Ashley Herd: This is my dog. I was at a coworking space today, and so when I come home to my house, I've not been there for like four or five hours… It is like a military homecoming, like one of those videos. 

Kate Bridal: I just brought Nate to the airport today, and my cats were both- It was the same thing. They were, like, “Oh my god!”

Josey Hoff: Yeah, my Google Home has a similar reaction when I get home, you know? It's like…

(Kate laughs.)

Ashley: (Laughing) What if asked, “Do you wanna do a podcast?” You're gonna be like, “Wait, what?”

Kate: What if my voice just started coming out of your Google Home?

Josey: (Laughing) I’d run away!

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it.

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 6

Kate: Honey, honey?

Josey: Yes, darling?

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

(Pause.)

Josey: Sure.

Kate: (Laughing) She leaves a longer and longer pause every time. One of these days, she's gonna quit on air. 

Ashley: She's gonna surprise you and be like, “No.”

Kate: “And never again.”

Ashley: Totally.

Josey: Yep. I've been, like, easing into it though. I feel like I need to get a few under my belt before I have the the right to do that. 

Kate: Well, I'm glad that you did say yes despite the long pause because we've got Ashley Heard here with us today who is the CEO and founder of Manager Method, which also happens to be her handle on social media. If you don't already follow her, you should. Manager Method helps employers and employees through training, coaching, and tools that are engaging and actionable. So welcome, Ashley. Thank you so much for being here with us.

Ashley: Hello, ladies. Good to be here.

Josey: Glad to have you.

Kate: (Abruptly) Thrilled. Thrilled. 

Ashley: (Laughing) “Thrilled.” “Thrilled” period. “Thrilled” period. 

Kate: (Very seriously, over-enunciating) Thrilled. The har- As harshly thrilled… 

Ashley: Begrudgingly. Begrudgingly thrilled. 

Kate: (Laughing) Not at all!

Josey: (Laughing) I don't know why I'm getting Veep vibes from us today, but-

Kate: I've been watching a lot of Veep, so that's probably my problem. 

Josey: That's probably it, yeah.

(All laugh)

Kate: Well, obviously, you are doing this management coaching now, which I think is super interesting and really important. And I would just love to hear a little bit about your journey kind of from law into the Manager Method stuff, and how you decided to make that transition. 

Ashley: Yeah. I mean, it's like a lot of decisions that kind of something comes to you, like, forced in by chance. I've been practicing law for about fifteen years and spent four years private practice. I always did employment law, always management-side employment law. And had after four years gone in-house. It's been about a decade in-house, and we moved around a bit geographically. And unlike now where it's a little easier to work promote, it wasn't as much. And so we moved when we had kids and then we moved abroad a bit to Australia.

And when we were living in in Australia and Sydney, I couldn't practice law. I would have had to take classes for two years, but I couldn't do it right away. And so as we were thinking about whether we'd wanna stay, I was like, okay, What kind of business can I do that, like, I wouldn't have to be qualified lawyer, but, like, what's what's something I like to do? And I thought about it and I was like, I really like helping people have difficult conversations. And I'm like, I feel like that's something that I'm good at, and I really enjoy. 

And I was- I thought about this business Manager Method. I bought the domain, I think I either made a free logo or maybe paid, like, five dollars for the logo. You know, probably got a hat, but really did- didn't do much with it because, like many things, especially being a lawyer I just was kind of, like, a bit- bit more risk-averse.

But in the pandemic, like a lot of things, it kind of shakes up. And I'd already started Manager Method in theory, but I really about two years ago went full bore and started Manager Method. So I took experience from legal and HR to really focus on helping managers be better for employees and create kind of tools along the way and training. And so everything I do leverages a legal background and HR without being legalese.

Kate: I love that. The “without legalese” is key I think, because even for people who are in the law, the language within different sections of the law- You know, like, I came out of nonprofit and started to talk to people who were in-house and firms, and it was like a different language of legalese. Or like a different dialect, I guess you could say.

Ashley: Totally. Right. Or like in-house, like, I had a friend that was just at the big in-house lawyers’ conference and she was showing a presentation. And I was like, “Oh my god, are those case cites on the page?” I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

How many presentations have you sat through that's like a deck and, like, the italics and, like, all properly formatted with the case cites? And you're like, like, that's- that's not what I wanna spend my mind thinking of. And they're so, like, robotic, you know, the point in the presentation when someone's like, “It depends!” 

(All laugh) 

And so just talking, to- People wanna know real information. And- and the law really matters. But far more, you're gonna have issues with, like, people, and- and the way you're connecting with people, and you can do good by that. And so I think talking like a human and stripping out some of this, like, the big words and the- the legal terms. Like, I try to avoid that every step I go. 

Kate: Yeah. And where did the social media part come in? Like, how did you decide to kind of get on TikTok and start this social media series with the fictional boss? Good old Luke. 

Ashley: I thought about it, in part, actually, because I had registered Manager Method as a trademark when I'd started my business. And I had, like, a Manager Method Twitter account. And someone reached out and they were like, “Hey, can I- I want- I'd like to take this over and do it some- for something different?” I was like, “Oh, this is actually my business,” and they were like, “Oh well, I guess that happens, but you're not really doing anything with it.” And I was like, (In French accent) “Challenge!” (All laugh.) Like, and so… I started my business! Like, I'm doing the best I can. I'm trying.

Kate: Back off!

Ashley: And so I was like, I'm gonna start things. And so I actually only got that the the actual ManagerMethod, all one word Twitter account a couple months ago. But- But I was like, “I'm gonna do TikTok,” because during even before the pandemic, like, I went on, like, a- a day long wine tour in the famous wine country of North Georgia… (Kate laughs) …with my co- with a couple colleagues, like, and we made a TikTok. I did one to, like, National Lampoon’s Vacation. 

Kate: Nice.

Ashley: I think you got, like, you know, fifteen hundred views or something. And I was, “Oh, that's so neat!” And so during the pandemic, I would do stuff with, like, my kids and- and all that. But as I was starting a business, I'm like, there's gotta be some way you can, like, ma- kind of make entertaining content, but make it informative.

