Josey Hoff: I swear to God, I'm gonna start golfing.

Kate Bridal: There's a whole, like, section of scholarship about the exclusionary thing of golf.

Rilee Harrison: My wife played golf in high school for like a year. But like, she comes with me. Rilee, saving face, “I played golf with a girl last week!” (Kate and Josey laugh) “I'm cool, I'm inclusive! I like women, they're cool!”

(All laugh)

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law.

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 9

Kate: Honey, honey.

Josey: Yes, darling?

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

Josey: (Weakly, laughing) I sure do.

(Kate laughs)

Kate: Well, don't sound too… (Rilee laughs) “I sure do,” she said, with all the self-assurance of Eeyore the Donkey. 

Rilee: (Through laughter) That’s incredible.

Kate: Well, as always, I’m- I'm glad that you decided to say yes, because we have an amazing guest today. We've got Rilee Harrison here today. Rilee is a trial lawyer who represents individuals injured in car wrecks, semi-tractor trailer collisions, workplace injuries, slip and falls, anything caused by the negligence of somebody else. He has been practicing since the spring of 2019. He's a lead attorney at Cain Law, and he also heads the firm's marketing and intake process, so man of many talents. He has built a network of attorneys across the country using social media, which has jumpstarted his career in terms of business generation. You can find him on Twitter @rileedharrison or @barredandbearded- which, I love that as a handle- or on Instagram and as of very recently Threads @attorneyrilez with a Z. He's excited to be here and talk about (Kate sighs) law school, man. All the stages, how before, during, and after law school can promote burnout. Rilee, thank you so much for being here with us today. We're very psyched to have you.

Rilee: I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me. I've seen your guest line up and I'm not sure how I got added to that list.

Kate: Pfft.

Rilee: But thank you.

Josey: Stop it. So modest.

Kate: Please. The way we usually start here is we kind of hear your story, where you started, how you got into the law and- and where you are now. And then, you know, whatever little- little tidbits of burnout you have along the way, and then we'll get more- more into the topic at hand, which of course is law school.

Rilee: Yeah. So I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma, kind of on the border with Arkansas. I was always just kind of a normal kid. I was involved in sports and like leadership type stuff. And that led to me getting a scholarship for college, which kind of changed everything for me. I don't think without that scholarship I would be where I am today because it made undergrad free.

The scholarship I got, I ended up getting another one from my university as well that was a leadership scholarship. And one of the requirements was you had to be really involved on campus. That's kind of what I started doing. I… Again, small town, so I grew up thinking, “Okay, if I want to make it in this world, I either need to be a doctor or a lawyer.”

I remember my mom telling me I shouldn't get a business degree because everyone she knew that had a business degree didn't have a job because, again, she had always lived in a small town. She was like, “You should get a political science degree.” I'm like, “What?” So that's what I did. (Kate and Josey laugh) Thanks, Mom. (Rilee laughs)

But I took some pre-med stuff and took some pre-law courses, realized I like- I liked law, I thought it was cool. I eventually got a finance minor as well. Went to law school planning to do business law. I’d moved from Oklahoma to Arkansas, went to the U of A, go Razorbacks. 

My plan was to do business law, but I started doing mock trial courses and stuff and realized that being in the courtroom was really where my calling was, where I could help people. I also got hit by a drunk driver while I was in law school. Got some injuries myself. Had the opportunity to go into personal injury, was with a really small firm at first and then got on with a big PI firm, personal injury firm. Love what I do, I really do love practicing law, but with that said, whenever y'all gave me the opportunity to talk about burnout, I was like, “Yes.”

(Kate and Josey laugh)

And I skipped a very important part of my story too: I didn't pass the bar on my first try. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rilee:  And so I was just at a really low point. You have to go through so much stuff in undergrad, you know, even to get to undergrad. Then you have to get an undergraduate degree, and it doesn't have to be anything to do with law. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Rillee: Then you have to go to law school. Then you have to pass the bar exam. It's very hard to do other things while you're doing that. And so you literally go through all of those things to pretty much start at the same income and salary as your friends that just went to undergrad. That's how a lot of people start in this industry, and some stay in that for a long time. 

