Kate Bridal: You get to check a box and you’re like, “Ohhh, fuck yes.”

Josey Hoff: (In an excited whisper) I love checking a box! (Kate laughs.) There’s something so satisfying about a handwritten note and getting to like cross it off.

Kate: Ooof. Oh yeah, I still hand-write my to-do lists, I have one next to me right now.

Josey: (Laughing) Yeah, same!

Kate: And I’ve- I’ve had like a very productive day so I’ve been just like checking boxes like crazy, yeah. It’s like my porn.

(Josey laughs)

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law.

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 15

Kate: Honey, honey.

Josey: Yes, darling?

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

Josey: Well, interesting that you ask, um…

(Both laugh)

Kate: We'll talk about that later. 

Josey: Okay, that's fair. 

Kate: Little teaser.

Josey: Yeah, that's fair. I do. 

Kate: Fantastic. Welcome back, season two!

Josey: I know. Look at us. 

Kate: Great.

Josey: We made it past the break. 

Kate: Look at us go. We did it.

Josey: How was your break? 

Kate: It was good. I, you know, went to Uruguay, South America with my family for a couple of weeks. That's where my mom is from originally, and I haven't been since I was 15. So it was really great. 

Josey: Oh yeah.

Kate: And my sister and her husband and my nephews were there, and my husband got to go with us. And it was really amazing to get to kind of just be with them and learn more about where she grew up.

Yeah, and it was a nice kind of forced- Because obviously I was struggling with, like.. (Both laugh) not being productive over the break. 

Josey: You? Noooo. 

Kate: I know!

Josey: Not my sweet three.

Kate: I was like, I have to force myself… (Both laugh) I have to force myself to like do something all the time or like make personal content or something, which I did a little bit of. 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: But like when you're there, especially with a couple of little kids, you're like, your focus is just taken up the whole time.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And you just have to be in the moment all the time. And that's what I did.

Josey: Nothing like a kid to keep you in the moment.

Kate: Yeah, it was a good reset. I also got to do a little like contract work and do some short, silly videos and get paid for it. That was fun.

Josey: Yeah, I know it was fun to see some of your like independent videos again on social media. I was excited about that. 

Kate: Thank you.

Josey: I've missed those.

Kate: How about you?

Josey: My break… It was good. It was busy. I just spent a lot of time with family, which is great, but you know, it's always nice to get back to your routine afterwards. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: I definitely feel like I have holiday burnout. If you know what I mean, like I, it might be a thing, but… I feel like I'm always in a little bit of a funk when I come back after the holidays, as far as becoming productive again and being able to focus. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: And I just feel really tired. I think family time is great, but it's always so busy that you don't really get a chance to decompress as much, so....

Kate: Totally. And then you enter the year of January, and... 

(Kate laughs)

Josey: I know.

Kate: Yeah, there's always so much to do at the beginning of the year. 

Josey: Yeah, it's been so busy. 

Kate: And you get in your own stupid head about like, “Should I make a resolution? Should I like- This is the year I'm going to…” A,B,C, and then shame yourself about that fun stuff.

Josey: I thought about it, but then my therapist encouraged me not to. (Kate laughs) She's like, “I don't think you need something else to shame yourself for.” (Both laugh.) And I was like, “You are right.”

Kate: Your therapist is wise.

Josey: Yep.

Kate: Love your therapist.

Josey: We do, we do.

Kate: Yeah, no, I don't do resolutions really. It's just more of like, “Oh, this year I might want to…” or like, “Here's what I would like to do with, you know, the podcast or whatever this year.” But I agree that like, it's just too easy to make yourself feel bad about it and burn yourself out that way. 

Josey: Yeah, so I'm not doing that. I'm just trying to do like a daily goal thing or weekly.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Josey: Something that seems slightly more attainable. 

Kate: As we learned from one of our amazing guests.

Josey: (Coyly) Yeah, yes. I don't remember who, but-

Kate: Mm, yeah, mysterious. (Kate laughs) Well, shall we stop beating around the bush and get to the things that we've been hinting at?

Josey: We're stalling, we're stalling. I think that we should. 

Kate: All right. Do you wanna say it?

Josey: Sure. I will say it, since I'm doing it. 

Kate: You break the news.

Josey: Break the news. Earth-shattering, people. So Kate and I talked about this in December. I realized that with added family responsibilities and work responsibilities that now just isn't the right time for me to continue doing a side passion project like this. 

And I couldn't continue to give like the best of myself to these conversations and these interviews. And I think not only does the podcast deserve to have someone that's present more of the time, but also our guests. We have on incredible guests and they deserve to have someone there that's all in on it and ready to go. 

So as hard as it is to leave Kate and our baby, who's gonna be one pretty soon. (Kate laughs) The inception date is coming up-

Kate: In three days!

Josey: I know!

Kate: The day we came up with it is in three days. Yeah, we didn't actually start it until later, but yeah.

Josey: No, but its inception-

Kate: (Laughing) The night it was conceived-

Josey: (Laughing) The night it was conceived.

Kate: -a drunken night in San Francisco. 

Josey: Exactly, it'll do it. But yeah, it just isn't the time for me to…

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: -to do this and I, as a result, am going to be phasing out over the next few months and will effectively step back in May, end of May.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: And a replacement will be coming in…

Kate: Yes. Before we announce the replacement, I do want to say… Which I mean, like, it's like not going to be a mystery at all by the time this comes out, (Both laugh) I don't even know why I'm playing coy. She deserves some fanfare. I feel like we should build the suspense.

Josey: Exactly.

Kate: In case anyone just like downloaded- Maybe no one's been, someone hasn't been looking and they just, this just downloaded to their phone and then showed up and they haven't read the description.

