Episode 12. Unspoken Rules With Chloe Diaz

Kate Bridal: Collectively, as a society, can we all just agree that pantyhose should not be a thing anymore?

Chloe Diaz: No pantyhose, no golf.

(Josey Hoff laughs)

Kate: No pantyhose, no golf! (Kate laughs) Someday we’re gonna have t-shirts (Chloe laughs) and that’s gonna be one of them.

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law.

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 12

Kate: Honey, honey.

Josey: Yes, darling?

Kate: You wanna do a podcast? 

Josey: I sure do.

Kate: Fantastic. Especially great because it is our last guest interview of the season, of our first ever season, which is very exciting. And we have made it a good one because we have Chloe Diaz with us today. 

Chloe is a first-gen Asian and Latina law graduate who oversees all marketing operations at the legal tech startup Courtroom Insight. In her free time, she runs a nonprofit mentorship program for pre-law students from underrepresented backgrounds. The nonprofit helps hundreds of students break into the legal space and better navigate law school. 

On her TikTok and on her Instagram, @chloendiaz, if you wanna follow her, she shares her personal journey navigating gate kept spaces and provides education tips for pre-law and law students, and I will also say has fashion moments that are to die for. 

Chloe: Thank you.

Kate: Come for the law school tips, stay for the fashion. Thank you so much for joining us! We're so excited to have you here.

Chloe: Thank you for having me. I'm getting nervous.

Josey: Don’t get nervous.

Kate: It's funny because we just did our first guest appearance on another podcast. And I was–

Chloe: Yeah I saw!

Kate: -- so much more nervous for that than when we host. I have a new appreciation for all of the people who are willing to come on as guests.

Josey: Yeah.

Chloe: Yeah, I feel like it's a different kind of nerve-wracking. Maybe it's the loss of control for me, I don't know.

Kate: That's part of it for sure for me. 

Josey: Yeah. I think I have the opposite.

Kate: Yeah, you seemed to be…

Josey: I was more comfortable being interviewed than interviewing. If it doesn't turn out well, that's on them. (Chloe laughs) I feel more a sense of like, weight of like, this is my product in a sense. 

Chloe: Oooohhh.

Kate: Interesting. That’s how I should start looking at it.

Josey: Well it seems to work for you the way you’re doing it, so…

Kate: (Laughing) As long as one of us is strong in each context, that’s all we need. We can lean on each other.

Josey: We got it.

Kate: So we love everything that you've been doing around mentorship. Just as some background, we'd love to hear about your journey to law school and kind of what made you decide to turn that experience into helping to make change for other folks and educating them.

Chloe: Big question.

Josey: No pressure.

(Kate laughs)

Chloe: Like, you know how most people, or not most people, but a good amount of people are like, “I knew I wanted to be a lawyer since I was, like, in kindergarten and I argued with my teacher”? (Kate and Josey laugh) I just feel like that was never me.

Kate: Me either.

Chloe: I think like just coming from a first-gen kind of Asian household, you have three options. It's like you're a doctor, you're an engineer, or you're a lawyer. I can't do math, so…

(Chloe and Kate laugh)

Josey: You and me both.

Chloe: I feel like lawyer, that was the only viable path. And then, you know, damages comes and you're like, wait, what the heck? But…

Kate: (Laughing) Oh my god, community property state, god forbid, yeah.

Chloe: We don't even have to get into it. (All laugh) For me, I was just kind of like, well, I guess this is all I can do with the skills that I have and this is all that I know. So I guess I'm gonna do this thing. I feel like I was never too set in stone about it. It wasn't until like sort of like these, I guess like three major experiences that made me feel more firm in my decision. 

The first was when I was sexually assaulted on campus and there wasn't anything done about my case. And later I sort of found out that the university police was significantly underreporting the amount of assaults happening on campus, and were actually like doing these things themselves. 

Kate: (Sighing) Ugh.

Chloe: Yeah. Gross activity. 

The second was when I was, shortly thereafter, like trying to get an abortion and this was like around 2016, so a lot of newly imposed laws just making the process more difficult and dehumanizing and yeah, I don't think any human should have to experience that. 

And then the last was, I thought politics might be my calling, o I started working in that space. That sort of ended up in like me being like stalked, like attacked, like receiving death threats from local neonazi groups. 

(Kate sighs.)

 But I think like what all three of these experiences really taught me is that, yes, the law is this extremely gate kept tool, but it can be used to do so much good or so many horrific things, right? And I wanted to be one of those people who could take this tool and use it for good. I think that's sort of like how I realized I did wanna go to law school and ended up pursuing it for a bit.

Josey: I mean, first of all, thank you for sharing those with us and with the listeners, because I think it's going to resonate with a lot of people. Can you tell us a little bit more about once you were in law school, how you felt… That experience, was it meeting your expectations for what you were hoping to accomplish by going or was it not? And how did that play out for you?

