like I can handle it. And then of course, when you do spill over, you shame yourself for not being able, quote unquote, to “handle it,” which is bull.

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: And I used to do this, it wasn't just with my work. I would do this with exercise too. Like I remember the thoughts used to go through my head, like, “I am a machine. I will just do more than other people are able or willing to do. And that's why I do better.” And I think I just like truly believed it was willpower. 

Kate: And pat yourself on the back about that.

Jordana: Yeah, totally.

Kate: Yeah.

Jordana: And then I remember I was listening to… It was Glennon Doyle's podcast, but I think she was quoting Brene Brown: Super overachievers feel like they're doing better because they're willing to dig deeper. But the problem is we're digging into ourselves. 

Kate and Rhia: Mmm.

Jordana: Eventually that debt is going to become due. And the further we dig, then like the longer it takes to repay that debt.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: When I teach self-compassion, there's three elements. So it's mindfulness, which is just acknowledging and validating our emotions without judging them. There is common humanity, which is recognizing that pain and suffering and shame are just universal feelings. Like they are inevitable aspects of the shared human experience and failure and mistakes. And then there's the self-kindness part. That's speaking to yourself. 

And the part that people actually grapple with the most is the common humanity. Because what they say, especially like my perfectionist clients, is like, “I recognize that everyone makes mistakes, but I shouldn't.”

Rhia: Yes.

Jordana: Or, “I recognize that this sounds impossible, but if I was really good enough and just worked hard enough, then I should be able to make it possible.” 

Kate: And I've seen these other people make it possible, so why shouldn't I be able to make it possible? Yeah.

Rhia: Constantly.

Jordana: Yeah. And until we get our brains around that actually I'm not a machine. I am a human. I am fallible. I have limitations and I need to honor those... For many people, they can't wrap their heads around that until they spill over. The unfortunate thing is that's so painful! So again, we get back to even if that happens, you can get back up, but how can we convince people to listen before that happens?!

Rhia: I always like to mention the burnout statistics to people, because I'm like, this is happening to somewhere around a third to a fifth of the workforce right now in the United States. You are not alone. There's nothing wrong with you. Just if you think your peers aren't going through it, it's because they're not talking to you about it. Other people feel shame.

Kate: Yep.

Rhia: It's not just you and I think people really need to hear that.

Kate: Yes! That’s what I needed! 

Rhia: A lot of this stuff is perpetuated by our culture. Perfectionism is encouraged by our culture. So then it makes sense that you got here.

Jordana: Oh my God, it's true with everything. And it's true with the anxiety. It's true with the shame. It's true with eating disorders. It's true with everyone. We all assume that we're the only ones who are faking it and we're uniquely broken and everyone else has it all together. 

Kate: Yep.

Jordana: And then that just makes us all feel like, that it just perpetuates the shame and imposter syndrome and insecurity. 

Rhia: Yes.

Jordana: And it also prevents any of us from feeling like actually accepted as we are because no one actually knows who we are. And we're like hiding these aspects of ourselves and judging ourselves. And it's just so unnecessary. 

Rhia: I just hope the more people that are being honest about their experiences and sharing their stories and also showing like, hey, you can be flawed, human, and also incredibly smart, incredibly successful, incredibly effective. 

Kate: Yes! 

Jordana: A big focus of my work is on mentorship. I feel like so many mentors, especially in the legal profession, they feel like they're most helpful if they inspire their mentees by projecting these perfect personas.

Kate: Right.

Jordana: And it's like, no, the best thing that you can do for them is tell them like all the mistakes you made in the stumbles and the stresses and everything-

Rhia: Yes.

Kate: Yes.

Jordana: -so that they can see that those things are compatible with being really successful. 

Kate: Yes!

Jordana: And it'll also then create the psychological safety for them to actually share with you what their fears and stresses and struggles are. Vulnerability begets vulnerability. Even among friends, it takes one friend being like, “I'm dealing with this,” for someone else to be able to say, “Oh my God, me too, and I haven't told anyone.”

How can we ever feel like someone supports us unconditionally unless they know all of the conditions that we already come with? And this constant armoring up that's even more so, I think, in the legal profession, promotes imposter syndrome, shame, but also isolation.

Rhia: Yes!

Jordana: And then prevents us from actually getting support when and where in the ways that we need it the most because no one even knows those parts of us.

Kate: Yeah, it's hard though. It's hard to take that step to just say it. I mean, I struggle even doing it to my husband or my friends. Like, I'll tell my husband days later, I'm like, “I was really not okay on Tuesday.” And he'll be like, “Why the fuck did you not say something when you weren't feeling okay?” And I'm like, “I just couldn't. I just couldn't.” 