And so part of it was, like, a challenge of wanting to, like, get my trademark actually used out there. But the other is that TikTok was, like, really easy to record on. And so when I first started it, like, I didn't have a microphone, I, like, could I- I'd have to Google to figure out how to add, like, text to a page. Like, I had no idea what I was doing. Like, it, like, you know, it was kind of hit or miss. And it was just it was, like, so easy and fun to do.

Kate: It's so fun, but it this learning curve for sure. 

Ashley: About a year ago, I got a microphone and started using my real voice. I gained, like, a hundred thousand followers in six weeks, and it was just kind of like-

Kate: Wow.

Ashley: - like that and then then it slows down, like, markedly.

Kate: Of course.

Ashley: But it just was kind of like a little bit- a little bit different. 

Josey: I had to laugh at the part when you said the italicized, like, case references and whatnot… Anytime there's a presentation where that's not done, I've been so annoyed. (Kate laughs) I remember- I- I'm not kidding, because that's how much it-

Kate: Josey’s a law nerd.

Ashley: Yeah. 

Josey: But also a paralegal. 

Ashley: Right.

Josey: But on the paralegal side, it's like, that was my life. It's like, if these things are not right, then what is my job? You know? (Ashley laughs) So, whenever I see those things, I'm like, “Oh my god.” Who's…? Sloppy. Just sloppy. Who's done this? (Kate laughs) And then it's like, I'm like, this isn't- Nobody cares, Josey. Nobody else cares about this.

Ashley: But that's important. It's really, it's really important to get it right. And, and, like, with my law firms, like, if I'm, like, working with outside council or anybody, I'm like, “Oh, no, it's important to get it right.” I'm like, I'm probably just gonna believe you. When you tell me, like, something says that, I'm like, (Laughing) “Good to know. Appreciate that!”

Josey: Yeah.

Ashley: I'm like, I-

Kate: Did you get the case from Chat GPT? No? Then I- Then I trust you. Yeah.

Ashley: (Laughing) Exactly! Yes. Now, actually, now, that's a good point. Now I'm probably gonna wanna read through those a little more robustly, for sure. 

Kate: And so you… I- I feel like a lot of us who wind up leaving the line one way or the other, it's always that point where you get forced. Like I was thinking about leaving the law because I was very burned out, but it wasn't until I found out where we were moving… That was my turning point where I started in earnest trying to not be an attorney anymore. And I love that thought that you had which was, “What do I like to do and what are then transferable skills that go into that?” 

But I would love to hear a little more about that thought process. I mean, a) how did you know you like helping people have difficult conversations? Like, did you ever do mediation or anything like that? (Ashley laughs) I'm very curious about that. And b) kind of how you actually figured out then what you could translate that into, because I think a lot of people struggle with that.

Ashley: Yeah. I mean, well, in law school, I was on the mediation team, which is hilarious. 

Kate: Nice.

Ashley: Because I'm, like, trying to think about, like, how did we compete? (Kate laughs) Like, you know, it's like the mediation team. I mean, I- I have a lot of cringe, like, lot of cringe things on my- on my resumé. That's one of them, being a competitive mediator. 

Kate: It feels a little antithetical to the whole purpose of mediation. 

Ashley: Totally! Totally. As I thought about it, I always had this kind of bent for for HR and strategy. And part of it is, despite being on the competitive mediation team, I'm not really a competitive person. In litigation I feel like you kinda you- you- you have to, and it sometimes it feels good to be like, “I won this.” But I very quickly afterwards would be like, “Yeah, legally we won, but, like, it was a bad situation and it could have been helped so much better.” And I always had such a bad taste in my mouth. And so I just hated that aspect of like, “Haha, I win, you lose, sanctions.” It just felt so, like, yucky.

So when I first went in-house, it was a public company, a billion dollar company with three lawyers. So you'd think, like, how did we get work done? Totally fine. I worked eight to five. It was- it was great, but a lot of what we tried to do was proactive things. And so when we were living in Australia, I- I became- it's when I became a GC. I would give proactive tips to the leaders about, like, how to have conversations, and this is why you have it. And it threaded kind of legal and HR.

I really enjoyed it. Every organization I’d worked at, a lot of the conversations were just that. Like, it wasn't really legal advice. It was like, “How do I have this conversation?” And it's just habit, like, building that muscle is one that people don't often do. And so that was an aspect that, like, I- I just found myself doing enough. And a lot of times what I would do to people is write out talking points because the worst thing to happen also is when then- When someone asks question, and, like, a manager is, like, “I don't know, let me go ask legal.” Well, don't say that! (Kate laughs) Like, then they're, like, “Oh, I- Do I need a lawyer?”

 And so, like, it it was kind of that aspect of, like, reflecting on it. And it’s like you say, Kate, like, you're moving. And so you're, you know, so you're thinking about, okay, what's my situation? And your options quickly have to become more clear. It kind of crystallized things. And so when we came back to the US, I was working for a large company. I was in legal and was becoming head of HR there. But I just really decided I just really had this idea for my business that I really wanted to pursue. 

Josey: So it wasn't so much that you burnt out from legal, but you were kinda pulled in this other direction that made more sense for what you were interested in.

Ashley: Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. I mean, some of it is, like, I do feel like I'm burned out of, like, constantly feeling like… I say it’s like a situational janitor. Cleanup aisle seven. Like, this happened. And oftentimes when when legal gets it, it's like, you know that everyone's been like, “Oh my god, are we gonna tell mom and dad?” Like, and except it's just me, just mom. It's in a far worse spot than if you talked about the outset. And so -- 

Josey: Mhmm. 

Ashley: -- it was really exhausting or having, like, there's such this expectation to be perfect. I mean, Josey, like, you talk about, like, the case cites, and like that needs to be perfect. And so often in any sort of legal role, there is this blanket expectation that you're perfect. And- and there's not many jobs like that. Like, sure, certainly medicine. Obviously, people want that. But also there's an understanding of, like, you know, you can't predict things. But in the law, people think you're like a wizard! And so there's this expectation of immediately knowing things that you'll get back to people immediately, that you’re like a bot, like you're perfect.

I- I take in stress I really internalize it. It's really unhealthy. And so for me, when I found an outlet that was like, okay, I'm gonna take a lot of really stressful situations I've gone through and flip them and try to help prevent them by, like, opening the aperture to people's eyes and being like, “This is how you could do something differently if this ever happens.” And for me, it's like, it literally has been like a weight off my shoulders to be proactive rather than reactive.