Chloe: Yeah, like I went into law school with this big idea: I'm going to change the world, I'm going to do things that can help improve the conditions for historically marginalized groups. But then you get there and my experience was, working like full time, like,  in addition to law school at a law firm or in nonprofit spaces, you sort of very quickly realize that one, the laws aren't geared towards trying to actually help marginalized people. And two, there are a lot of like social hierarchies and just, I guess, structural aspects about the law that make it extremely difficult to actually effectuate change, at least at scale.

It's exhausting. I mean, (Chloe and Kate laugh) This is a legal burnout podcast, like…When you grow up being the one who is experiencing the detriment of laws and then being on the other side and being like, “I can't do anything for these people because I have to like charge them this billable rate, even though they're literally homeless now.”

Kate: Mm.

Chloe: The law school experience was very sobering and made me feel not as optimistic about the legal space.

Kate: Yeah. You mentioned doing firm and nonprofit. Did you explore both while you were in law school? Did you do internships, clinics, and stuff in both spaces?

Chloe: Yeah, so I was sort of working in nonprofit before law school, and then in law school I worked both on the firm side and on the nonprofit side. Loved nonprofit, but I was doing good work, it was on an individual basis, but it's like… I can't pay my bills. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Chloe: And then on the other hand, I get into the firm space, like, I'm still doing work to like help people, but I'm not exactly helping the people I wish I could help. I'm only helping people who can pay this billable rate. And neither of them seemed to like work for me in the sense of trying to effectuate change at a greater scale. It's just made out to be a lot more accessible of a thing to do than it is. And it is not. 

Josey: Yeah, I mean, we just had this conversation recently about your idea of what you're going to be able to do in law school and then the options you feel like you're left with when you're trying to find a job afterwards. Oftentimes people that don't have the means to do nonprofit work and not worry about paying their bills end up having to go the law firm route. There's not enough options that pay well enough once you get out and allow you to do what you want to do.

Chloe: Either you pay the bills or you help people. It's like this weird binary.

Kate: Yeah. And I’ve brought this up a couple of times, but you have to kind of be privileged from the jump to be able to go into nonprofit work after law school. Which is a problem because a lot of the folks who I worked with at nonprofits looked like me, it was a ton of white women. I don't know why there aren't more men in nonprofit, who knows, maybe they're just more like, “I'm not fucking doing that job for no money.” (All laugh) Women are more like, “Of course, we'll do it for the service!”

Josey: We already make less.

Kate: I know, we’re like, “Oh well, might as well feed my soul, I guess.” But it's tough and someone else brought up to me that it's also tougher for the folks who do manage to do it who are from those communities, emotionally, because there's such a higher kind of toll when you're working with your own community and you feel like you have to serve them. There's this other whole sense of… of heaviness. 

So I would be curious if- I don't know what kind of nonprofit work you were doing, but I'd be curious to hear your experience with that and if there was kind of another emotional weight to that for you.

Chloe: Yeah. I had sort of two, I guess, big nonprofit experiences. One was working with immigrant people in asylum. The other was related to like, low wage workers, any issues that they were experiencing. So discrimination, unemployment, things of that nature. 

Coming from an immigrant background, working-class background, it's really hard to create that distinction of, okay, this is just my job. And once my job is over that's it, like, I can live my life. I have personally like experienced the detriment of these laws. I can relate to this so much and I want to help this person so much, and now I'm going to be like thinking about this I'm going to be having nightmares about this until I can hopefully help them. 

Kate: Yep.

Chloe: How do I create that distinction when it is so intertwined with my upbringing, identity? It's really emotionally difficult and at the end of the day like, yeah, I would put in all these extra hours, I got the highest pro bono distinction doing all this free work, because it was really important to me. But then it's like, I also had insane muscle spasms, couldn't move the upper half of my body because I was so debilitated from stress, from doing all this free labor. And it's like, where do we draw the line?

Kate: Mmhmm.

Josey: I so relate to the nightmares. After doing my kind of stint in nonprofit, there were things about it that were kind of similar to my past or kind of triggering there. When I got back to normalcy, I remember having nightmares for, I think, like three months, just reoccurring nightmares about it. I think there is another level of you get invested and then it just stays with you.

Chloe: Oh, one hundred percent.

Kate: I can't imagine, because I didn't have the same lived experiences as the folks that I was helping, you know, generally speaking. I still couldn't let it go and couldn't stop worrying and couldn't stop thinking about people and my clients. So I cannot imagine how much more difficult that is to disconnect when you relate to them in that way and when you've had that same experience and like you said, been on that side of those same laws. 

You mentioned kind of thinking about getting into the political side of things… Because that was the first thing that I thought of after I burned out in nonprofit was maybe I can try and go and do legislative stuff. And that'll help me because I'm going further upstream. Even if you were an attorney, they wanted you to have so many years of experience and hill connections and all of that stuff. So I'm curious to hear about what your experience was in that political space as well.