Josey: Yeah, and if you don't end up on social media, then you haven't seen… Yeah.

Kate: But first I do want to say like, I appreciate the fact and I'm really proud of you for the fact that you recognize that you needed to step away. I could tell when we had the conversation how hard it was for you.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: So I just really think that it's so great and is a testament to how far you've come in your burnout journey that you were able to take that step and you were able to do that hard thing and say no to something that you knew was not going to keep working for you.

 And so as absolutely gutted as I am to have you go, because I think that you've been- it's been not only just so much fun to work with you, but I do truly think that you've provided so many amazing insights and that your perspective is really valuable… I'm glad that you're doing it and I just, I support you 100%. Wherever you go, whatever you do, always forever. 

And I'm not going to cry right now!

Josey: (Simultanously) I will not cry on this episode, Kate! God damn it! (Both laugh) I mean, thank you. Thank you for that. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Thank you for doing this with me. It's been the best, and…

Kate: Well yeah, thank you for doing- You know, getting it off the ground with me.

Josey: People, if you have the chance to work with your friend, I highly recommend it. (Kate laughs.) Because it can be very, very fulfilling. So I love you.

Kate: I love you too.

Josey: I'm excited to see where you take this with the new host. You know, I'm always gonna be around supporting it. 

Kate: Yes, and you, yes, you have said you'll come back, you'll pop back once in a while.  

Josey: Yeah, you'll see me again. 

Kate: But yeah, with that…

Josey: Drum roll.

Kate: (Imitating a trumpet) Da-da-da-da! My new co-host, I am so excited to announce because she was the person on that episode that we were hinting at earlier who told us to do small manageable things, because she is an anti-burnout coach as well as an ex-biglaw attorney which makes her the most perfect fit for this ever. Plus we get along with her. 

Josey: Yes.

Kate: She holds the record for the longest recording we have ever done with a guest. Even Henry was edged out by her. (Josey laughs) It is Rhia Batchelder who is here with us today. 

(Josey cheers and claps.)

Rhia Batchelder: Hello, everybody!

Kate: Hi Rhia!

Rhia: Thank you for having me back. I just have to say I am so fucking excited. Am I allowed to say “fucking?” 

Kate: Oh, fuck yeah. 

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: Okay, great.

Josey: Oh yeah.

Kate: It’s a pirate podcast, yeah.

Rhia: Amazing. I'm glad that we're all on the same page there. I am so fucking excited to get to do this. It really has been such an honor just getting to know you all and I'm really excited for this season. So thank you both for thinking of me. Thank you for bringing me on. I cannot wait to see what we get into.

Josey: There is no one more perfect to take my place than Rhia. When Kate and I had this conversation and we're like, who would be my replacement? Instantly, almost at the same time, we said, “Rhia.” And it was just a no-brainer.

Rhia: Truly an honor, I am so excited.

Kate: Well, and I'm excited too, because… So Josey and I didn't actually even know each other that well when we started the podcast, which is why we did the last episode, the little bonus newlywed game episode last season. Because we were like, “Oh, let's see how well we know each other now that we've done a season of the podcast together.” But I'm excited to get to know you, Rhia, and like…Maybe we'll have to do another newlywed game at some point with you and me.

Rhia: Yes.

Kate: We'll bring Larkin back in.

Rhia: I agree. I know, there's so much to talk about. I feel like there's a lot to dig our hands into, so I cannot wait.

Kate: And we're gonna do more current event stuff, hopefully, this season. I don't know how current we'll keep it. That will depend on my editing speed. (Kate and Josey laugh) How current the events are when the episode comes out versus when we're talking about them.

Rhia: Right. 

Kate: I'll do my best.

Rhia: In or around a month from when you listen, it’s current enough, in my opinion. 

Kate: In the zone.

Josey: Agreed.

Rhia: And we're practicing what we preach in terms of not pushing ourselves way too hard and editing things like crazy. This is a podcast that is anti-burnout. So…

Kate: Correct. 

Josey: Exactly.

Kate: It’s the perfect excuse. It's maybe the best exercise I could have done for myself and like treating my own burnout habits, because I was like, “Well, I wanna talk about it!” And then immediately launched into it in a way that was like 100% could have burned me out. And just in talking to you and other guests and having these conversations, I've recognized that so much more.

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: To the point where over this break, as I said, it was hard for me to sit and not do anything to do with the podcast. And thank God I had Josey. I'm much better at doing things for other people than I am for doing them just for myself. And so I was like, I can't harass Josey about the podcast. I need to give her a break, which means I have to take a break. Apart from seducing Rhea into being my cohost, I was like, I’m not- (All laugh.) 

And sitting and how uncomfortable I was with that was a learning experience for me and a good exercise in learning that I can get through that.

Rhia: Oh, absolutely. And you're not alone, just so you know. I think that, especially for women, guilt around rest is still such an extremely prevalent issue. I actually just taught like a session of my free master class this morning and that was one of the main things- or one of the things that we talked about. 

If you cannot let yourself rest without criticizing yourself, planning something, running a mental to-do list, you're not going to be able to bounce back the way that you want to. And actually, I don't know, Kate, if you've ever done a compromise with yourself. If I'm feeling that way, I'll do a puzzle or something that's kind of in between. 

Kate: Oooh, I do love a puzzle.

Rhia: Like, I'm doing something.

Josey: Okay, Connections. The New York Times word connection app thing. 

Kate: Yep.

Josey: Wordle, and then this other game, Connections, and they’re short little things that you can do. I do those on days when I'm trying to rest. 