Kate: Yeah. Have you done any specialization with legal, like firms or legal-focused companies or anything like that?

Ashley: So now I really do very little legal work. Most of what I do now is training. But I do legal, so I'm still general counsel of a company. So a lot of what I do from, like, an industry focus is- is tech, quick service- so I worked at Yum brands, KFC, as in-house legal, kind of that quick service retail always really speaks to me- and then law firms, on like the the training- the training side.

Kate: Yeah. 

Actually, I've done a number of things on like talking performance. And so those are kind of the three areas in in particular.

Josey: In law firms, what are the common trends that you see or the things that you're training on and that are specific to them?

Ashley: I mean, I haven't labeled a course this way, but it's basically like how to be a good lawyer without- without being an asshole (Kate laughs) and how to rise up in law firms without being an asshole, so it's kind of two tracks. One is to teach more of that summer associate/junior lawyers of like, no, you don't have to be all caps. You don't have to email people intentionally on the weekends. 

The number one trap I've seen in frequently see is kind of like a fraternity hazing. “Well, I had it this way until be the same.” And I say fraternity or sorority because you- you sometimes see that with- with female lawyers as well-

Kate: Absolutely.

Ashley: -that really had it rough. “And I really had it rough.” Sometimes you have it and people are like, “I had it this way. So I'm gonna flip that and, like, I never want anyone to be like that.” 

Josey: Mhmm.

Ashley: But I think often, very common is, “I had it this way. And so I'm gonna be this way, and I had to have this layer of skin, and you are gonna have to be tougher and do everything better.” And I think it's a really dangerous and harmful message and an absolutely unnecessary message. 

But a lot of the themes are- are that or performance. Like, they don't know how to have a conversation. They can be good at giving a document back with red lines, but, like, you- they can't have a conversation and explain the whys behind it so that it sticks. They expect, like, kind of like a professor with an exam. Like, “Oh, well, they'll come to me if they have questions.”

Josey: Yes.

Kate: Yeah. 

Ashley: Professors with exams are like, “I have office hours.” Most law firm partners are not that way. They're like, “I'm super busy. And who are who are we gonna bill? We're not gonna bill the bill for this. So, like, figure it out on your own time.” That feedback and teaching but from a technical perspective and also modeling leadership and in making that path better, does not happen in law firms- and I mean, small, big, large, no matter the size- nearly enough, and that's pretty much universal. 

Josey: Yeah. And how many times do you schedule an appointment or time to do a little bit of mentorship with an attorney or an partner and have that time then taken over by a client or something else that happens. So it's just a whole scheduling issue too, even if they do have the time.

Kate: Yeah.

Ashley: A common thing I talk about my manager training is, like, one-on-ones, why you don't cancel one-on-ones with people. And unless it's, like, someone's on PTO, things like that, but it's the same thing. And, like, you schedule that, and you shouldn't- You really need to carve it out. And, yes, every once in a while there's emergency, but frequently, it's the first thing to move aside or someone shows up twenty minutes late and they're like, “Sorry.” Like… 

Kate: Uh huh.

Ashley: And I get it when you're in a client service industry, but you also have to be having conversations and say… As a client, as a client, I say this having been an in-house client: If I have a lawyer and says to me, “You know what? I wanna have this conversation, I wanna finish this, but I also have a mentoring time with my associate. This is our carved out time and it's really important to us and important for us to serve you that I talk through these things. And so, one, could I bring my associate in through the end of this conversation, we finish it up so they can hear how we do this, and we will not bill for your time? Or can we finish this up at a later time?”

I would give that firm… I'd be like, “Take all my business. Take all my business, all day long.” Because you have shown me, like, you're- you're able to communicate with me, you respect things, and you're trying to find these common sense approaches. And I might say, “No, I need the answer now.” I'm actually probably not gonna say that. (Kate laughs) But, like, but that's an approach that I think so many are, like, afraid to say. And I think there's such better ways of working.

Kate: That's so interesting because I've never thought about it… I've been saying firms need to figure out these cultural issues or they're not gonna be able to hire the next generation of attorneys, because Gen Z’s not gonna put up with it. But it's interesting to think about it from that other lens of, how are law firms gonna continue to get business from younger and younger… The next generation of in-house counsel attorneys, or the next generation of folks that they are having to do business with who are going to require that level of kind of compassion and conscientiousness that they're not necessarily used to delivering?

Ashley: Yeah. 

Kate: Very interesting point. 

Ashley: Yeah. I mean, you- you saw the tide turn a little bit when you saw some of the in-house departments, and there are fairly large organizations, that would say, “We're gonna have this diversity threshold. So- so I'm gonna sleep better at night because I'm gonna require you to have a certain percentage of your team be diverse or else, we're gonna cut your bill by thirty percent and move on the play.”

In my mind, it's such a short-sighted approach because frequently, that's it. And so you're not saying, “Okay, well, do you have that type of set- What kind support are you gonna provide? Are you just gonna throw people in and expect them all of a sudden to have the same experience, like, what resources are you providing?” So I think it's really important for in-house counsel and in-house leaders to be able to vocalize that and talk about what that looks like to say, “How are you mentoring your-your teams? What does that look like?” 

When you have the attitude of, like, no, I don't I don't want a law firm to bill me nine hundred dollars an hour for a first-year associate, that's absolutely ridiculous. But my point to law firms is how do you bake that your business model, so they're able to retain those without- without, you know, outsourcing the cost of your training to- to in-house clients? And, like, how can you do that in a more economic way. And so I I think there's a much broader conversation that in-house counsel absolutely have to have with law firms, and I think you're right. I think you're gonna see that more as new generations rise up in in-house leadership.

Josey: And I would argue that it's actually detrimental that they took the approach of, you know, just have this quota essentially of diversity, but that's it because then you bring in people, you know, to hit this quota. And- but you have, as you said, nothing in place. It's the people you're bringing in that are gonna be harmed. Also your business could be harmed too because they're not able to produce what you're hoping they can produce. And it becomes this whole issue of you're not getting your needs met, and they're also getting either burnt out or shit on. 

Kate: Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah.

Josey: Because there's nothing in place to help them. And that's detrimental to their career and future of the firm in general. I've been on the receiving end of this hire to kind of say they hire a woman or- or to try and get, you know, more people in, and them not have anything in place to make that a semi-pleasant work environment even for you. And what that does to my career then, because that contributed to my burnout. 