Chloe: Yeah, my political experience is more like pre-law school. When I was in law school, I was like, maybe I should check out the policy route. Let's be real, the people who should be writing laws that affect people are the people who are being affected by them, like the people who have lived experience. But I mean, we look at all of our politicians and our lawmakers and they, like, it's the same color scheme, you know?

Kate: Yeah. 

(Kate laughs.)

Josey: It's exactly the track I took to I was like, I'm going to go the political route and change the government and all these things. And then I had the same realization, I was like, “Oh, no, it looks like you do this through law. Okay, I'll go that route now.” And that's at the end of the day, it's just hard to get into that level of change, no matter what you do. It's about having connections to people in power. 

Kate: You know, housing wasn't something I'd even thought about in law school. And then suddenly I found myself fighting the housing system and finding a new source of activism for myself that I'd never thought about before. I guess that's what I would have had to do, is just know from basically my 1L year and just intern purely at legislative stuff until I graduated. But I didn't know that was an issue that I would want to do that for. So how the hell are you supposed to get in after the fact? And I was like, I'm an attorney! Like I can read legislation and figure it out. I wasn't asking for a lot of money to do it either. Just let me in!

Josey: Yeah.

(Kate laughs)

Chloe: And it's like, even then, even then, say you checked all those boxes, you were networking like your ass off. Even then, like the amount of biases that exist… “What country club are you in?” There are still so many barriers to getting into that space that makes it almost impossible to become like a policy writer.

Josey: It's all about country clubs and golf, you guys.

Kate: (With distaste) Golf.

Josey: I have this thing against golf right now. Don't get me started, because I'll go down a rabbit hole, but..

Chloe: I mean, I am anti-golf, so I'm standing with you in solidarity.

(Kate laughs)

Kate: So obviously you got to law school, it wasn't the experience that you were hoping for. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? What were the things that you were seeing in law school- Apart from learning more about the law and how the legal system worked. Which totally happened to me too. I think if you'd asked me going into law school, if I had a very like optimistic view of the legal system, I probably would have said no. But for as cynical as I was about it when I went in, after I learned more in law school, I was like, the system is just fucked. Like I was like, there's no way! There's no winning. 

Chloe: It's like, it gets worse?

(Chloe laughs)

Kate: Yeah, the Supreme Court was given all of this evidence of how the death penalty is used very racistly and they were like, “It's okay"? Very disheartening. But I would love to hear more from you kind of about the things that you were encountering and the experience you were having in law school that took the shine away from it a little bit.

Chloe: I think what ultimately led to my burnout- It was a slow burn for sure. But it's like that first year of… I'm from the border, I was raised in Houston. I've never like, experienced a lot of the things that these people have experienced. And then yeah, I get into law school and the way everyone speaks is different. The way everyone dresses is different. The way everyone looks is also different. How was I supposed to know that when I go to an event where there's food I'm not actually supposed to eat the food when someone's talking to me? (Kate laughs) Like, I'm hungry! Like, free food? I’m gonna eat it!

Josey: I did that at my first cocktail party. 

Kate: You're not supposed to eat the food? Is this like a firm thing?

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: I'm confu- I've never heard about this.

Chloe: Okay, this is how I found out. I pulled up to the event, plenty of free food. I'm like, hell yeah. I didn't even know what an hors d’ouevre was, I just like, free food? Say less. 

Josey: Yeah, right?

Chloe: I go stock up my plate. I have like a drink in one hand, my- I think it was a deviled egg in the other. I’m like eating it, drinking it. (Kate laughs) I’m talking to these attorneys. I'm getting into arguments with attorneys. I was arguing with his attorney at like one of the top law firms, which I didn't know at the time. And I'm like, “The Popeyes chicken sandwich is delicious!” Like, we're like getting into it. 

Josey: It's so good. 

Kate: (Laughing) I pictured you arguing about something legal, so I love that you were arguing about…

Josey: (Laughing) I did too!

Chloe: (Laughing) No, no, not even! I'm just arguing about menial things with people who are so self-important and have god complexes, and I'm just like this little girl who's also not wearing the right business attire. I was a menace. And someone should have told me before I walked into my first ever networking event that I should have dressed different, I should have- 

Josey: They need to tell you these things, I agree. I went to my first cocktail party and I was like, stock up that plate. This is free food and it's nice food. I was like, I'm going to pile this all on. And then I was like, “I wonder if I can take some of this home?” (Kate laughs) Like for dinner. That's where my mind went. I was like, can I take home my leftovers maybe? I’d just graduated, like I had debt and I'm thinking I just moved to an expensive city and I'm like…

Chloe: Oh yeah.

Kate: Give. Me. The free. Food.

Josey: Yeah. And I- People kept looking at me like I was crazy as I'm like stuffing my face. 