Josey: There's so much there that I'm excited to dive into as well. (Rilee laughs) Like, there's so many parts of your story that are really just so integral into where you are today. I'm excited, especially because I know that this episode will be coming when a lot of students have just taken the bar. 

Kate: Yeah, people are going to be waiting still for their bar results when this comes out, and that's such a stressful time. And I know while I was doing it, I didn't really want to hear anything about the bar exam. But I do think that something that is helpful for people to hear, that was something that I needed to hear before and after I took it, was… People fail the bar exam and it's OK. It’s not an easy experience and it's not ideal, but you can get through it, you can overcome that, and you can practice law, be successful. Plenty of perfectly smart, competent, capable people fail the bar exam.

Josey: Case in point.

Rilee: And Michelle Obama. I'm just… Really cool to be on a list with her. So…

Kate: There you go! Anything that can put you on the same list as Michelle Obama… 

Rilee: That's all I really need in life, honestly. (Kate laughs) One of my best friends from law school, he found out his bar results while we were on his bachelor party. I was like, “Did y'all like know that was when this was gonna come out?” 

Josey: That’s the way to kill the mood on a bachelor party. 

(Rilee laughs)

Kate: Really, like, why would you plan for that? I had my plan to go out with people, but I was like, “If I fail, I might just be canceling.” 

I found out that I passed, and I didn't even feel relieved. All I could think was, “It's a mistake and they're gonna take it back.” And my husband like convinced me to check the results a little early and I was like, “They're not gonna be up. They've been very strict, a bazillion times they've said it's gonna be this exact time.” And it was up early. But because it was early, I was like, well, it's obviously not accurate. They're gonna change it when like seven o'clock- or whatever the time was- hits. (Rilee and Josey laugh) Until I was sworn in and they sent me the bar card, I was like, this is... Someone's gonna call me and tell me…

Rilee: Sounds like we need to do an episode on imposter syndrome. 

Kate: Probably a season on imposter syndrome. 

Rilee: (Laughing) A whole series.

Josey: That'll be the next podcast.

Kate: Yeah. (Laughing) Exactly, The Legal Imposters. 

(Josey laughs)

Rilee: I call getting to be a host of that with y'all.

Kate: Josey's like, “Don't give Kate another project. She'll actually do it.”

Josey: Yeah, you have to be careful what you mention to Kate about projects because she'll- she’ll run with it and the next thing I know I'll be right there with her. (All laugh) Bringing it back to Rilee, I would love to hear a bit more about kind of your law school journey: One, what the burnout was like in law school, and then kind of what led to you taking the bar and failing and then going back to do it again.

Rilee: Yeah. I worked harder than I've ever worked in my entire life my first semester of law school. I had never studied like that, I had never treated school like that. I did okay, but I wasn't like in the top like 25% or anything, right? Like I was in like the top half, and I'd worked harder than I'd ever worked in anything in my entire life.

My mental health wasn't good and I wasn't sleeping well. I kind of just told myself like, “I can't do that ever again.” This sounds kind of crazy, but the first semester burnt me out.

Kate: Mhmm.

Rilee: Everyone there, you know, is smart, has figured out whatever they figured out to get there. And it was hard being on a curve. After that, I really… I really didn't have the will to do that ever again. And so I just kind of took the foot off the gas a little bit, and I sort of reverted to my old ways of, do I really need to care about grades or should I just start being involved in stuff? That's kind of what I did, and that's kind of what I focused on. 

And then I started getting, like I started taking courses that were experiential courses where you're meeting with clients or where you're negotiating. 

Kate: That’s where it’s at. 

Rilee: And I was like, okay, now I don't even want to ever be in a classroom ever again (Kate laughs), because I hate it, and I'm really good at this stuff! In the real world, how often am I going to be researching a constitutional law case from 1878? You know what I mean? I'm not.

Kate: Right!

Rilee: How often am I gonna be in a courtroom? Hopefully a lot. 