Ashley: Yeah. 

Kate: Or it can make you jump, like, jump careers faster too. It can make you- cause you to have more short stints on your resumé and people look down on that for, you know, one reason or another. Plus, numbers lie. I mean, that's the other problem with just saying, “We want you to diversify by thirty percent” or whatever it is. It's like, okay, they can hire thirty percent more white women. That's not really the call, right?

Ashley: I absolutely agree. And I think, Josey, your point is such a such a solid one. And it's the whole, it really is the whole the whole team. I'm curious, Josey, of, like, some of the best teams you worked on in a paralegal role, what- what those looked like? Like, what was, like, the- the hallmark that you saw that made that, like, a good team?

Josey: So the best team I worked at was in a big law firm. So often people don't expect that, but I think it can often be the opposite from a small firm because they do have the resources to put into DEI and different things like that: trainings, mentorship, other programs. But they also have a lot of eyes on them. And so the pressure to have a certain image and reputation is much higher. 

The team that I worked with there was comprised of a senior paralegal, quite a few associates, and then, an of counsel and a partner. And I would say that the associates were great, but the person… The par- the senior paralegal was amazing, and she took time out of her incredibly busy schedule. I don't think people realize how busy paralegals can be, to be honest. 

Ashley: No.

Josey: And she would take the time to really train me and is big part of why I had the- the success that I did there. But someone that you wouldn't have expected to give as much time and to put as much into my development and career was the of counsel. She was incredibly busy. Also working on Supreme Court cases, appellate work, litigation, all of it. And yet, she still found time to email me and ask, “Hey, what are you interested in? What type of briefs would you like to read? Would you like to be reading more of them and editing more? Is that more interesting to you than some of the other work that I have you doing?” Taking the time to have a lunch or or things of that sort. 

And at the time, I did wanna be an attorney. And so someone at that level never invests in a paralegal, a starting out paralegal, and she did, and that made all of the difference in my career. But also, I had several partners that were great as well. They didn't have the time to put that much into me as- as of counsel did, but they were always courteous as well. Now there are others that aren't because there's just… You have good people and bad people everywhere.

But what made the difference was the people that thought of what would I like to do with this job and not just what can you do for me? 

Ashley: Oh, I love that. 

Josey: And that was absolutely the game-changer in my career. I don't think I would have lasted as long in the field if I hadn't had that. 

Kate: I love that.

Ashley: That’s amazing.

Josey: I don't know if that answered the question very well.

(Josey laughs)

Ashley: No, it did! No, it literally did, because-

Kate: It was wonderful!

Ashley: I love the way you put that of, like, what can I do for you, and not just what what can you do for me? I mean, I think it encapsulates so much about leadership and that people take the time… And- and law firms are so hierarchical.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Exactly. 

Ashley: My mother was a- became a paralegal later in life, like, in her- in her late forties, and iis now general counsel for a state agency.

Kate: That's amazing!

Josey: Yeah. That's awesome. 

Ashley: It's amazing. And so- but that experience as a paralegal was like, so fundamental. And I remember her her fir- I mean, it was like she was part of the team, and she was so proud. Like, I'd come home and visit and, like, I'd come in and she'd be so excited to, like, introduce me to everybody on the team. She was so proud to have this, like, really good supportive team. And I think the paralegal’s often the secret sauce to any any good team. So.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah. And I mean, when I started at this firm, I was only a legal assistant. And so it was even then that they were investing. And my first time getting to go to the Supreme Court, I was not needed there. It was not a thing that- They didn't need to bring me. But, you know, she made a point of making room for me to be there because it was a case I had put some work into, and she knew that it would be an opportunity for me. 

And so it's just… Yes, she's incredibly busy. Yes, many of the attorneys were. But it takes really not much of your time to say, “Hey, Let me just set aside a ticket or a space for you to come to the Supreme Court,” or, “Let me send you one email to ask you if there's anything else you would like to do.” It's- it's a very minute part of your day, and it makes all the difference in the people that work for you. And it made me wanna work that much harder. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: You know, I'm already someone that will break myself for the work. But if you give me just an inch of, of… Show me any type of care or investment in my career, and I will stay up all hours of the night working if you want me to. (Kate and Ashley laugh.) You know? So that's- And that's many, many paralegals.

Kate: Don't do that to people, though! Don't make them stay up!

Josey: (Laughing) Dont, no!

Ashley: Don't!

I did this thing called, like, the Best Supporting Leader Awards. And it was, like, five or six different categories. And so I had these submissions. I read these submissions, and I was, like, crying. Like, you read it, and it's just like the way people affect… And so frequently, Josey, it's like that, that it's like very small actions from, like, a time standpoint in someone's life.

Multiple of them… Literally, I think one had a verbatim statement that was, like, “Still fifteen years later, if that person called me in the middle of night and asked me, I would walk seven hundred miles to go help this person in the night.”

Josey: Yeah. One hundred percent.

Ashley: And it's like you just, like, people show you and treat you like a human. And I- I think there would be such less burnout if, especially lawyers, realized how important it is to, like, tone down the adversarial stuff, even when you're zealously representing it doesn't have to be so hateful. And then also flipping that, internally with your teams, no matter what someone's title, asking, “What can I do for you? What would you like to do? And how can I, you know, make that happen?”

Josey: Yeah. And I will- I do have to call out HR too because people often talk very negatively about HR departments. And my experience, especially in that first very pivotal job for me, HR is truly what made that job possible, and what made it what it was, because she intentionally looked at my interests and things that I wanted when I was coming into the job and placed me with this person, you know, made me–

Ashley: Right

Josey: -- the person that supports her because she knew that it would be something that could give back to me and I what was interested in in as well. Had she not had that thought into my career, not just into the attorneys that she was serving- because so often you do put importance on what is best for the the top people… Had she not invested in what's best for me as well, I would never have had that opportunity.

Ashley: I love that. I get- I mean, I get a ton of, like, “HR's the worst. HR's not your friend.” I'm like, “They're not, that's not their job,” but…

Kate: (Laughing) Any industry dominated by women is gonna get shit on.