Kate: Yep. I do all of the New York Times games every single night, including the crossword. 

Rhia: I love the crossword.

Kate: I mean, Wednesday onward I turn on autocheck, but…

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: I cheat.

Rhia: I've done all the crosswords for the last, I think, eight years or something psychotic, because I love them too. And I will just-

Kate: Well, and you get better at them.

Rhia: Yeah, you do. 

Kate: Because you learn like the clues that they reuse and like the little hints that they put in.

Josey: Oh, yeah.

Rhia: In real life, sometimes someone will say something and I'm like, “That's a common New York Times crossword answer.” (Kate and Josey laugh.) So doing something like a little more active can help. Just ease yourself into that space. Like that's where I had to start. At first I couldn't do it either. It just was so unnatural. It felt almost like scary.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Well, and now I've done this thing to myself that was actually really stupid, which is… So I don't know if either of you experience this. Everyone I say this to, I don't feel like they quite relate. But when I'm really anxious, I have issues of choosing something to watch or something to listen to because I'll look through shows and everything spikes my anxiety for some reason.

Rhia: Woooah.

Kate: And it's even shows that don't usually, it's just like, “Oh, thinking about watching The Simpsons makes me anxious.”

Josey: Interesting.

Kate: There's no rhyme or reason to it, it's just there's one show that will stand out to me that I'm like, “This is what I can watch right now without feeling horrible.” (Kate laughs) Um, and I don't know, I call it Watch Anxiety. 

Josey: Repeat shows.

Kate: Yeah. But so that show for me is- For a lot of people, I feel like it's The Office, right? It's like your comfort show. For me it’s Hannibal. (Kate laughs) And I don't know why.

I don't know if it's just I need something so ridiculous that's gonna occupy my brain to the point where I'm like, wait, how did he possibly do that in one night? There's no way. (Josey and Rhia laugh.) And then I start thinking through the timelines. ‘Cause it's not… (Laughs) It's not a bad show. It's like good-adjacent. It's like almost really good. There are a lot of plot holes and like weird timelines. And so I'm like, occupied by that. And it's lik, you know, all sorts of terrible things happening to all the characters all the time, so I'm like, “Well, at least that's not going on.”

(Rhia laughs)

But then I made the mistake of making a video about it, like about Hannibal using the DENNIS System from Always Sunny on Will. And it did well on TikTok. And so then it inspired me to make a bunch of videos about Hannibal. But now I'm like too anxious to keep watching Hannibal because all it makes me think about is the content that I have to make.

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: Oh no, Hannibal became a w- 

Josey: Noooooo, you ruined it for yourself!

Rhia: That’s terrible!

Kate: And I, you know, as I was initially doing it, I was like, “Maybe this is a bad idea.” And then I did it anyway. 

Rhia: Yep.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: But it's also really, really fun. I'm having a ton of fun doing it. So I'm committed. I'll be able to watch it again, but.

Rhia: Right. But now you're starting to take notes while it's happening. Like, OK, here's my thing. 

Kate: Yeah. Exactly. That's the thing is I'm like, well, I can't just watch it in bed at night because I'll just be on my phone like writing down all my ideas.

Josey: Oh, that’s terrible.

Rhia: Yeah, that's a weird part of entrepreneurship and content creation itself that I did not think through, is how frequently that happens to me. I'm talking to someone, they're talking about something that's stressing them out, and I'm like… (All laugh) Taking some notes, I don't know, just... 

Kate: The mental notes are stacking.

Rhia: The mental notes are stacking. And then I'm like, “Just relax, like enjoy your time.”

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: But when you're thinking about like, yeah, how can I talk about these big ideas or Hannibal on the other hand of things, which... 

(Rhia and Kate laugh.)

Kate: Or these not very big ideas from a show that came out 15 years ago, or no 10 years ago.

Rhia: Well, I mean... It's not just about the show though. It's like your funny interpretation of like these… It is very creative. 

Josey: Mmhmm.

Rhia: But it can be really hard to turn your brain off. And I think, yeah, one thing with entrepreneurship I've noticed is just the tendency to go there. And so I, I try to stop myself from writing everything down. But sometimes I still will like… I'll be going to sleep at night and I have my eye mask on and then I think of an idea for a post and I'm just like…

Kate: Ah, shit.

Rhia: If I don't write this down, it's just gonna keep writing in my head.

Kate: Yep.

Rhia: So I just whip out my notes app and just like jot it down and then I'm like, okay, get out, goodbye, sleep meditation on.

Kate: That's- I do the exact same thing.

Josey: The number of notes I have to delete in the morning when I wake up and I'm like, that is not a good idea actually. (Kate and Rhia laugh.) That is… No, we will not be doing this, Awake Josey. 

Kate: Please start sending them to me. I wanna know what they are.

Josey: I'm going to, I think it'd be a great series because I think… The other night I wrote down something that, something, it was, I woke up the next morning and I looked at it and I was like, are you okay? Are we okay? Like, I don't know because it was just so far-fetched and something I would never do.

Rhia: What was it?

Josey: I think it was live stream on Instagram. 

Rhia: Oh, damn.

Josey: And I don’t know what about. (Kate laughs.) I don't think I had anything that it was going to be about. I think I just was like…

Kate: You're just like, I'm gonna do it.

Rhia: Just go live.

Josey: I should try this.

Kate: You’re like, “This seems like me.” 

Josey: (Laughing) I know!

Kate: “Talking by myself for an extended period of time.” 

Rhia: No, going live is the most...

Kate: I've never done it.

Rhia: Oh, it's, it's hard. It's tough.

Kate: I bet. 