Kate: It's so impractical! I remembered the most case law from those classes, too, because you're actually applying it to someone's life. 

And it's interesting that you said that you went into law school and went so hard the first semester because I felt like one of the benefits of being an older student- I went in my late 20s... When I got to law school, I was very determined that I didn't want it to be my entire life. By that point, I was married and had other things going on, and I just… I still worked very hard and I studied very hard. But I- When I listen to the other people around me talking, I'm okay being in the middle of this group of people. If this is the group I'm in the middle of, I'm still proud of that. So I let that go pretty early, but I do think that is why I didn't burn out in law school, because I would have expected myself to.

Rilee: Yeah, I really think that's what did it for me was that first semester going as hard as I did. And then, that first year, all the classes, I mean… None of them are really stuff you really use too much in the real world, right? I do personal injury work. How often am I thinking about tort principles? 

Kate: You don't run through the basics of negligence every day?!

Rilee: Yeah I think of Palsgraf every single day.

(Kate laughs)

Kate: God, I forgot about Palsgraf.

Rilee: You do learn how to analyze cases and that's good. But then like that second and third year, I was the president of the Business Law Society, that's what I thought I was going to do. I got kind of stuck because I was trying to do that program. And so I'm doing all these weird subset of courses. And then I realized that I'm never gonna actually do anything with them. 

I guess my thought on the classes and stuff is, is that first year is great because it's like you learn all of the, you know, you do learn how to analyze cases and you learn how to write and do those things. Second and third year, I don't really get it. (Kate laughs) I really think you would be, even if that's what you're going to go into, you would almost be better off just going and learning it from someone who's doing it.

Maybe like skills courses second year and then third year is just like internships, or kind of like doctors do with like a residency type thing. To me, that just is a whole lot more practical. It's just really difficult to understand why it's a three-year process. I frankly don't understand why I had to get an undergrad degree that didn't matter. Like I could get- I know people with music degrees that went to law school. I know people with- Kate, you may have told me, you may not… You said you were an actress. Did you do like a performance background in undergrad? 

Kate: Not in undergrad, so I actually- I went to drama school right out of high school–

Rilee: Okay.

Kate: -- and that was like an associate's degree. 

Rilee: There's a drama school for associates degree?

Josey: I learned that too!

Kate: Yeah, they'll give you an associate's in theater, yeah.

Rilee: Okay. 

Kate: But yeah, in undergrad, it was- I worked with chimpanzees. I was doing primate behavior and ecology. Nothing to do... I mean, something to do with law in a way. 

I actually did write a paper in law school about how human behavior in negotiation and mediation can mirror chimpanzee and other primate behaviors. (Rilee and Josey laugh) It's a lot of displaying. Chimpanzees, usually, if they can settle something by just being loud and not actually fighting, they're gonna do it. You know, they get very loud, they get very big, their hair stands on end, they throw stuff around the room and they bang on things and make a lot of noise, and then figure out who wants to back off after that.

(Kate laughs)

Josey: You were talking about the last two years not being as necessary, or undergrad- not needing an undergrad degree before you went. What, if anything, do you think is helpful before going to law school or would have prepared you better for going to law school?

Rilee: I think job shadowing would have prepared me a little bit better. I did work for a year for a law firm before I went to law school. So yeah, I would recommend that. I think that my also my favorite classes in undergrad were taught by adjunct lawyers. I had a professor that ran a pretty big family law practice. I think taking classes and being around people that are in the profession really helps the most. One, you can learn how to interact with lawyers and kind of what those personality types are like, and learning kind of what the ins and outs and the job actually looks like is actually something that can be really helpful. 

Kate: And I think it would affect people's decision whether or not they actually want to go to law school, because the practicalities of being a lawyer are not what you're sold when you're being sold law school. You get sold the linear path a lot of the time. And if you're actually shadowing people, you might meet more people who didn't take that linear path, and who maybe have an interest that's more aligned with yours, and that can give you the great advice that you need to get through law school and keep your eye on what you really want. 