Chloe: I genuinely don't think I would have survived law school if it were not for the free food. And I don't care if I wasn't supposed to eat it. People knew me because I would be the first person lined up at every event getting food, getting seconds. They'd be like, “Chloe, where's the food at today?”

Kate: I wish I was your friend in law school, because I would have followed you everywhere for all of the food. 

And also, I know you were like, they should teach us this, what not to do. But I just was thinking like when you were like, “Oh, yeah I was, arguing with this guy, and I didn't know that he was a big deal.” That's how I was too. I just never bothered to learn because I was like, well, I don't want to be in a firm. 

But I think that that's positive. I think that it's a good thing to have people in the industry who are just like not paying attention to the rules, who don't know the rules because that's the only way that things change, is people who go in not knowing the rules and then question them.

Chloe: Oh, one hundred percent.

Kate: So I'm like no, do not teach people not to eat. Everybody go to law events, bring your Tupperware. I'm pro this movement.

Josey: I used to keep my Tupperware in my desk drawer. So I would get my plate of food and be like, “Oh, I gotta go back to, I gotta go work.”

Kate: “So busy.”

Josey: You know, I gotta get back to my desk. And then I get back and would, like,  dump it into my little Tupperware. (Kate laughs) But it's funny, cause when I started, I started right when the summer associates did. And so every partner, every attorney, thought that I was a summer associate cause I was young. And so I looked like about, you know, the age for that.

They would ask me, you know, “Oh, you're a summer associate, how are you liking…?” And I'm like, “Oh, well, I'm just a legal assistant.” And they were like, “Oh…” and wander off in another direction. 

(Josey laughs) 

Chloe: No! When you treat your legal assistant that way, it's like, red flag.

Josey: No, there were many kind people there. But it was also… You could see like the level of like performing to impress, you know, a summer associate, just like go away and be like, “Oh, okay, you're here for the hard work.”

Kate: Yeah, we don't need to fool you.

Josey: Yeah, it was so funny.

Chloe: I think law firms are just a pyramid scheme. (Kate laughs.) Someone told me that my first, my 1L year. (Josey laughs.) I didn't understand it. And then afterwards I was like, “You are so right.” They make you seem like it's all good. Then you get in there and you're like, I gotta grind so that these other people can make money?

Kate: Yeah, yeah, they're like, “Tell your friends how amazing it is here!” 

Chloe: (Laughing) Yeah, yes! Yes!

Kate: “You're responsible for bringing in three more associates.”

Chloe: You get like a referral bonus. 

Kate: That's true! 

So did you have a point during law school where you were like, “I am not going to be a lawyer, I have no desire, I don't want to actually do this”? Or did you still graduate and think, no, I'm putting my head down? Did you have a job lined up after? What was your kind of post-graduation experience?

Chloe: Post-grad I did have a job at a firm lined up. It was definitely a slow burn for me. But I think when I was donezo was… My last year, the law firm I was working out was like, working me to death. And then, you know, graduation today is supposed to be this super rejoiceful, fun, amazing day. And the minute I walk across that stage and I have these debilitating spasms where I literally can't move my body, it's like… Is this worth it? 

I'm literally only in law school. I've like worked in law firms for like three years and I am experiencing so many like mental and physical issues from stress that I don't think I can physically do this. And at that moment I was like… “The bar?” (Kate and Josey laugh) I don't know, like, I think we'll push through like maybe I'll try to keep this job while I can, but I gotta go. I am not going to be able to live my life like this.

Josey: And I can tell you it only gets worse. 

Chloe: Yep.

Josey: The last firm I worked for, I- Laundry list of health issues, because I was so stressed and on edge all the time that my body was just taking such a huge hit. And I remember thinking,  (Laughing) “I'm not gonna be able to afford these medical bills if I keep going like this, you know?” Like, literally.

(Chloe laughs)

Kate: My god.

Josey: And the doctor’s, like, you know, “Your body, the health issues you're getting already in your 20s, you're going to hit the health issues you should have in your 40s in just a couple of years.” 

Kate: Wow.

Josey: I think that's when it started to hit me that I needed to get out, because it messes with your life expectancy if you start to have health conditions so young. So…

Kate: Oh my god.

Josey: Yeah, it's a real thing.

Kate: I had some physical symptoms in that like, my jaw started locking up because I would, I tense and grind my teeth so much at night.

Chloe: Yeah.

Kate: And so now it still happens like my jaw will lock sometimes. 

And then I had high blood pressure. Not like clinically high. But every time I went to a checkup while I was in law school, they were like, “Eh, we're keeping an eye on this?” And I would be like, “I'm a law student.” And they would basically be like, “Oh. That's it.”