Rhia: If you ever want to go livem Josey, I will do it with you because it's easier with two people than it is by yourself. 

Kate: Yeah, because having someone to fill the silence between comments, like that's the thing. Not to bring up Colin Hanks again... I mean, yes to bring up Colin Hanks all the time. (Rhia and Josey laugh) But I, when Hanks Kerchief's, his like handkerchief business closed down, he did like a wake for it on Instagram where he like drank whiskey and was like RIP to this business that I had. And I attended a little bit of it. And you know, he's like, I love looking at him… (Rhia snorts) And he's a lovely charismatic man, but like it was awkward. You're like.

Rhia: Yeah, they mostly are. They'll just be like staring at the screen and like reading comments 

Kate: Mmhmm. 

Josey: (Laughing) And I’m not a fast reader so I'd be like halfway through and I'd be like wait go back! That's another reason I was bad on the LSAT. I can't read quickly.

Rhia: Mmm.

Kate: Ohhh.

Rhia: The day that I took the LSAT, it was like… I can't even tell you how many practice tests I took. I did a lot. On the day itself, I didn't get through like multiple sections. And I left being like, “I bombed it.” (Kate gasps.) “I absolutely bombed that. I've never once not completed all the questions.” I think I left like five or six undone. I just was convinced that I completely bombed it after six months of studying. 

They wouldn't let you bring a phone. I was in New York City. And so my friend knew to stand outside of the testing center with my phone. 

Kate: Awww!

Rhia: She was just waiting there for me. And I came out and I was like, “I bombed it.” And she's like, “Our margarita place is over there, let's go.” 

Kate: Excellent friendship.

Rhia: I didn’t bomb it, though.

Kate: I thought I bombed the multiple choice part of the bar. I wasn't as intense about the LSAT, but the bar I was way intense about, and I was doing practice tests every single day. I was studying as a full-time job. And multiple choice was always pretty good for me. Like I was solid on it.

And I walked out of the first day of the bar exam after the essays feeling pretty freaking solid. And I was like ready to just feel like I nailed it and feel so relieved and be done with the bar exam. And I just, I swear to God, I looked at that test and I was like… I have never seen any of these questions about any of these laws before in my life. I don't know what they're talking about. 

Josey: Oh my gosh.

Kate: And I felt like I absolutely bombed. I still finished early. (Laughing) And yeah, I just felt like shit leaving the last day. And I was like, ready to- I had to like pump up music, ready to play in the car on the way home. And I was like, I don't even wanna listen to this. I was convinced I failed, but I didn't. 

Josey: I knew I did. I knew I did really badly on the LSAT. Because I remember like hearing the noise. I can't remember what exactly it was from, but some event, because it was right around the insurrection. And I don’t remember if it was that day exactly, but we had several then like waves of protests of people that would come in.

And I remember hearing the noise outside and I was like, this is…It's gonna be a problem, isn't it? 

Rhia: I can’t even imagine, like that was such a huge ruckus!

Josey: Then I just, that night I went and I sat on a bench by the White House and I was like, “You. You screwed me.”

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Rhia: You ruined my LSAT experience. 

Josey: Yeah, it was my LSAT that was the big thing here.

Rhia: I am wondering if we could just like get those specific logic games to do for fun? 

Josey: Khan Academy, I think, has practice ones. 

Rhia: Making a little note for myself…

Kate: Ooh, yeah, just keep taking practice LSATs.

(Kate and Rhia laugh.)

Rhia: I wish everyone was required to take more logical reasoning because just… the time on the internet would be a lot easier if so. 

(Kate laughs.) 

Josey: Yeah.

Rhia: One of my biggest pet peeves is logical fallacies.

Josey: Same! See, I knew I picked her to replace me for a reason! I knew! I knew what I was doing.

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: We are definitely nerds in a lot of the same ways. And in my comments section, it is just constant. And I have to really reel myself in from being a snarky little nerdy lawyer. (Kate laughs.)  I mean, it's like that age old joke where you're like, “I really like oranges.” And people are like, “So you hate apples? Are you an apple hater?” (Josey laughs.) “Are you saying apples deserve to die? What kind of person are you?” It's like…

Josey: Correlation does not equal causation. Thank you.

Kate: Exactly. 

Rhia: One hundred percent.

Kate: I cannot tell you how terrified I am for the day that someone comments on one of my Hannibal videos and is like, “So you'd be fine being married to a serial killer and you'd actually like help him kill people?” And I'm gonna be like, “Oviously not, it's a fucking joke.” Like, but it's funnier if I know.

Rhia: Oh it’s gonna come. Yeah. Yesterday I posted about the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, because it would have been the 51st anniversary.

Kate: RIP.

Rhia: I posted about it because, you know, the intersection between reproductive freedom and stress is very prominent. The impact of childbearing on women still like, still each child has a significant impact on the woman's ability to earn over the rest of her life, her financial trajectory. It is still true that that's happening, which is really frustrating, because typically when a man becomes a parent, it is the opposite actually. His financial trajectory increases.

Kate: Really?

Rhia: And there is data showing that he is seen as more of a leader.

Josey: Yeah.

Rhia: Whereas the woman is immediately seen as more distracted, less able to manage, and less viable choice for promotions.

Josey: And more stable, men are seen as more stable as soon as they have it, as where women are seen as less stable because of the emotions that come with being a mother.

Rhia: Mmhmm. 100%. Yeah, you're completely right. But anyways, I just posted about it because I am obviously very passionate about this topic. 

Kate: Yes.

Rhia: And I got like seven comments calling me a murder-lover and saying like, “This has nothing to do with burnout.” People just get so mad about me talking about whatever the hell I want on the page where I post free tips for people every single day for free. For free. It is shocking to me.