I shouted him out in the first episode too, but my Civ. Pro. professor, I talked to him and I told him, “I'm not here to be a lawyer. I'm here because I,” at the time, “I wanna join the FBI. I wanna be Clarice Starling.” (Rilee and Josey laugh) And he was like, “Just keep repeating that to yourself because there are gonna be plenty of people who are gonna try and get you to go into the courtroom, who are gonna try and pull you in those other directions or go to a firm. Just keep saying, ‘I wanna be Clarice Starling.’” 

And it was hard because the external pressures on you… Like you said, Rilee, being graded on a curve, it just fosters this sense of comparison to your classmates. And comparing yourself with them and seeing,”That person's doing all of these activities. Should I be more involved if I wanna succeed?” And the message does not get sent enough that you can succeed in whatever way works for you. 

Rilee: I think that's a very, very good point. Say that you're required before going to law school to do, I don't know, clerking or doing something in big law, then in a midsize firm, and with a solo: You're going to see the differences in like what that could look like for a lifestyle and a life and all that stuff. I know that's probably impractical working in all those spaces, but what's better: Going to college for four years and getting a degree in nothing to do with law, or, you know, actually being in that industry for a year or two you know learning about whether or not it makes sense for you?

Kate: It could be like summer internships. Ideally people could get paid for doing that.

Rilee: In a perfect world.

Kate: Yeah, and that could help them be on steadier footing when they go into law school, not only in the way that they are more aware of what they're getting into, but maybe they have more financial security. 

Rilee: I mean obviously part of undergrad is really just making sure you can follow directions, you can, you know…

Kate: Become an adult.

Rilee: Exactly. But at the same time, it was four years, like I could have been… I could have been learning about law. Like right now if I'd only had to do two years of that or something, I could be seven or eight years into my career. I could have a couple more jury trials under my belt, I could have helped more people. Maybe I'm a little bit of an idealist, but I really do feel like what I do helps people. I know the whole personal injury thing. I get it and stuff. But like, whenever you really help someone who like, is actually catastrophically injured and stuff and you see them have enough money to actually take care of themselves moving forward. I mean, it's a really cool feeling. And I could have done more of that. 

But yeah, so you go through- you go through undergrad. Then you have to go through law school.

Kate: First you have to take the LSAT.

Rilee: Yes, you do have to take the LSAT. I forgot about that. And that wasn't fun either. I think I took it twice and I didn't do great. I literally thought to myself that how I'm going to get into law school is I was so involved in undergrad. I didn't get into the flagship school in Oklahoma. I got waitlisted. You know, I didn't get to go to that first option. That's one dig in the burnout right there, right? I worked so hard for four years, I felt like, to not get what I wanted. 

But then you go to law school, the first year's awful. The second two years, you don't- If you're really thinking about it, you're like, why am I doing this? I'm just spending 30 grand a semester or whatever the heck I'm doing to take courses about finance that I'm never gonna use.

And then you have to take the bar exam. And that's horrible. I'll tell my little- my little bar exam story. I go to Arkansas, but I'm gonna take the Oklahoma bar. My girlfriend, wife now, she had already moved back like a month and a half before that and started her job in Oklahoma City. And I graduated on a Saturday. The… Arkansas, all the students started studying for the bar that Monday. Got to Oklahoma City, got everything unpacked, was gonna start studying on Thursday. I sit down with Barbri to start studying, and it says, “Oh yeah, you're supposed to be a third done with the program.” 

(Kate laughs incredulously)

And I'm like… “Huh? Like what are you talking about?” And OU and- OCU and Tulsa had graduated two weeks before Arkansas had, so they had already started with the whole program. 

Kate: Ooohhhhhh.

Rilee: So I start trying to play catch up. And essentially what happens is Oklahoma at the time, they had the MBE and then you took… It was a- four two hour sessions. Each session was four essays that you had to complete. So it was 16 essays total. 