Ashely: (Laughing) Exactly. But I- but often I'm like, you know, you have buckets. Like, any job, there's bad people in their job. Okay. There's also I'm like, it's really hard for HR sometimes to find their voice.

And so that HR in a law firm environment was empowered to make these decisions and be like, “Okay. This isn't…” Because frequently, especially if it's like the rainmaker type of like, okay, we'll put the right person here and they'll stay as we'll we'll have them stay as long as they can they can handle it. But to be able to have that decision does speak volumes about the leadership overall, because it's not always easy for people to make that recommendation and know that it's gonna benefit more people than just the person that's bringing in, you know, millions of dollars. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Exactly. And she always had the… Every meeting that I ever had with her and that she had with the team at large was, “If an attorney, even if it's the top partner here, is not treating you with respect, you come to me and I will deal with it.”

Ashley: Wow!

Josey: “You know, I will advocate for you. I will do this, because…” And that, you know, that's not to say she was like, “I'm gonna go kick some partner ass!” Like, it wasn't that, it was just more of, “I'm here to protect every employee…”

Ashley: Yep. 

Josey: “...And as- especially as your manager, no one in the firm should be mistreated, should be disrespected.”

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: That was the case. She was really great at advocating. 

Ashley: That's awesome. 

Kate: Yeah. That's amazing. And kind- of kind of on that note, Ashley. I mean, especially in these firm environments where as you said, it is so hierarchical and those rainmakers and those partners can really kind of dominate everything: How do you empower employees or HR departments or other folks who are working under those people to stand up for themselves or to ask- draw boundaries or ask for some of the things that might make the environment better?

Ashley: What I generally say to people is a couple things. One, you have to know your environment. And you have to you have to work within what's presented to you. And, yes, the law has many things. And if you're retaliated against, you can go and pursue that claim. Then there's times where people are like, I have this other opportunity. What should I pursue? And I'm like, everyone doesn't have to be Norma Rae. And- and and it's okay if you are, like, “For my own survival, I need to get of this environment.” And sometimes that's the right choice for people. And so I say to people, like, ideally you can do that. And that's me being realistic. 

My preference is that people have an avenue. Whether that is, a daily talking to the person directly. Frequently in a law firm that is so hard to do. So impossibly hard to do. I tell people whatever the conversation, you always have to think of, like, how am I gonna meet this person where they are? And so, if- if you're talking to a rainmaker, so maybe it is taking on that tough thing and being like, “You know what? I am damn good at my job, and I wanna do things, and I wanna make you- and I wanna make you money. And I wanna make- and I wanna serve these clients, and I wanna do these things. But let me be honest with you of, like, this is what’s standing in my way.”

 Sometimes there may be rainmakers that would take that appropriately. Other times, like, it's- it's gonna get you a fast track to them being, like, “You're insubordinate,” which is one of my least favorite words in all of- in all of employment land. But ideally, it's- it's being able to have a real conversation with someone, but sometimes it is, like, drawing their attention to it.

Sometimes it's having that third party, having HR, or having having someone whose role it is to deliver that conversation and be a conduit and deal with it, and have those difficult conversations. Or it is a mentor. And that's why I think law firms that can have a mentor program that really is that… To say, “I'm having this challenge. How do I handle this?” and have that mentor really guide you through it. I think is really important.

I just think because of the rainmaker situation, I think a lot of law firms do a lot of lip service to that, and there's a lot that hand happens beneath the surface, and a lot of people taking the very first option I mentioned, which is to check out. And- and oftentimes checking out is, like, people go inhouse, and they're like, “Oh, this is, like, I wanted this anyway.” But but I do think too many people go through bad experiences and it taints them on their type of law firm, or the law for life, and it really takes really good people and has so many impacts in their professional and personal life.

And so as I work with people, I'm like, know where you are, and know what- First of all, know what you have do to preserve yourself. Also, like, read your handbook. What does it say? Because your firm or your company has to follow its handbook. And if they choose not to, then- then you should call attorney Ryan on- on, from from TikTok. But I, you know, seriously, I really- it really, like, breaks my heart and then some to see the things and know the things that people have to- to suffer with. And so the gap is the people that need to have the conversation on the receiving end frequently will not hear it, and are empowered not to hear it. 

Kate: The empowerment not to hear it. I- I feel like that's what I always struggle with when I'm thinking about this stuff. I have this exceptionally cynical side that's like, they don't care. They don't want to make things better for anyone because as you said, there's a lot of this attitude- It's funny, we talked about with Liz Gil as well in regards to the bar exam- of this attitude of, “It was bad for me, so it has to be bad for you.” And part of what kind of defines the prestige or whatever other bullshit around the law of, “Eell, I- I went through all of this hard stuff and it continues to be hard. I'm a warrior,” you know, whatever it is. 

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: And I- I think there's just so much of that at the top, especially right now in firms- and everywhere, everywhere in the law, it’s not just in firms- that makes it so problematic and difficult to speak out against. You know, what do you do when you're just like beating your head against the wall of this person? Especially if it's a place you would otherwise love to be working if there's a person who's just not hearing that and not taking feedback, I… It's not really a question that you have to have an answer to. I'm just like, what do you do? What do you do with that, you know, with that person? 

Ashley: Sometimes it's getting their attention. They may care the most about money and their own reputation. I mean, I do think the internet, from social media to Glassdoor, I think they start to change the game because that's when you can call people out. And- and I've seen it. And then I've been I've seen people be like, “Oh, is this defamation?” “And I'm like, no. That's really like an opinion.”

Kate: Or people, like, play dirty little tricks to get bad Glassdoor reviews taken down. 

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. 

Josey: Yeah, you can do that.

Kate: Those community guidelines…

Ashley: Yes. And so largely you see, like, you do see on social media and see the amplification of- of these stories in the quick rapid, rapid fire that you see. And so I think if you look at some of these, let's say, Lukes of the world that are like bad behavior, rainmaker, let's say- let's say your completely stereotypical, you know, person we're gonna talk about. They care about money and their reputation. But to say, “I wanna say this because I think I think you have a real chance of becoming a really bad headline, and I don't even know if you realize it.” (Josey laughs) Again, who's gonna have that conversation? Like, I'm happy to have that conversation with you. I mean, that's one thing I've had conversations with senior executives that are along those lines where I get their attention in different ways.

Kate: Wow.