Josey: Also, are you contracted into only speaking about burnout on your personal page? Because I don't think so, so.

Rhia: Right, 100%. And it's just like, this is my platform. I would never, I could never imagine going to someone's comments and be like, “This isn't exactly what I wanna see. So I'm gonna start insulting you.” But people will, so…

Kate: Oh yeah.

Rhia: (Laughing) Get ready for it, Kate. That was my conclusion. 

Kate: Well, and in this case, it's so absurd, but I'm like, I'm not really that afraid. 

Josey: No.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: So as we have said, we're going to endeavor to do some more current event stuff. So in that spirit, again, semi-current… (Laughs.) We want to talk about Jo Koy at the Golden Globes and the Barbie comment.

Rhia: We want to talk about Jo. When I saw his monologue, Grata's face… It immediately just resonated with me. Those of you who know a little bit about me know that I mostly I work with high achievers on reducing stress, preventing burnout and finding more fulfillment in their careers. 

But I work with a lot of women and one of the major stressors that women experience in the workplace is that feeling that we have to work eight times harder wear the exact right outfit, the exact right amount of makeup, the exact right tone of voice, the exact right level of assertiveness, the exact right level of confidence. And we still are not taken as seriously as male counterparts, no matter what we do. And it just sets women up to be more stressed in the workplace and outside of the workplace. 

And you see this in the data, because I'm always gonna bring that in, is like women are burning out at 10, 15, 20% higher rates than men, depending on the industry. And when I saw Jo’s comment reducing, you know, the highest grossing film of 2023 to a movie about a doll with plastic boobies… It just felt like we've all been there, right?

Kate: That's exactly what it was. I was like, is it the most offensive comment I've ever heard? No, of course not. 

Josey: No.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: It's not anywhere near as terrible as it could be, but it's just the exact type of shit that women have been expected to sit there and go “hardy har har” at in the office for like decades and decades.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: And it's just exhaust- Like, come on! You couldn't think of anything more intelligent to say about this groundbreaking,and what I would argue is also a really excellent film, like that's all you had to say about it? Like come on.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Rhia: Right, right. Because it centers around like dolls, you can't recognize that there was an extremely poignant societal commentary running throughout the entire movie that almost every single woman resonated with? 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: I agree.

Josey: It's so, and it goes so hand in hand, I felt like, with the infamous, you know, speech in the movie by America's character. She talks about this, right? She talks about all the extra things that we as women have to constantly be trying to balance, and then being reduced, you know? Being reduced to the…as Barbie is doing, being reduced to this, being reduced to that, you know, it's constantly... 

You are trying so hard to check all these boxes in the perfect way just to get a seat at the table most of the time. And then to have that time when you get to have your say or you get that seat at the table reduced to a sexist joke, even if it wasn't the worst joke, this was a historic moment and it was made into a joke where a female directed, a female starring movie was a sexist joke again. 

Rhia: Right.

Josey: It felt very full circle.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: In the worst way possible.

Rhia: Incredibly ironic. When you're talking about a movie that's trying to address patriarchy head on, and your commentary is this extraordinarily reductive comment about, again, our physical appearance. Not even just reductive but reducing the entire concept down to boobs.

Kate: Yeah. Well, and it was like comparing it to Oppenheimer. 

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: That was the other thing that got me was it was like, he says all this stuff about what Oppenheimer is and then the joke is, “And Barbie is also up here, but why? Because it's just about this.” Like, it's so... Ugh.

Josey: Completely agree. 

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: I think you're absolutely right. I think that is what really sent it to where it went. You uplift the male-dominant one while you reduce the female in the same sentence. 

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: Like it was such a stark contrast that I feel like he just shot himself in, but twice. Like I don't, I don't even know.

Rhia: I know. I've seen backlash from people being like, “This isn't a big deal.” And I think that those people, what they are understanding is how this seeps into… it's everywhere. It's culture, it's our lives, it's our work environments.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: I had this situation happen to me when I was a summer associate, and I was sitting at a table with my peers. 

I was at a really highly prestigious law firm. I was talking about this new case I got brought on to and how exciting it was and, you know, sharing that with the table. And someone who went to my law school who only very tangentially knew me, like he did not know me at all, was like, “Well, yeah, because you're hot.” In front of a table of 14 of my colleagues.

(Rhia laughs.)

You know? Like how offensive. I went to a top five law school and I'm sitting here at the number two law firm in the country with you…

Kate: Yeah!

Rhia: And you're going to reduce me, in front of my colleagues, to my appearance. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: I honestly didn't say anything in the moment and it's something I think about a lot. ‘Cause I was so shocked. But those moments like perpetuate, perpetually happened to you, especially in male dominated industries.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: And it's not funny. I think I giggled in that moment cause that's what I was expected to do. 

Kate: I'm sure you did. Ugh,that's so fucked up, I'm so sorry that happened. I mean, like, yeah, it's happened so much, just so many women, but like...

Josey: Yeah, I've had the same thing happen. 

Kate: Yep.

Josey: It comes back to burnout in my mind because when I look at my entire career and the sexist comments that have been said, it's about choosing my battles a lot of the time. 

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: Oh yeah.

Josey: It's about, at one point this went to a certain level that it's just not acceptable, and I fight that battle. I've said this a couple of times to men lately in conversations I've had where they're like, “Why don't you just fight back? You know, because sexist and that's terrible and fight back.” And it's like, that's not it. And that's not being my ally either. That's what, and I genuinely think that is what they're trying to do, which is wonderful. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: But we can't fight every battle. 