A couple of days before the bar exam, I realized, I was like, “Oh my God, I can't get through all of these topics.” I just didn't have enough time. You actually, if you didn't pass, you got your stuff back. I crushed 10 essays, like way above the deal. And then two of the 16, I was above 75, and I only had four that were under 75. Some grader gave me a 17 on an essay-- 

Kate: Je-sus!

Rilee: --and a 23 on another and I didn't pass by like, seven total points.

Kate: Did you know it was the same grader for both of those? 

Rilee: They were the same topic. So I am assuming.

Kate: Ooohhh. A friend of mine had that happen too. She took three bar exams. She passed like New York and DC with flying colors. And- Well, I guess you don't know if it's flying colors, but she passed. And then the third one, it was one essay. She was like, “What I failed?” She got her results back and it was just clearly somebody who had gotten up on the wrong side of the bed. It was very similar to other answers she'd given on- that did pass. And so she failed it and had to retake it, which was ridiculous. And thankfully she was with a firm that was very understanding, But that that can affect it? Another source of burnout! All that work.

Rilee: So if I had made like a 40 on one of those essays, I passed the bar the first try. 

Kate: Wow.

Rilee: So I was devastated. That was the first time I'd ever like failed anything. I mean, talk about burnout and like, what do I do now? What do I do next? 

Kate: Crushing. 

Rilee: It was a very, very low period. I was jealous of everyone. My mental health was awful. I wasn't a good person. I wasn't fun to be around. 

Luckily, after a few weeks, my girlfriend then, wife now, was like, “Snap out of it. This isn't you. You need to get back on it and do it.” And we talked about it and I kind of changed- changed my attitude around and got a lot more positive. Worked really hard, set up a good plan, and honestly that was probably the healthiest and like best plan I've ever had. It wasn't like my 1L year where I like burnt myself out, it was like, I have a true goal. I actually planned a week after I got bar results to propose.

Kate: Oooooohhh!

Rilee: And told myself I'm going to pass this because if I faill it and then propose, that would be awful. (Kate laughs) So that was a thing I set for myself as a goal. I got up, I went to work every morning, I worked out after work. Blake and I would eat dinner together every night. That was a non-negotiable. 

Then we would sit on the couch and we would watch a show together, and I would pull out my laptop, I would start doing some MBE questions or something while we did the show. Then she would go to the room about 8 or 8:30. I would sit out in the living room until midnight every night. I did that for three months. Passed the second time.

I struggle with it because it was burnout and it was awful, but it really did... In the long run, it was one of the better things that ever happened to me because I learned a lot about myself. It was a good thing, because I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't have failed that exam.

Kate: Yeah.

Rilee: And it made me a better person. It just gave me a whole new outlook on life that I needed. But it was awful at the same time. 

(Kate and Rilee laugh)

Then I do pass the bar. I loved the people I worked with, but it just, it wasn't a great fit. They had never really trained anyone. And I wasn't the kind of person that just got it myself. I really needed training wheels. And I was really thrown in and really overwhelmed me and I didn't do very well. And that's not their fault. That's- a lot of that's on me. 

Kate: I do think that burnout can be transformational.

Josey: I think case in point is us.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Even if you get out of traditional law, even if it's not the thing that keeps you in it, it can still be one of the best learning experiences that you go through, I think it has been for me.

Kate: Yeah, you definitely learn a lot about yourself.

Josey: Yeah, and just like reassessing your goals. I mean, Rilee, you were still working a lot and it was a burnout experience, but the second time around, you did set some healthy boundaries and some things that you did differently to keep yourself sustained. And that's the entire point of any time you burn out is learning how to reassess and then approach it differently.

Rilee: No, I 100% agree with that. I think what's been interesting in kind of exploring this whole burnout topic for me is that I think being burnt out from all the crap that I had to get to get to that point was why I failed the test. I couldn't sustain after that first semester wanting to keep working that hard. And I was very jaded to anything really law because I just wasn't- I didn't enjoy it. I had great friends, I had a really good time, I met a ton of people. But I didn't enjoy the school side. 

And then I'm confronted with this test that's just one more school obstacle that I hated already. So it was hard. It really was. And I think that for someone who doesn't enjoy the school side, you really get burned out.