Ashley: And I'm saying, like, “I'm saying this to you because I'm not gonna do my job. And and and I'm not gonna do my job for anybody, including you if I'm not gonna point this out in your choices or your choices, but they're gonna have ramifications overall for the organization.” It did- it takes a long time and a lot to, like, develop your voice in that area. So that's why I say to people that are going through that and the levels that worry about their voice being heard, that's where things like HR or the an- anonymous hotline. 

Every organization should have an anonymous, an anonymous hotline. And again, like, I know people that are like, “Oh, you can tell tell what it is.” But sometimes, like, that is the one outlet that people are like, “You know, I'm- I'm- I'm gonna leverage that.” And I wish organizations didn't have to have one, but I think every single one should. I don't offer that service, so it's not it's not sponsored content. 

Kate: Coming soon, the Manager Method hotline for you. Customizable.

(All laugh)

Ashley: Customizable! Customizable. But, no, but I just think providing that avenue- And what happens with those is, like, it doesn't go to some mystery oompa loompas behind the scenes. It goes back to the organization. Like, that's who's gonna look into your claims ninety-nine point nine percent of the time.

But being able to do that and have it heard with- with- and still be employed and try to, like… I- I think it's really important to have those mechanisms. I think there are a lot of organizations that actually do take those seriously. The problem is people often don't trust it because maybe they're seen or fear otherwise. 

Kate: Yeah. The being able to be heard while keeping your job, that's a big- a big key right there. 

Josey: Yeah.

Ashley: Honestly, if it's, like… If there's somebody that's, like, similarly, I think doing an anonymous complaint and being, like, “This firm is gonna go down like Barber Ranen (Josey and Kate laugh) if-if you don't- if you don't deal with this specific individual and here's five reasons why,” then I think- I have to say, the chief people officers and management, they're gonna hear you like they might not have heard you three weeks ago. And be like, “Oh, well, well, let's- okay. Let's take a peek into that.” Because I do think when those things happen and they see how that can affect people both from a- Reputationally and financially, sadly, I think that's the lever that- that levers that tend to get people's attention at times. 

Josey: I so appreciate the realest point of view of, you know, basically people are selfish and you kinda have to appeal to that side of them sometimes to get their attention. I think we can get so idealistic about, like, maybe people are just good and they'll wanna do it for the right reasons. But oftentimes, that's not always what leads change–

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: --especially at the top. And so you kinda have to figure out where to hit people in order to get something done a little bit, I think. But I'm also a little bit of a…

Ashley: No. I think it's- I'm an eternal optimist but sadly I've had the very realism beaten into me. And so I recognize that rather than just give up, sometimes I'm like, “Okay, I'll shift my message try to meet people where they are, and I'll try a different way.” Then it sometimes, it won't work out. But if you can show people, “If you treat people well, you'll make more money. I get that you care most about your money and your rep- your reputation.” And so -- 

Kate: Yeah.

Ashley: -- if that's what we have to aim for first. Okay. Let's start there and have all the benefits flow otherwise. 

Kate: Yeah. Make it about them. There are a lot of… Well, I hate when people are like- throw around the word “narcissist,” but I do think that there are a lot of narcissist and narcissist-adjacent personalities in the law. And also in tech, I feel like when the two intersect, there's a lot going on there. And the thing about narcissists, like, everything is about them, right? And yet they're responsible for nothing. You would think that if they're involved in absolutely everything, they would have to admit that once in a while something is their fault. No. 

(Josey laughs.)

Ashley: (Laughing) Unpredictable market conditions! What are you what are you talking about? We- we overhired. We're trying to do good and save as many people as possible, now this economy has come out, so we have to we have to consciously uncouple from… and we're- we're- we're gonna--

Kate: (Laughing) “Consciously uncouple!”

(Josey laughs)

Ashley: We're gonna show you our love with a week of severance and, you know, we're gonna wish you the best but- but that's, you know, that's what we're gonna… That's- that's all you can do. That's all you can really do.

Kate: Yeah. And especially, again, especially in law where there is this culture of you're rewarded for how hard you work, you’re expected to grind, you’re expected to put the work in and not say no… And especially when you're new, you know, that's even more difficult to stand up for yourself. Which, I think you had said to me at one point, you know, that's kind of ironic because attorneys make careers out of standing up for other people, and frequently have a lot of trouble doing it for themselves in the workplace. So have you seen that dynamic play out a little bit?

Ashley: Like in all my interactions, generally, like, I tend to be, like, really collegial. Like, I can’t tell you how many opposing counsel I'm, like, LinkedIn friends with. And I know that's not the right term, that's what I say, “LinkedIn friends.” There's also times that, like, my husband has heard me put on, like, serious Ashley voice, and I'm, like, “We will go there.” 

I get, like, a bill or something that's- and my husband's, like, “What's this charge?” I'm, like, “I don't know.” He's like, “Are you gonna call?” I'm, like, “Uh-uh. No.” (Kate laughs.) And he's like, “What?!” You know, I won’t pick up the phone and ask. He’s like, “You won't even call and ask what the charge is?” And I'm like, “Uh-uh. No, no, no, no, no.”

Kate: Oh, you could bring me an entirely wrong order of food that I am fully allergic to, and I would not send it back.

Ashley: It’s find, I’ll apologize! I will apologize. “Sorry. I must have misspoken!”

Kate: “I'm so sorry!”

Josey: No, I will eat it. Even if I hate, like-

Ashley: “Oh, can I leave a review somewhere? I’ll give you-”

Kate: “I'd love to give you five stars!”

Ashley: And also some of it is, like, I can't- you can't make any- I can't make any- any more decisions. I'm, like, I feel like I'm constantly deciding things for other people.

Kate: (Sighing) Oh my god. 

Josey: Mmhmm.

Ashley: And so I'm like, I- I can't decide.

Kate: Yep.

Ashley: I don't need more information. I can't decide. I need to sit here and watch Naked and Afraid, my favorite TV show.

Josey: Yes.

Ashley: Watch- watch all of their things unfold. And I know it's all gonna work out fine. I feel very at peace. (Kate laughs) And that's- that- I'm a very simple… a very simple person. 

Kate: That’s-

Josey: Queer Eye, man. 

Kate: Yes. 

Josey: At the end of the day after I've just done a lot, I need to turn on that positivity and see people getting help and love and all of it. And I'm just like, “This.”