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: I still have to make an income. I still need to get through the day. I still need to have some of my sanity. And I'm already thinking about five times as many things as my male colleague is thinking, in the same exact position, because of all the things I have to consider every day. So when something small in sexist comes up, I'm probably gonna ignore it.

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: Well, it's usually out of nowhere! You're not prepared! 

Josey: Yeah.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: The pithy response isn't in your back pocket. And it'll happen to you like in these moments where it's so blindsiding that all you can do for a second is just be like… (pause, stuttering) And then other people are laughing, so then you laugh and then you're like…It takes you a minute to just process that it even happened to you-

Josey: Mmhmm.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: -because in certain circumstances, it's just so shocking. And sometimes it comes from a person that you don't expect it to come from. 

Rhia: Yes!

Josey: Mmhmm.

Kate: Your brain turns off for a second because you're just so baffled and surprised.

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah, and if other people around you seem fine with it, then you also get into this mindset of like, okay, wait, I need to think about this. Other people were fine. Am I…?

Kate: Am I overreacting?

Josey: -this, that, or the other? By the time you've done all that, trying to figure out how to respond and get over the shock…

Kate: It’s done.

Rhia: Yep. A hundred percent.

Kate: (Laughing) Yeah, you're not going to bring it- circle back five minutes later.

Josey: And you're tired! Like in that meeting at the end of the day where I've done all of these other things and I'm fucking tired and wanna be done with the day and someone says something like that, I'm not gonna be like, “Let me extend my day so I can tell you why that's not okay.”

Rhia: And they're probably not going to listen to you if they're one of the people who are going to say those things. I am with you, Josey, lik… Self-advocacy has limits, and understanding which situations it's important to do in- For example, if your manager or someone, a coworker that you're frequently seeing is consistently making comments to you and like, you need to set boundaries, probably worth the stress and the emotional expenditure that you have to put in.

Josey: Yes.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: Versus… They're not gonna hear you. What's the point? 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: And there's a safety consideration of a certain, in certain circumstances.

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: In most circumstances really, cause you never know what man's gonna snap and murder you. It's part of the fun of being a woman. 

Rhia: Part of the fun!

Kate: But, but you know, the guy who just followed me off the bus and is following me and cat-calling me, am I gonna turn around and be like, “Hey, go fuck yourself”? Like, no, I don't feel like dying today. 

Josey: No.

Rhia: Hundred percent. I sometimes am overly sassy in those moments. This guy was like, drove by me. I was on a walk. He started yelling profane and inappropriate things out the window. I gave him a middle finger and said, “Go fuck yourself,” really loud. And he slammed his car in the middle of the street and started acting like he was gonna follow me around. And I ended up sprinting and sobbing to my house and it became a way more stressful situation than it needed to be, so I'm with you. 

I don't know if y'all have read Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Amelia and Emily Nagoski… It is one of my favorite books on burnout. It is just so excellent, and they actually talk about this a lot as well, like how patriarchy is a stressor in part because of that, like the fact that we have to walk around with vigilance…

Kate: Mmhmm.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Rhia:  … and then just make these choices about what you can say and what you have to swallow. Because they mention, you know, it's stressful when someone's catcalling you.

Kate: Yeah, it is.

Josey: Yes.

Rhia:  Or, you know, following you or whatever it is. And a natural resolution for that stress, it would be screaming at someone, would be like being able to get that out and express yourself. And we can't. And then so we live with that stress. And it does wear on you and it's significant. 

Kate: Yeah. But I was encouraged, I will say, going back to the Golden Globes, by the fact that it just fell completely flat and that everyone in that audience was basically like, “No.” Though I am curious if he had been crushing the rest of the set, what the reaction would have been.

Rhia: Right.

Kate: Because comedy is such a momentum-driven thing.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: But it is encouraging in how far I feel like we've come that it didn't land and that became the story was how insensitive it was.

Rhia: Right, I agree. And the same thing today. So for those of you listening, today, the day that we are recording, is actually the day that Oscar Noms came out. And Greta and Margot were both snubbed.

Kate: I cannot… Cannot believe it.

Rhia: Ken gets two nominations, which is something. And again, I believe Barbie was the highest grossing film ever made by a female director…

Josey: By female director, yeah, it is. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: So to be snubbed for bus director at the Oscars is absolutely wild. And the same thing, Kate, like I am seeing, “Patriarchy strikes again.” 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rhia: And the one guy, Ryan Gosling, got a best supporting actor nom, and I think that I'm Just Ken Song again got nominated…

Kate: Yes. Not gonna lie, I'm just Ken's hilarious, and Ryan Gosling was…

Rhia: Yeah!

Kate: Fantastic. But like… I could not believe that Margot Robbie didn't get nominated, because the whole time I was watching that thing, and I've watched it five times now, I have been like… She is so- I mean, Margot Robbie's spectacular in everything that she does.

But she has such a light touch to it. She doesn't overplay a single moment. And I'm an acting nerd. (Josey laughs.) But it's hard. Even when she is being perfect stereotypical Barbie at the beginning, she's so subtle, she's so good. Ryan Gosling was hilarious. He was not subtle. I don't think he had to be. I don't think that was the assignment. 

And he was clearly a doll that's being played with by a little girl who doesn't know how men are. 

Rhia: (Laughing) Uh huh.

Kate: So he's just fussy and weird and I thought that he brought that through really well, which is a complex thing to communicate. But I was just like, how in the fuck did Margot Robbie not get nominated? It’s also absolutely appalling that Greta Gerwig did not get nominated, I can’t believe that.

Josey: The Greta part is what blows my mind because the intricacies of this film…

Kate: And it was her brainchild too!