Chloe: You know, having conversations with other people always makes me feel like, yeah, none of my experiences are original. (Kate and Chloe laugh) Like, I remember going to the doctor too, and the doctor being like, “Are you on Adderall or something? Like, your heart rate is so high.” And I'm like, “No, I'm actually not right now. Like, I haven't been for a while. It's just, I'm very stressed.” 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Yep. 

So when you had that thought, when you were like, “Donezo and I don't know about the bar,” what was- How did you figure out what you were going to do? 

Chloe: I can't say that I have like a five year plan, to say the least. At first I was thinking like maybe I'll go back into nonprofit, but again, I was like, okay, I don't think I can take this emotional toll. So then I was like, okay, well, what am I good at? I don't know, when I was in middle school, I used to like code websites for my neopets…

(Kate laughs)

Josey: What?! You just, “I used to code.” I thought you said you weren’t good at math!

Chloe: I'm- Okay, here's the thing, here's the thing. I'm not good at like… normal people math? (All laugh) Like, I can't I can't multiply, I can't add, I can't divide. But if you give me a theorem, if you give me logic, I will fuck that shit up.

Kate: Oooooo.

Chloe: I am great at abstract math. 

Josey: Were you good at logic games?

Chloe: I did not study for the LSAT. (Kate gasps loudly.) Well, I tried to, but ADHD.

Kate: The logic part was the part that I struggled with. 

Josey: I got a perfect score on the logic games.

Kate: I can’t do them at speed. 

Chloe: Oh, speed, yeah, speed is my problem too.

Josey: It's the only thing I could do at speed.

Kate: The time that I actually finally took the LSAT was the first time I actually got through all of the logic problems. I just got lucky.

Josey: This is so interesting because I… Reading comprehension, I think, with the longer passages…?

Kate: That was my shit.

Josey: Couldn't do it.

Chloe: Me either.

Josey: Because I can't read quickly. 

Kate: Oh yeah, I read and write very fast.

Josey: Yeah no, I can't read quickly. But let me tell you, those logic games, once they clicked? Done.

Kate: Wait, but so Chloe, did you- You still passed on the first try even though you didn't study for the LSAT?

Chloe: Yeah, like I did like pretty well on the LSAT, but-

Kate: Well!

Chloe: I definitely should have studied. 

I also didn't like apply to law school until like… I literally sent in my applications on the very last day of every single law school like deadline. The law school that I ended up going to was like, “Do you even want to go here?”

Kate: Oh they judged you for submitting it on the last day?!

Chloe: Yeah. They waitlisted me, and then they called me personally and they're like, “We don't think you actually want to go here. So that's why we're not admitting you.”

Kate: What?!

Chloe: And I was like, no, I- this is actually my top choice school. That happened to me for actually two schools. So…

Kate: I have never heard this.

Chloe: Putting that out there. If you get waitlisted, maybe call them. 

Josey: It is ridiculous that there are all these unspoken rules that aren't taught.

Chloe: Oh yeah.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: They should just publicize these things. If you want students to understand and apply to the schools they really want to go to early, tell them that this will look bad if you submit it on the last day. Cause if you put a last day, that's… It shouldn't count against you as long as you make the deadline. 

Kate: No!

Chloe: Yeah, like if that's the deadline, it's the deadline, right?

Kate: Yeah!

Josey: So it's the same with the profession, though. Unspoken rules that you're supposed to just figure out.

Chloe: One hundred percent.

Kate: Yeah, it's their way of gatekeeping. The spoken rules are also there to gatekeep, but the unspoken rules in particular really affect the folks who, you know…

Josey: Didn’t grow up privileged.

Chloe: Yep, or don’t have a connection.

Kate: Yeah! Yeah. And so, Chloe, you were working full-time the whole time you were in law school, is that, did I hear that right?

Chloe: Yeah, so. I'd like work part time at like two separate places throughout law school. And then like during the summer, I would work full time at one but I don't know why I did that. I mean, maybe it was but… It was miserable and I did not do very well in law school. So… 

(Chloe and Kate laugh) 

Josey: It's another part of the inequity. I've said it before that, if you have to stop working as an adult in order to study for a degree, that's a problem. An adult that's responsible for paying their own living costs should not be told not to work for a degree. It’s just not realistic. You can't possibly study to the degree that your peers are that don't have to work. I worked two jobs in college and it didn't give me the time to study like I needed to make certain grades. And I didn't have a terrible GPA, but I didn't have a great GPA either because I didn't have the fucking time. 

When you go to apply for the job or for law school or whatever it is that you're applying for and they look at that GPA, or they look at how you did in law school, that's what they're looking at. They're not taking into consideration that this person was working their ass off and they managed to get these grades as well. That should count towards, this person's going to work really hard and still perform.

Chloe: Amen.

Josey: That’s my rant for the day.

Kate: (Laughing) That's a good rant. So a new cohort of law students has just started their law school journey. Obviously, your whole thing is talking about these gate-kept secrets and these unspoken rules. So what's some of the advice that you would give to law students or things that maybe you wish… I mean, I don't think you should have had to do anything differently in law school to make it work for you.