And it's not that I don't trust him or that I don't feel supported by him by any means.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: Like, I’ve been my worst self in front of him a million times. But like, it's tough to just say it.

Rhia: It is. 

Jordana: Something that I've found for that and is finding ways to share  I'm not okay right now without going into the details. And so my husband now knows in the same way that like my parents eventually knew, like when I say, “I just don't feel well today.” And they'll say, “Physically or otherwise?” And I'm just like, “Just otherwise.” 

And that means, and I don't want to go into it, but it just means I'm struggling today. And then with my friends, I've developed this thing where I just will text them and be like, “I just need a mind hug.”

Kate: Awww!

Jordana: You sending me a hug from afar because when I'm feeling like that, I don't want to talk about it.

Rhia: It's again like practicing with baby steps until your mind starts seeing that as like a safer, a safer thing to do. It's the same thing as like turning off your computer. Eventually it's like, oh. Nothing exploded. I actually got some comfort. Weird. That felt good. Jordana: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: I got some love and I kind of feel good for getting something off my chest. And so eventually it gets easier, it gets less scary, it feels less like a threat.

Kate: Yeah, and oftentimes the other person will share too. 

Rhia: True.

Kate: And it's hard too, because I have been moving around as a military spouse. I haven't lived near my best friend in over a decade, in the same state even. So if I'm going to tell Larkin, my best friend, that something's going on with me, it takes the extra effort to reach out. Like we're not just hanging out every day so it doesn't come up organically. I have to start a conversation. 

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: Yeah. 

Kate: And that is where I struggle a lot and where I used to struggle. I've gotten better about it. Because I also, you know, you do that stupid thing where you're like, “Well, I don't want to bring her down.” And then that's where I turn it around to myself, is if this was Larkin and she was like, “I didn't wanna bother you,” what would I say to her? (Laughing) I would have been like, “You're bananas. What are you talking about? Bother me all the time and it's not a bother.”

Rhia: Right.

Jordana: My best friend from law school, Sopen and I, we send each other llama emojis. That's the signal that something’s- That's the bat signal that I need love. 

Rhia: That’s so cute!

Kate: I love that!

Jordana: And it came from it being hard to share. And like those times, and it was like, okay just send me a llama.

Kate: I love that, that’s a great idea.

Rhia: Yeah that’s cute.

Jordana: So this is actually, I was wondering when the first time I would ever talk about this would be... So I did psychedelic therapy for trauma and basically what it ends up, for at least my experience, was there was like a series of visits from different people during the treatment.

And at one point, Sopen showed up and she was with the llama and I just died. 

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: That is so adorable. 

Kate: I love that. 

Rhia: Your subconscious is like, “You know who I need right now? I need my best friend and I need the llama and I need them now.”

Kate: And the llama will be present.

Well, we are bumping up on our time, which I knew would happen. 

Rhia: Of course. Not surprised at all. 

Kate: But this has been a fucking amazing conversation. 

Rhia: It really has been.

Kate: So is there anything else, Jordana, that you would like to chat about before we sign off? Promote the business.

Rhia: Yeah, we want to hear where can people find you? 

Jordana: Well, I mean, I feel like we covered all of the meme things. I would just say to just reiterate to anyone, like, if this… the things that we've been talking about resonate with you and you think, “But I could never do that,”  just know that I was so far off the deep end, like, in terms of my self-talk and my drill sergeant, like, it was so scathing. I won't even say out loud the things it used to say to me in my head because I'm ashamed that I could be that cruel to anyone, even if it was myself. 

And so I truly believe that if I can internalize this, literally anyone can. And so I think we gave a lot of strategies for just like getting started, even if you don't think it's gonna help, and being willing to like surf that urge and take one baby step of faith, but then pay attention because then you can gather like evidence that it does help and the world doesn't explode. that then will help propel you forward. So I think that's what I, you know, just to leave people with. 

And if you want to find more from me, my website is JordanaConfino.com. You can subscribe to my blog there, which is Chronicles of Recovering Type A Plus Perfectionist. And I'm on LinkedIn. And I just want to say thank you, Kate and Rhia. This was so much fun! I wish I got to come hang out with you guys every week, but you know, we'll find other excuses to do this again soon.

Kate: We’ll have you back!

Rhia: Yes, I'd love that. Thank you so much for joining us. It was so fun to nerd out with you. I love just talking to people whose brain works similarly to mine. And it's so fun to talk to other lawyers who are tackling this. I think it's really, really important. So thank you for your time. Thank you for all of your insight and expertise. And thank you for the work you're doing in the industry.

Outro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by growlforce. Thanks for listening.