Kate: And it's perfect ‘cause it makes me ugly cry, like, every episode too. So it's also very cathartic. I'm, like, always uplifted, but also just like, (Mimics loud sobbing) Like, every single time. 

Ashley: (Laughing) Right. Totally! Totally.

Kate: Like, (Tearfully) “Jonathan made him-”

Josey: “The world is a good place!”

Ashley: Kate, what's your other go-to? What's- Kate, what's your- besides Queer Eye, Josey, what's your- what's your go-to, like, mindless TV? 

Kate: I do a lot of true crime. But I go through phases of true crime where it's cathartic for me and other times I'm like, I can't. But law school made me appreciate stupid comedy like nothing else.

Josey: Parks and Rec.

Ashley: Love Parks and Rec. 

Kate: Yes, Parks and Rec. 

Ashley: Treat yo’ self.

Kate: (Singing) It's the best time of the year! (Josey laughs.) Yeah. Parks and Rec is great. Schitt’s Creek! Schitt’s Creek. That's my- that's my other go-to. 

Josey: Oh, that’s a good one. 

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: Like, a show that will not hurt you.

Ashley: Love a good House Hunters. 

Kate: Ooo, yeah. Reality TV.

Josey: Oh, that's a good one too.

Ashley: I watch a House Hunters every night before bed.

Josey: Yeah. 

Ashley: Every- Every night before bed. Literally, it's I mean, I'm not kidding. 

Kate: I love it.

Josey: Great British Baking Show? I can never say that quickly. 

Kate: Yes!

Ashley: Yeah.

Josey: That one's good. 

Kate: It’s so calming. 

Josey: That's what I watch when I wanna pretend that I'm, like, in old England, but, like, with modern liberal influence so that I'm free, but enjoying the, like, the classiness of my (inaudible)--

Ashley: Like Utopia! Utopia.

Josey: -- as I eat my little pop tart or something. Yes. Anyway, sorry. I think we derailed the conversation. 

Kate: It’s great. We just-

Ashley: Yep, off the topic. Totally. 

(All laugh)

Kate: So going back, you know, when you're new, obviously, that makes things harder. Have you, or do you do any work around how much more difficult it is to stand up in those work situations the further away you get from like cis and straight and white male? It's tougher for women, it's even harder for women of color, etcetera. Like, do you- do you encounter those dynamics a lot and- and that issue?

Ashley: I do. I mean, I- So, like, like, I'm doing a training coming up, for an organization, and they're gonna bring in another provider talk about that and actually trauma because it's a legal based nonprofit that does a lot of kind of traumatic work and there's a lot of DEI and so they're, like, gonna partner with that.

Kate: Oh!

Ashley:  And so I'm tight that I'm like, I will raise my hand when I'm- when I'm not the right person, but I'm very cognizant, and so I talk about these things. And so, like, when I do courses or when I do training, especially when it talks about employee concerns. You know, I talk a lot about the fact that, like, your experience, you gotta put it to the side. And you- you- you have to open up and being able to, like, think about what that experience is like for others and learn about it from others.

And that doesn't mean Michael Scott going around the office and being like, “Tell me what this is like,” and all of those horrible things from The Office that are hilarious and that also happen in real life, and you’re like, “Wait, that's not funny in real life.”

Kate: Yeah. It's too…Too real. 

Ashley: The number one thing I tell people is like, ask questions. I am not an expert in DEI. I- I talk about it, and the importance of, and give examples of, like, religious holidays and, like, it's what you say and what you don't say, and questions and things. But my number one is, like, just ask the person, “What's something I can do? What are things I can do for you?” And try to educate yourself as- as well as best you can so that they're not taking that burden and being like, “Well, let me teach you my ways.”

Kate: Yeah, that's what I was gonna say is, I like phrasing it that way because it's not like, “Explain white privilege to me.”

(Josey laughs)

Ashley: Yes. 

Kate: “Let me know what I should be thinking.” It's more of a- an- a nice, like, “help me help you” rather than putting the burden on them like you said. I- I love that. 

Ashley: Yeah. And that's what I think- That's where I think HR in organizations can do a real service and have real talk. One of my next things I'm building out is- is like an HR… Things you could lead as HR that are to teach managers- and it's real talk to things about, like, what you need to know about, like, religious holidays. And so to teach them internally, if you can have sessions and get it to people and get people information in real talk and say, “Here are some things you should have in consideration,” then that- You can move that needle even if it's just one percent.

Kate: Bringing things back to the topic of burnout generally…

Ashley: Wait, do you wanna talk about your actual podcast topic? What?

(Kate laughs.)

Josey: The topic’s loose, we've decided it's more of a title and less of a topic. 

Ashley: Okay.

Kate: But all of this stuff leads into it! Right? I mean, like, not knowing how to handle your managers, not having managers who know how to handle you. Like, all- it's all- it's all tied in, you know?

Ashley:  I think so. 

Kate: I feel like you can burn out under management either because management has the best of intentions, but they're not trained to be managers, which is something you sort of mentioned, which is obviously a problem in firms. I don't think any lawyers are trained to be managers. Not just in firms, a lot of positions in corporate America too, like…

Josey: I feel like people in general are not often trained to be managers.

Kate: No! So there's that aspect, but then there's also… Can be toxic management, right? That is, like, maybe more of that situation that you should think about… (Laughing) You gotta get out of there. 

Ashley: Yep.

Kate: What are some red flags that maybe the management is toxic and not just not trained?

Ashley: No, definitely. I think the number one thing I'd say always is trust your gut. If you're interviewing somewhere and they have a tough hiring process, and you’re like... Multiple people ask you questions like, “How do you deal with difficult people?” (Kate laughs) Then maybe you're the the breed of law firm employee that's, like, okay, I can work with those and I relish in that and I'm gonna try to change them. I know some legal assistants that are absolutely fantastic and candidly thrive in that because they find a difficult person to work with and they're able to, like, manage them.

But if you constantly feel people talking about this, and they feel like they're dancing, trust your gut and hear exactly what they're saying. And know, you know, you are probably working with the person that is subject of a Netflix series.

(Kate laughs)

But it it can be hard because in whether it's an economy right now or generally there's some places where people make you feel like it's a prize if you get this job. So just strip it out and don't think of it like the reality show of getting that offer letter. Think about your experience every single week. How is it actually gonna feel? Jobs don't have to be like, you're delighted every Sunday night. 