Kate: I'm curious to know how much you knew about how law school worked before you went into it, because I knew nothing. I did not do research about the practicalities of being in law school. I did not know everything was graded on a curve. I didn't know that your finals were your entire grade for the whole class. 

Like in undergrad, you at least get kind of feedback along the way, and tests and quizzes and papers and things that let you- if you're obsessive like I was- calculate what your grade is going to be and how many points you need to get on your final in order to still make an A, and blah, blah blah blah blah. hich is all stuff that I did. You can't do that in law school. You just have to show up and hope for the best on your finals. 

That was all stuff that really threw me off and really made me enjoy the law school experience a lot less. So I'm curious Rilee, if you knew about those things going in.

Rilee: All I really knew was that after I got done, I was gonna be able to tell people I'm a lawyer and I'm cool and I'm a badass. (Kate laughs) I'm a lawyer, what up? On a real note, I- That was real, but on another real note… (Josey laughs) I knew some. I had looked it up a little bit and stuff, but I didn't… You should almost have to see like a therapist before you go or something. (Kate laughs) That's all I can say, because I didn't know how it was going to affect me mentally and how much stress I was going to put on myself. Maybe other people just are better about not putting stress on theirself, but I put a lot of stress on myself.

Kate: I don't know that anyone who goes into it is that good at not putting stress on themselves, to be honest. I…

Rilee: Yeah.

Kate: I think I was kind of the most laid back person that I knew in law school. (Laughing) And I was stressed as hell, so I don't know… (Rilee laughs) I don't know that anyone really goes into it who doesn't put that internal pressure on themselves. If you're out there, please contact us. We'd love to speak to you about how you do that.

(Kate and Rilee laugh)

Josey: Yes. It's funny because all I do is research. My execution isn't always great, but I will research the hell out of anything before I do it. (Kate and Rilee laugh) I will research it to death. I have to know everything before I commit to something and I won't do it until I feel like I've gathered enough information.

So for me, when I knew I wanted to go into law, I was like, “Well, I have to do everything to put myself in the situations to have the experience, to learn, to have those recommendations from people in it in order to do well at it.” Because I was already, in undergrad, thinking, “This is bullshit, it’s not preparing me for anything I want to do.” So I'm going to assume that the American education system is just never going to prepare me properly. 

(Kate laughs)

Rilee: There you go.

Kate: So I know you graduated and then you found out that you were a little behind on the bar exam, but did you feel like there were any other factors too that led to you not passing the first time?

Rilee: Yeah, so… Since that first semester, I had never really studied much. I remember my roommate, he goes, “You never study.” And I was like, “Yeah, I don't.” I was like, I'm so over it, I hate it. It made it really hard for me to get back into it, because I had for two and a half years had really not studied much. So that was a big part of it. 

The stress that I went through when I realized I was behind was awful. And I had bartended and waited tables all through college. I was going to wait tables that summer to make some extra cash. And I did like two shifts and I was like, “I can't do this.”

My little dog that I still have, his name’s Blitz. The day that I quit and said I wasn't going to wait tables, I've got to just study for this stupid test… He destroyed my phone. Ate it. (Kate gasps) And I remember just sitting there and bawling because I couldn't afford to buy another phone. And I didn't know what I was going to do.

Kate: Oh my god!

Rilee: And I had just quit the one job that I did have. And then I took a loan out.

Kate: Oh my God, you had to take out a loan to study for the bar?! That's insane. Like this is part of the inequities that we talk about a lot about this process is like… The expectation that you are going to be able to not work, and not burn out while not working- Because one source of burnout can be not having the financial resources that you need. And if you can't get those financial resources while you're studying for this exceptionally stressful…

Rilee: Well, and sleep was one of the hardest things. Sleep was so hard for me, turning my brain off. You may cut this out. I don't know. I don't, I don't care that it's out there. It's totally fine. It's up to y'all, but… I used to have to- And I really do say I have to. Like I had to smoke marijuana to help me go to sleep at night and turn off.

Kate: Yeah.