Josey: Yeah, it was that, it was the highest grossing film by a female director ever. I mean, it was just all of these things. So for her not to get nominated is mind-blowing to me. 

Rhia: Yeah.

Josey: But I think too, like in this conversation, it's not about Ken or Ryan Gosling doesn’t deserve his nominations, that’s not the point. 

Kate: Right, of course.

Josey: And again, it kind of comes back- because that's how they'll spin it, right?

Kate: Yep.

Josey: It's like this, you know, women didn't get it so now they're mad that men got it. No, it's not. 

Kate: Which is why I even felt the need to hedge, right? Like I was already…

Josey: Exactly. 

Kate: Kate: Like, “Oh I have to defend, make sure…”

Josey: That's not what this is about. 

Rhia: Right.

Josey: And for it to come after it was reduced to a plastic doll with big boobies and then for not to get nominated, or the women to not get nominated, is just so, it felt like doubling down.

Rhia: Yeah. It's really demonstrative of like this feeling that I think is like really ripe right now of leadership, oir governing bodies, they're not catching up to us. They're not understanding where we are as a society and where we're looking to go and holding on to these like biases that, implicit or overt, really run the way that people view everything, including this movie that was, to your point, I agree, incredibly subtle and complex. 

The fact that it wasn't kitschy and it came out with such an emotional like, lesson, and it felt so touching and relatable is shocking because it was a film about dolls. It could have been silly, and there were silly fun moments but overall it was enormously powerful. And the fact that Greta and Margot- because you know in interviews you just also hear them talking about how they ideate together and like share ideas and work together- accomplished is something huge to recognize and it's just so frustrating.

Kate: Yeah, and I am happy America Ferrara was nominated.

Josey: And America. Yeah.

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: She was nominated for best supporting actress. So like, shout out to her. She was great as well. 

Josey: I felt like America's speech murdered me. I felt like everything that I feel on a day-to-day basis, the constant back and forth I have in my mind about how to be one thing and not the other, and how to balance all the stuff, how to be a good partner, how to be a good daughter, how to be all of these things while still being cutthroat and successful in my career as the men are.

Kate: And a bad bitch. 

Josey: At the end of every day, I'm just like overwhelmed at the thought of having to do it again. And I think that's why for me, it just encapsulated that daily struggle that it is to be a woman. It put words to, I think it put words to what you feel on a day-to-day basis as a woman, at least for me.

Rhia: Yeah.

Kate: No, it does for sure. 

Rhia: I agree. As we've mentioned with the swallowing our tongue in all of these moments, it's like, it's often not articulated. And we know it. 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: And maybe we say it over like drinks with your girlfriends or in these like more private women centered moments. But to have it so stated so publicly, I think was what also was really powerful for me. 

Josey: Mmhmm.

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: It was also like really motivating cause that's a lot about a big reason why I'm passionate about burnout because it's this culture. It's this culture that is driving, especially the crisis for women. And I am just incredibly passionate about working to rectify that, which is like a million question marks about how we actually dismantle this for good. But I loved that speech, too, because I just felt like it was so perfectly said. And I think it needs to be said out loud.

Kate: So we're gonna get them all on the podcast, right? 

(Kate laughs)

Rhia: (Laughing) Welcome on! Yeah I definitely went in- I used to be like a hundred girl-boss. Like, “We can do anything!” And I think I knew there was discrimination, but I just think I just didn’t know know, and part of that is being, you know like a white woman who did get a lot of privilege. And I had a lot of unpacking to do around, like, how I felt and how I was going to be treated and how my friends are going to be treated and how things are, these things really do impact us, like emotionally, physically, every single day. 

Kate: Absolutely.

Well, this has been, as expected, an awesome conversation. I'm so excited that we all got to talk and we'll probably do more episodes with the three of us, just the three of us throughout the season, and then maybe some one-on-ones, who knows? I should just ship you two off to do one once in a while and just like sit out. Just be like, “Deliver me the goods and I'll edit it.” That'd be interesting. Yeah.

Josey: That would be very interesting. (Laughing) We could do live logic games.

(Kate gasps)

Kate: Oh, that's the LinkedIn Live! (Laughing) Josey and Rhia doing logic games together! (Josey laughs) All right, well stay tuned for the Linked-

Rhia: Stay tuned for the nerdiest podcast you've ever heard in your entire life. It would be Josie and I talking about the law. I feel like that would be fun. 

Kate: Oh yeah!

Josey: That's, that would be fun. 

Kate: That'll be perfect, I'll see it but I won't be involved in the conversation so I can just like… Not that I can't talk about the law, I mean I went to law school but I just, I’m like, “Eh.” Analyzing laws wasn't my favorite thing.

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Rhia: I still do it. 

Josey: I know.

Rhia: I still, that's my favorite part of the law-

Josey: Same.

Rhia: -is like the theory, how things are playing out in the court…

Josey: Yes!

Rhia: how, you know, societal, these like societal structures change, um…yeah. 

Josey: I love watching a case move up through the system. It's like, oh! 

Rhia: Whew! 

Josey: Spicy!

Rhia: Watching good trial lawyers? Yes. Like that is…

Josey: Something about that is…

Rhia: A hundred percent.

(Kate laughs)

Josey: Like I still listen to oral arguments.

Rhia: Same.

Josey:  And I, every time I hear like someone that's so competent and like answering the question, I'm like, oh my god!

Rhia: Me too, 100%. (Kate snorts) I'm taking notes. I'm like, this is everything. 

Josey: I know.

Rhia: Like, if I could practice law- I mean, which there are some worlds in which this is possible- where I… Why am I talking about this? Or should we…

(Rhia trails off into laughter.)