Kate: Right. 

Ashley: But I've had the difference between when I don't sleep on a Sunday night and when on a Sunday night, I'm like, you know, I actually look forward to going to tomorrow. I've seen the difference, and that that ripples to every single aspect of your life. So I'd say start in the hiring process and listen to what people are saying to you because that's your number one chance of escape, is to- to- to not take it in the first place.

That's why I think it's really important to understand whatever role you're in in a law firm in particular in that interview process, when you have interviews that you can talk to, like, a truth teller: Talking about, how does that look like? Like, what if you're working with someone and it is really difficult, like, it can you switch to another team or how do those things work? And I get that it can be really hard to ask those questions. But, ideally, you have that avenue because most people in law firms understand exactly what you're saying, and they want someone that's gonna come on on board as well.

Kate: Sometimes you don't get truth teller either -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- in the hir- Like, I've been the person that's been asked to, like, you know, talk to an incoming employee, and I have painted rosier pictures than I thought, because I loved the organization, truly. But like some of the struggles that I was having there… I also was putting a lot of those on myself and was like, “Well, that's just my problem.” And -- 

Ashley: Right.

Kate: -- sometimes you're like, “Well, I don't wanna discourage a potential employee away from this organization that I love, but also I don't want them to walk into something and not know what they're getting into.”

Ashley: It's really hard when you're put in that position because also you worry about the ramifications to you that you're like, okay. Well, what happens if I tell this person and then that person tells the recruiter, “Well, they've scared me off this role”? That, I mean, that's why it's so important to have these open channels of communication and have, like, a recruiting team. A lot of what I talk about with coaching is in the hiring process, be proactive of what things are like.

The better thing to do is if you're talking about something and you're like, “That sounds awful. I would never wanna tell candidate that…” Well, maybe try to change that. (Kate laughs) Like, that's- that's- that's- there's- you can always change those things. 

Kate: That's a great tip. If you're finding that you're having to hide certain things from your candidates, maybe have a look in the mirror. 

Ashley: Change it. You can have- you can have the power.

Kate: Well, this has been awesome, Ashley. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. Josey, did you have any other questions? I don't mean to cut off…

Josey: I do not have any more questions. This is just- It's one of those things where it's- you wanna sit back and listen because it's not your area of expertise, you know, management. That's not my area.

Kate: But if you ever become one, you know who to ask about methods.

Josey: Exactly. So, no, it's just, it's one of those conversations where it's nice to to sit back and absorb the the information. 

Ashley: Well that’s good. But, Josey, my highlight was definitely hearing about your para- like, your experience and your teams, (Josey laughs) and, like, the of counsel and, like, things that went out of the way. And so my challenge to you would be to reach out to her and be like, “You know what? I was talking on a podcast, I was talking about the things you did.” Because maybe she does hear from other people, but I think telling someone that and the impact that you've made is one of the best messages for people to receive. 

Josey: Yeah. I'm a big teacher's pet. So when I left the firm, I wrote this very lengthy a lengthy email detailing all of this. And since we've- I’ve stayed in contact with her and she's been my reference for many, many things. 

Ashley: That's awesome. 

Josey: She's- she's great. 

Kate: I'm bad about that. I have a professor in law school who- he was, like, my favorite professor. I was doing trial advocacy with him and I wound up with a very difficult opponent. My partner and I were up against this guy who really wet full, like, Paper Chase with it, like, very…

Ashley: (Groaning) Oh.

(Josey laughs)

Kate: …intense. Adversarial to the max. My partner in the class was also a woman. It was intense to the point that she and I both kind of got alarmed, and I brought it to the professor, and he was just really understanding about it. And weirdly, it was about a year later, I was watching the Kavanaugh hearing. And I was thinking about how difficult it is for women to speak up about men to other men and just started appreciating that so much smaller, obviously much less dramatic incident that I went through.

And I emailed him and told him, you know, like, “Hey, that... I- I don't know that you realized how difficult it was for- for us to, you know, bring that to you.” Because we had the conversation that women tend to have: Are we being drama queens? Are we…?

Ashley: Right. Right.

Kate: Is he gonna think we're being drama queens? 

Ashley: Should I just let it go? 

Josey: Are you overreacting? 

Kate: Mhmm.

Josey: Taking this personally...

Kate: Yeah. Thicker skin, da da da da da. Like, all of that. When I went to his office that day, I, like, had another excuse to go. I wasn't even sure that I was gonna tell him. 

Ashley: Wow. 

Kate: And he asked me how it was going, and he saw my face, and he just stood up from behind his desk and shut his door, and was like, “Tell me what's happening.”

Ashley: Wow.

Kate: I hadn't thought about it through that lens before I was watching those hearings. She and I were terrified because he was a guy, and even though he was a man that I trusted and I thought was good, you never know. They loved to surprise you in the worst ways. So- but I- I reached out to him and he was like… He hadn't thought about it in that light at all. 

Ashley: I'm sure. 

Kate: Well, and he was like, “I'm gonna think about this in future, with future, you know, students with these dynamics.” Because it wasn't something that had crossed his mind. And it wasn't at the time even crossing my mind. It was only on that reflection… But that's a whole story that I'll get into some other time maybe, but…

Ashley: Well, that's why we gotta keep listening to the podcast. Like and subscribe. 

(Kate and Josey laugh)

Kate: Yeah, like and subscribe. 

Josey: Next time on The Legal Burnouts... 

Kate: That's gonna be subscriber-only content when we have that. 

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Ashley: You know what? That's true. That's true.

Kate:  I'm gonna see that guy's name pop up in one of our subscribers and be like, “Oh, shit.” (All laugh.) He apologized, I will say, this guy. Afterwards.

Ashley: Wow, okay!

Kate: Well, Ashley, thank you again so much for for joining us. This was an awesome conversation, and I can't wait to share your knowledge with the world. Follow Ashley at Manager Method. That's all your socials, right? Manager method?

Ashley: That's all my socials. 

Josey: On all the socials, follow that. 

Kate: For- for future tips and tricks on how to be a better, you know, better manager, better employee, all the- all the good stuff. 

Ashley: Do as I say, not as I do.

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Outtro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.