Josey: No.

Kate: It's a systemic problem.

Josey: Absolutely.

Kate: But are there any strategies that you kind of wish that you had known going into it that would have helped you?

Chloe: I think the first and the biggest one for me is probably like tackling imposter syndrome. I would say to anyone who is experiencing imposter syndrome or like starting to feel like creep up… It's so much easier said than done, but you just need to believe in yourself. Law school and the culture is purposely so exclusionary, and the system was made for you to not belong. But if you made it to this space, you just have to believe that you belong. But if you made it to the space, you have to believe that you belong there just as much as the next person, and you can't waver in that confidence because that's exactly what the system wants you to do. And you can't accomplish what you want to accomplish if you don't.

Josey: Yes! Dropping this wisdom on us, my god. 

(Kate and Chloe laugh)

Kate: So good, yeah.

Josey: So good.

Chloe: Thank you. And I think the second, which is more like tangible stuff, like what you can actually do: What I wish someone had told me is when you set ou these goals for yourself and you have this idea of like who you want to be, yes, absolutely go and try to find people who are in those positions or close to those positions that you can get to understand that position better or like learn how you can get into that sort of position. 

But I really encourage you to be critical of  who the person is who's giving this advice. Do they look different than you? If so, maybe the tips that they are giving you might not actually apply to you. For example, I feel like in law school, a lot of men would tell me, “You just need to chill out, like, just chill out and be yourself and things will be fine.”

The advice a woman probably would have given is, “Yeah, people are going to look at you like if you're not wearing pantyhose, you got to do this, you got to do that.” (Kate laughs) So with that being said, Yes, you should try to get like information from people who are in the positions that you want to be in, but also try to get tips from people who navigate the world in the same almost kind of body as you, because that advice may be more relevant to you and more helpful to you.

Kate: That's such a great point.

Josey: I'm not just saying this, I think those are such relevant and really important things for incoming law students to hear. And it's not advice that we've talked about before or heard. 

It's important anytime you're doing something, if you're taking career counseling. If you're listening to someone that can't share in your experiences and maybe some of the things that you have, the system has built against you, and those are part of your reality, that person's advice is not going to be able to take into account those blockers. And those blockers change how you're going to approach that. So that advice just really isn't relevant to you if it's not seeing it through the lens that you're going to have to live in. 

Chloe: One hundred percent.

Kate: Absolutely. 

I would love to hear more about the nonprofit that you started to educate incoming law students and future prospective law students. Maybe occasionally to kindly steer them off the path.

Chloe: Yeah! The nonprofit is called URMentor. It’s actually a play on words, so U-R-M Under-Represented Minority. But essentially URMentor is a way to connect underrepresented students from high school to college with law students and lawyers who can answer the questions or guide them through the law school application process. We’ve connected, like, hundreds of students across the US, gave them application resources, so like, how should you like tackle a personal statement? What things should you have on your radar when you are applying to a law school or when you are starting to study for the LSAT? And we've also helped provide like over $20,000 in scholarships.

Kate: Wow!

Chloe: We're actually reopening our applications for the summer of 2024. So definitely feel free to check it out and apply. It is free, by the way. 

Kate: That’s so cool, thats amazing. So you connect pre-law students with current law students as well, so like law students are mentors as well?

Chloe: Yeah.

Kate: That's so cool.

Chloe: I think people who are still in law school just had like the application experience. I mean, even from the time that like I applied to law school, like so much has changed. And I could not give as sound advice as someone who had just gone through it again.

Kate:Yeah, and you’re getting maybe a more real peek into the law school experience if you're speaking to someone who's going through it.

How did you come to start that? I mean, it always blows my mind, people who kind of take the initiative to just launch something like that. And so I'm fascinated to know what the process is like.

Chloe: A lot of my accomplishments are driven by spite. (Josey and Kate laugh) And yeah, after…

Josey: Oh, this is great.

Chloe: After my first year of law school, I was like, “This is not okay.” Like, I don't like the fact that I went through this. Nobody else needs to go through this. After my first year of law school, I was like, I'm doing it. 

Kate: Oh, wow.

Chloe: I just posted a TikTok and I was like, “If you want to join this mentorship program that I'm creating, just sign up.” And then like the list was insane. It was like thousands of people. I was like, okay, I don't know if I have that capacity right now, but I will work my hardest to try to connect all of you with people. And yeah, it just started in that way. And I was like, you know, even if law school doesn't like being a lawyer, it doesn't work out for me as long as I am like helping people out, I can sleep at night, you know?

Kate: Yeah, you took your own negative experience and spun it into changing that for others, which I think is part of the problem that we've talked about before in law, is there's a lot of the attitude of like, “Well, I had to go through it. So that's just the way it is. And other people have to too.” 