Josey: I don't know. I know we've just done it. 

Kate: Why not? Let’s do it.

Rhia: We took over!

Josey: We'll do the episode now, Kate. We're gonna go-

Kate: Yeah, I'm gonna jump off and you two just keep going for another two hours.

(All laugh)

Rhia: We’re wrapping up and now I’m diving into legal analysis.

Josey: Yeah!

Kate: No, this is fine. This is no, it's totally fine. 

Rhia: Later.

Kate: I'm from Minnesota by way of an Uruguayan mother, so I never say goodbye at the time that I'm supposed to. I'm always staying for an extra… (Rhia and Josey laugh) hour and a half of conversation. So it's not a problem for me at all. 

No, it's just, it was never my, like, I never nerded out in that way, probably just because I never loved the law in the first place. I was just like, “This is a necessary step to do something else.” 

Rhia: Right.

Kate: I will spend several days dedicated to writing out the exact way in which Hannibal meets the standards of The DENNIS System. (Rhia laughs.) So, you know, that's… That's an element of law school that stays with me. I'm like, “Let's break it down…” (All laugh)  “...and see. Let's apply the facts to the law.” That part I did always like about law school was I was like, what are the facts and how does it fit on this? Like mapping that stuff out. I like that. And the storytelling.

Rhia: Yeah! I agree. It just trains you how to think. I agree. An issue spot. Some people ask me that about coaching. They're like, how long have you been coaching? And I'm like, well, like three years, but also my training as a lawyer and like… in law school, all you do is like listen for problems in the follow up questions that you need to ask. 

Kate: Yeah.

Rhia: I've been training for a while, honey. Like I…

Josey: I’m a fantastic listener. Yeah.

Rhia: Yes, right. And then I'm listening for exactly where you didn't tell the whole story and like coming up the follow up questions. It's very much like deposition prep coaching.

Josey: Yes!

Kate: Uh huh.

Rhia: It's like being in a depo a hundred percent. 

Kate: Well, ladies, amazing. 

Josey: We’re so sorry.

(Josey and Rhia laugh.)

Kate: No, you don't have to be sorry. This has been amazing, and I'm really excited for the rest of the season, and excited to just keep diving into… into the shit.

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia: Into the shit. Into all the things that drive burnout and more. 

Josey: Couldn’t agree more.

Rhia: Couldn’t agree more as well. Thank you both for asking me. It was like the easiest decision ever. Kate and I were both like, she was like, “I don't want you to feel pressure.” And I was like, no, “I'm yes. I'm a yes.” So thank you for thinking of me and Josie. Thank you for trusting me with this baby that you both have built over the last… the last year. I promise to do you proud.

Josey: Oh my God, that's not even a question. 

Kate: Not even a worry.

Josey: You're gonna do me proud and exceed my expectations tenfold. It's, yeah, it's gonna be great. I'm so excited to see where you guys take this. And then to just be a fan.

Kate: Well, and we will, like, I've already said this to you, but I'm like, one of the things that is really important that I think that you bring to the podcast is bringing up the issue of “not just attorneys.” Like legal staff, paralegals, like it is not just attorneys who face these issues. And we will also be, I don't know if we said this already, but we're branching out outside legal a little bit this... 

So we are always still the legal burnouts because we burned out of legal. But we do wanna start exploring the issue of burnout outside of legal. And that's the other reason that Rhia is perfect for this. But as far as we are continuing to talk about legal, I do want to endeavor to have Josey's spirit continue and the paralegal struggle be recognized.

Rhia: Yeah, I agree. 

Josey: Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that, Kay, because I did want to say, stepping back doesn't mean I'm not someone people can still reach out to, especially paralegals. You know, I'm still going to be around. I'm still willing to talk to people that are, you know, in similar situations that I was in and not. 

But I also want to, you know, encourage the paralegals, the staff, you know, anyone that's non-attorney, even though there may not be a paralegal still co-hosting this, this is very much an all-encompassing of the legal field podcast. And as a paralegal myself, I cannot think of two people better as far as having attorney backgrounds and where they are currently to host you and to hear your story and advocate for you. 

So if you are a paralegal, if you are a staff, and you're thinking me leaving changes your ability to reach out and be on the podcast, it is the complete opposite. So keep coming, keep listening to the podcast and keep being, you know, advocating for yourself as staff, as paralegals, because your experience is just as valid as the attorneys.

Kate: Thank you for saying that.

Rhia: You are very welcome here and we hope to do all of you proud as someone who has been incredibly supported by support staff.

And yeah, Josey, I know you kind of mentioned this in the beginning, Kate, but I want to say, what an incredible example of stepping away from something when you don't have capacity for it when the high achiever in us when the perfectionist in us would often say to do the opposite. I think it's an incredible example of preventing burnout and making sure that you're not in a place where you can't show up to your life and your work the way that you want to. So really it is anti-burnout behavior in action and I think that's really important for people to see.

Kate: Yes. 

Josey: Well, thank you both. 

Kate: We will be back, uh… you know, as far as I know when this comes out, we'll be back next week, but you never know. 

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Rhia: We’ll be back when we’re back. We’re not, no one’s trying to burn out.

Kate: We'll be back when we're back. Don't, yeah, don't worry about it. We'll be back, whatever. Like, see you fools. 

Rhia: Just set on auto download, and we'll let you know. 

Josey: When we're back, you'll see us.

Kate: Yeah. No, we're back. We're back. We'll be consistent. And we hope you continue to join us and enjoy the direction that it goes.

Rhia: Yeah.

Outtro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by growlforce. Thanks for listening.