Rilee: That was something that I did a little bit in undergrad, not really, that I started doing in law school because I was so stressed out. I would wake up in the middle of the night freaking out about not studying and it just wasn't healthy. It was bad. And so marijuana helped me a lot during law school to turn my brain off at night. 

After I started with the second firm I was at and things started going really well for me, it was like a month that went by and I had some pot going to sleep. Because I didn't need it anymore. I had no problem going to sleep. I was happy with what I was doing. I felt secure for the first time in my life. And that's kind of when I started like learning about social media, and that kind of started growing a little bit for me. 

Kate: I mean, thank God it was just pot, right? The beginning of law school for me was a lot of… Like, our orientation was essentially them telling us how likely it was that we were going to get addicted to drugs and alcohol, and essentially begging us not to kill ourselves. 

Rilee: Yeah.

Kate: That should have probably been a pretty big red flag for me, but hey, I was already in it at that point. 

(Rilee and Kate laugh)

Josey: This is all stuff you learn, by the way, if you like work before a law school in a law firm.

Kate: Heyyyy!

Rilee: That’s a great point.  

Josey: Just would like to put that out there for people is like, if you actually do the work, you do learn these things. It's not always about a test or school that prepares you for these things. 

Rilee: No. And I, again, I think it's really interesting like we talked about it… The anxiety and the stress and all the things that it causes because of the way the system is set up. You know, I love Liz. Liz is one of my favorite people and I know she's on y'all's podcast. I haven't heard the episode yet. I can't wait. But we do differ a little bit, right? I kind of do think there needs to be some sort of test because I think that if you are really wealthy, you could just, your parents could pay for your law school. 

Kate: Mm.

Rilee: It’s definitely not the test we have. And even it could be like a… If you do so many hours of practicing, right, or so many hours of doing something like pro bono, that could be how you get in if testing doesn't work for you. 

Josey: Yes.

Rilee: But anyways, I remember being just like broken whenever I sat down and I looked at my phone and it was, uh, and it had been just destroyed. It was really hard to come back from that. And I didn't come back from that, I failed. So I mean, it uh…

(Rilee and Kate laugh) 

Kate: Well you did eventually!

Rilee: I did eventually. But anyways, so yeah. And then I guess kind of the last leg of it, right, is you do finally pass the exam and then you start working. And that's not glorious like you think it's going to be. For some, it might be. But my experience was, again, they had never really trained an associate and I needed, I needed guidance.

I was looking at quitting being a lawyer. I was looking at sales jobs, I was looking at jobs in corporate, I thought about going into real estate, and it was so hard because I would apply for something and they would tell me I was overqualified for their entry level position. So it was like, are you fucking kidding me? I'm stuck in this goddamn profession after- Because I want to get out and you're telling me I'm overqualified to go do anything else?!

Kate: We've made it such a prestigious thing, we've been up so up our own asses about it and how prestigious it is that when people see it on your resume, they're like, “Well, you shouldn't be here.”

Josey: Go into legal tech sales, they'll love it. You know, if you ever need an alternative career, legal tech is… Really values as a JD.

Rilee: Yes, 100%. 

Kate: Yeah. It’s the place to be. So what turned it around for you, Rilee? Like what made you stay in it? 

Rilee: So bviously COVID was terrible. And it was so bad for so many people. For me, it actually was just kind of a perfect storm. The firm I was at, they sort of had like a process with attorneys where you start out at a base and then if you last six months, you get, you know, a big bump. If you last a year, you get a big bump.

Well, I started that job in January of 2020. And I remember in March being talking to my wife and being like, “Well, I'm probably gonna lose my job, this is going to be awful.” Well, what really happened on the flip side of it was we actually were able to settle a ton of cases and did like four to five times our quota in April of 2020. 

Kate: Wow.

Rilee: And it was me and my boss. And midway through, like early on that month, I just kind of stopped shadowing and just started doing. And I really did well. And then I start kind of bringing in some cases too. And I was posting and it was just like friends from law school or like family and stuff kind of knew about it. And then I was like, you know, what about if I just started following people? Maybe I'll get to know some people and learn about their stories and, and contact. 