Chloe: Mmhmm.

Kate: I really love that you took the opposite approach and saw all the bullshit and were like, “Well, how do I stop the bullshit?” Because it's keeping people out of the profession who are passionate, and who should be in it, and should be the exact ones that maybe actually would make it a profession that makes more of a realistic difference. 

Josey: Are there any specific signs for burnout, are there certain things that you notice in yourself? Like, I know for me, I start to freeze and I feel like I can't start something when I start to feel burnt out. And that's a very clear sign to me now. Do you have any of those little cues that you look for now?

Chloe: Yeah. A lot of them are physical. So I'll feel like my jaw is sore because I've been grinding my teeth at night. Or I'll notice while I'm looking at the computer, I'm furrowing my brow. But I think two that are a bit more mental are just general brain fog. And then I get into this like feeling of like, what am I doing with my life? What is the purpose of life? 

Kate: Existential crisis.

Josey: Yeah.

Chloe: (Laughing) Yeah, I start having an existential crisis. 

It's like that and then I think very similar to you: Paralysis, like I just I can't even start a new task. I feel like once I start this thing, it's going to make my life even worse. But most of them for me, I think are physical.

Josey: It's different for everyone. And I, I think I have a combination of both, but I know everyone kind of differs a little bit. There are similarities that we've heard, but I know once I found out other people experienced similar symptoms, then I was able to identify it as burnout, but before that I was like, I don't know what's happening to my body, but something is.

Chloe: Yeah, I think that… This is my theory, but I think that the way that burnout manifests itself is probably also related to like, our attachment styles and trauma. So I feel like for me,when I'm experiencing an emotion, I can't really identify it. And like, what I feel are more so like physical symptoms, because I kind of just like disassociate. In my in a fight or flight situation, mine is either flight or dissociate. The physical symptoms I can feel and I can tell, but like mentally I'm like, well, I'm already dissociated. So like, how would I be able to recognize that?

Kate: That's really interesting. Yeah, for me, it's much more mental. It's like sleep loss, because my brain won't turn off, and anxiety. The mental image that always comes to mind for me is like, you know when Scooby Doo and Shaggy, whenever they start to run and their legs just move for like a little while and they aren't actually going anywhere? That's how I feel when I'm in burnout, is like, I feel like I cannot get my feet under me. I feel like I can't do anything to the best of my ability at all in any part of my life. And like, I'm just constantly trying to get my feet back under me.

Chloe: I think maybe we should take a lesson or two from Scooby Doo. Like… (Kate laughs) Scooby and Shaggy were all stressed out, but you know what? At the end of the day, they smoke a joint, they eat a good meal, and you know what? It's all good.

Kate: (Laughing ) Get your Scooby Snacks…

Josey: This is my new coping mechanism. 

Kate: Go to your law school function high as shit (Chloe laughs) and load up on all of the free food…

Josey: Get all that food.

Kate: ... and argue with lawyers about the Popeye's chicken sandwich. 

Josey: (Laughing) As a high person would do.

Kate: That is the way to get through law school.

Chloe: Why are we even trying to like help people integrate into these rules? Maybe we should take a look at these rules and stop forcing people to not eat during networking sessions? 

Kate: Mmhmm! It's just exhausting. 

And you know, thinking about too the things you have to learn in law school, there are a lot of really difficult cases. And when you have experiences like many women do, you know, like you brought up Chloe that- You know, experiences with sexual assault and things like that. That can be just another layer of exhaustion and burnout when you have to be exposed to those cases and frequently with basically no warning. They're just like, “Read X case tonight and you open up the book and there it is.” You aren't necessarily educating with in a trauma informed way groups of people who are coming to you who have trauma.

Josey: And it plays into what we've been talking about, about this expectation that, “Well, we all have to deal with it. We all have to grow a thicker skin to do this. So I shouldn't have to cater to anyone that's maybe more triggered by a case, or maybe you shouldn't be here because if you can't handle this…” That is the rhetoric that is pushed still. 

Kate: Per usual, we have managed to end something on a really negative note.

(Kate laughs.)

Josey: (Laughing) I went super dark all of a sudden. 

Kate: I’m the one who brought in- the sexual assault back around so don't even worry about it.

Chloe: I was like, damn, this is all hitting. I was reflecting on my law school experience. I'm like, man.

Kate: Yeah this got heavy. Well, this is the last thing that I'll ask you then, Chloe, because you've already been very, very generous with your time, but is that something that you did experience, if you're okay talking about it, when you went into law school? Did you find that those things kind of jumped out and slapped you in the face sometimes, or were professors more sensitive warning about difficult topics and content?

Chloe: Yeah. One of my crim law professors- and of course it's a she- was like super empathetic. When she gave out the syllabus, she was like, had a note on there. And it was like, “If you feel uncomfortable coming the days that we're discussing like the sexual assault cases, you get like a free pass for not coming.” Generally you only get two free passes for not coming to class. 

But then I had a male crim law professor and he was like, “You need to get over it.” (Kate sighs heavily) “This is what you're going to have to deal with in the profession.” 

Kate: Not if I don't go into crim law, bro, for one thing!

Chloe: Exactly, exactly.

Kate: We're all here for many reasons and we're required to take this class. 

Chloe: Like, this is my required class.

Kate: Yeah, exactly.

Josey: You know how many practices you can go into and not deal with cases like that? 

Kate: Exactly right. 

Josey: Like, let’s think about the actual practice. 

Kate: Yeah. That's infuriating. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Chloe: Yeah, it's definitely interesting. I have two different professors saying two completely different things, like one who has a trauma-informed approach and another who couldn't give less of a shit about their students. 

Kate: I remember reading, like, a really disturbing sexual assault/rape case that really like bothered me, and no warning about it before we read it. And there are all sorts of things, right? You read about racial violence, you read about just straight up regular murder. (Kate and Chloe laugh) I mean all sorts of horrendous things that could trigger any number of people who have had experiences that, you know, the professors don't know about when they walk into the classroom.

Josey: It changes how you approach that class too. You know, if you have someone that is- cares about how you are ingesting this material, you feel the support and you're more able to show up for certain things. You're more willing to put in the work for that person because you know that they're going to give you the same respect and grace for your process. Where when you have someone that shuts you down like that, you feel like it just turns you off in general. You don't want to give them your best effort because they're not giving you their best..

Kate: No. And it sucks, especially if it's a class that you're really interested in. I mean, crim law and crim pro was my stuff. So if that had happened to me, like, if I had a similar experience to you, Chloe, that would have been crushing because it would have been one of the classes that was keeping me afloat that I actually fucking enjoyed in law school.

Chloe: It's so easy for someone to say, “Suck it up, deal with it,” when they personally have never had to deal with something like that. You couldn't live in my shoes, so.

Josey: Women have to think… Every time we leave the house we are looking over our shoulder. Always cautious if I see someone walking behind me, I try to, you know, all of these things.

Kate: “Oh, did that guy let me go off the bus first because he's nice or because he's following me?” 

Josey: Exactly. 

Kate: It's such a heavy thing to carry around too, to just know the stats. Like if I'm murdered, knowing that it's most likely it was my husband or another man that I know that I was close to, like… that sucks. It sucks to just carry that knowledge around. Not that I think my husband would actually murder me, obviously, or I wouldn't be married to him. (All laugh) But like, you know.

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: One of the things that I always say that's like the worst part of being a woman is that you cannot be as nice to people as you want to be. Because best case scenario, you know, you get someone who's misinterpreting you and then you have to have an awkward conversation. And worst-case scenario, that person misinterprets you and murders you. I would love to just be able to go up to people and ask if they're okay and help them out. I would love to give that guy that I see walking who's-

Josey: I’d love to give a ride.

Kate: Yeah, but I'm not gonna do that because I don't wanna die today. It sucks. It sucks.

Josey: And it's our fault. If we're too nice, we were asking for it, you know? 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Chloe: Or don't be too mean, because you'll also get killed.

Kate: That moment too, when you get catcalled and you're like, do I flip him off? Do I just keep walking? Either one might get me followed and murdered. I don't know. 

Chloe: Always walking a fine line.

Kate: Mmhmm.

Josey: Yeah, exactly. 

Chloe, you've been so generous with your time. And I just want to ask, before we end, do you have any ending thoughts that you would want to share with law students or people that are going through burnout? Anything that you've learned in your journey and wish you'd known earlier?

Chloe: This is gonna be controversial for sure, but… 

Kate: Good.

Chloe: What law schools don’t want you to know is that even if you are the most academically successful and had a knockout interview and are just an outstanding person, there are social systems that are in place that just make it to where you might not get the opportunity that you want. 

But there is still space for you and the place that does accept you is a place that actually holds values in diversity, and it is going to be the right opportunity for you. So assure yourself that you're going to end up in the right position even if people make you feel like you are not.

Kate: I think that's great advice. 

The level of self-assurance it takes to healthily get through law school and through a legal career is not something that is fostered by the experience of law school and a legal career. It's hard.

Chloe: Especially when your brain isn't fully developed. No underdeveloped brains, no golf, no pantyhose. 

(Kate laughs.)

Josey: Yes.

Chloe: That's the holy trinity.

Kate: There it is. Chloe, seriously, thank you so much for joining us, for getting real, for sharing, you know, talking about tough shit. We really appreciate it. These are the vital conversations that are really difficult, but that I think are the real difference makers too. You gotta get real if you're gonna survive in the legal world. And I think that this is gonna be really helpful. 

Chloe: Thank you for having me and for hosting these conversations.

Outtro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.