And so I just started following people and people started following me back. And then just like all of a sudden it just, I, some of my tweets, people started resonating with them. I try to be really real on there. And I've always told people I'm going to talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff. And I was open about not passing the bar and I’ve had law students reach out to me over the last few years and ask me if they could just talk to me. And I've just done calls with them and just talk to people about kind of my story. People didn't pass the bar and stuff, which has been kind of cool. 

In the summer, my boss at the time had zero interest in being anywhere near anyone during COVID. And so he said, “Hey, the court's going to open back up. I'll prep you and you're going to go do the trials yourself.” So I did 17 bench trials in six months. Loved it. And kind of at the same time, my social media kind of started creeping up and kind of blowing up.

I think your specific question was, “What changed it for you?” Kind of just everything. I had never felt failure, but I don't think I'd ever really felt success either. And success is like, it's personal to you. And so like in that moment at that time in my life, I was like, “This is what I've always wanted. And I feel like this is what success looks like.” And so I think that that's what changed everything for me. And it's just kind of gotten better and better. I mean, it's harder. I have more responsibilities now, but it has gotten better and better. 

Josey: Overcoming obstacles. I love it. You know, if there's anything that you would want to tell young attorneys or any attorney really kind of dealing with burnout, what would you say to them?

Rilee: People going to law school, I would say reach out to lawyers. Reach out to me. Go on social media. There are plenty of attorneys that would love to talk to you. Bob Simon, everyone should reach out to Bob. Blow him up. He'll give you his cell phone. 

(Kate laughs)

At least the network I've built are people that really do care about people and would talk to someone wanting to go to law school, would talk to someone in law school, would talk to someone that's a first-year personal injury attorney that needs help on a case.

My second thing is, really think about what you want to do. Does it make sense to take those kind of loans out and be married to that? Not every area of the law pays in the way that you think when you think of like lawyer money. And you're gonna have those student loans forever maybe. So be smart, think about it and really think if it's something that you wanna do. 

Law school, network. It is important. And I know we've talked about it and we've kind of joked about it and stuff, but get to know people. Your grades matter, but you don't want to be adversarial with every single person. Treat people right. I think that's a good life lesson, but I think it's important in law school too. Everyone knows the assholes and the people that don't treat people well. 

(Kate laughs)

Once you get out and you do start practicing, I know this is, uh, I know this is like cliche, but like, really do find a mentor. I joined like our Oklahoma Association for Justice. They had a mentor-mentee program. The guy I got slated with was incredible. Having a mentor like Michael who had been practicing for 40 years and literally was just a walking encyclopedia. Like he's tried 75, 80 cases. And so just being able to call him and talk to him. And people that have that experience, they are typically, they're willing to talk to you. Don't be shy on that. Be willing to talk to people, be willing to get to know people that are in that same industry and space as you. 

Josey: That’s great advice.

Kate: It is. And speaking of Bob, I think his piece of advice that he gave on his episode was find a mentor whose life overall looks like what you want. Find the person who has the work-life balance you want and talk to them and find out how they do it. 

And I just, I loved that piece of advice because I think it also speaks to people like me. I'm not a big- I was opposite of you, Rilee, like I was like, “I don't want to be in any clubs. I don't want forced socialization. I don't want any of that stuff.” And the mentor-mentee thing does not come naturally to me. But I think if you can find someone else who practices the way you want to practice and has the life that you want to have and find a mentor that way, then it's going to be a much more natural relationship. Some of those other mentor-mentee relationships can feel a little forced. 

Rilee: Those are things that are, those are things that are hard for you, right? And so if you find someone else that has had to deal with those things, it could feel like a real safe space, which is really cool. And someone you can really talk to that has went through some of the things you've went through. 

Kate: Thank you, Rilee, so much again for being here. We really appreciate you sharing your story. We love that you get real about it.

Rilee: I hope it ends up being a good episode.

Josey: It was great. 

Outtro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.