Episode 25. Pregnancy, Parenting, and Entrepreneurship With Megan Senese

[Kate Bridal]

I forgot it was St. Patrick's Day the other day. I'm a mess. I'm a bad Irish person.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, I'm quite Irish from both sides. I didn't know that. If you can't tell from my complexion.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I guess that checks out.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, even my Uruguayan side, actually. My mom's ancestors were Irish and they were trying to get out of Ireland, I think during the famine. And they got on a ship and they were like, “We want to go to America.” And the captain was like, “Uh-huh, America.” And they were like, “Great.” 

South America was where it was going. That's how they wound up in Uruguay. They did not have money to leave. 

And so even some of my Uruguayan ancestors are Irish.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's wild.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

What a story!

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, she actually, she wrote a book kind of loosely based on that a little bit. One of her published works. Anyway, my mom's cool. Tessa Bridal, check her out.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Anyways, shout out mom. 

[Kate Bridal]

Shout out to my mom. She's a badass.

(Introduction music plays)

[Kate Bridal]

I'm Kate Bridal, a former non-profit attorney who never cared that much for the law.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I'm Rhia Batchelder, a former big law attorney who loves it, but has some suggestions.

[Kate Bridal]

And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout, offer solutions, and keep it as real as possible. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts. 

Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of The Legal Burnouts.

I am Kate Bridal, and I am here today with my gorgeous co-host, Rhia Batchelder. I don't want to always make it about your looks, but I feel like I spread it out.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, you do. I think this is actually the first one about my looks. I don't remember what the other compliments were, but I love this part of the episode.

(Rhia and Kate laugh)

[Kate Bridal]

Rhia's favorite part of the episode, the beginning when I say a compliment about her.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I blush every time like I don't know what's coming.

[Kate Bridal]

Now I feel pressured to think of different words every time.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know. I'm so sorry. You don't have to keep it up, but if it's going to happen- 

[Kate Bridal]

No, I want to.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I'm going to take it every single time. 

[Kate Bridal]

How are you?

[Rhia Batchelder]

(Simultaneously) How are you doing on this first day of spring?

[Kate Bridal]

Is it? I'm good. I was a little anxious today.

I tried tapping for the first time this morning, though.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh my gosh, did you? I'm so proud of you!

[Kate Bridal] 

Thank you!

[Rhia Batchelder]

So I was doing some research for this corporate presentation I'm doing on burnout prevention. If you guys are getting to know me now, reading really detailed research papers- 

[Kate Bridal]

It's her jam. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's my jam.

So I was doing this research, and I was reading this one study on EFT tapping and efficacy in treating anxiety. And there was this study that was comparing it to people who were doing CBT therapy with medication and people who were just doing EFT tapping every day. And the EFT tapping results were actually better, and the anxiety decrease stayed for longer and happened in less sessions.

It was honestly shocking. I was reading it out loud to my best friend. I was just voice noting her this really dense scientifi-

(Rhia and Kate laugh)

If you're my friend, I'm so sorry. Sometimes I can just be that kind of person. But it was incredible.

First of all, we love medication here. I've been on medication for my mental health. There's no shame. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I love therapy so much. 

But it's another tool that's really cool because I also teach it to people for stress relief, but it can really work for anxiety too. I was telling this to Kate earlier this week as well.

So I'm really proud of you. Did you like it?

[Kate Bridal]

I did. I think I just need to find one that really works for me, and I need to get better thinking of what the phrase is going to be. I tried to do it on my own just from an article walkthrough, and I was like, eh.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's hard. 

[Kate Bridal]

And then I did an actual guided one from YouTube that was like six minutes. And that one, I did feel like- like they had you check in at the beginning and the end.

And I was like, I feel like I went from a seven to a four or a three. So it was good.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's awesome.

[Kate Bridal]

So I think I just need to keep playing with it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. And finding the person that you like, the person's voice, the person's style, all that stuff has to feel good too. Going down three points in your anxiety in six minutes is pretty freaking awesome.

We're here for that. Listeners, let us know if you start tapping. We're on the tapping train.

[Kate Bridal]

We're tapping it out.

[Rhia Batchelder]

To answer your question earlier, which I did not, I'm feeling great today. I'm feeling like Aries season started today, and it's the first day of spring, and I was blasting Usher and wanting to dance on tables this morning when I woke up. That's the energy that I'm bringing today!

[Kate Bridal]

Love it. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

And I'm really excited to talk to our guest who is waiting patiently as we nerd out about EFT.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. So let us bring her in. 

Today, we're joined by Megan Senese. She is a former biglaw legal marketing and business development professional who is now the co-founder of Stage, which is a women-owned legal marketing and business development firm, which specializes in coaching and actionable strategies to boost empathy, revenue, and visibility for lawyers, with a particular focus on women, which we love. 

Stage stands out as one of the pioneering legal marketing teams to transition from big law and launch an independent venture as a united team. Stage provides free business development coaching to support working parents also before and after parental leave, which is amazing.

Megan, thank you so much for being here.

[Megan Senese]

Thank you! Thanks for having me. I don't know if I've had my bio read to me in that way. So that feels…

[Kate Bridal]

Did you like it?

[Megan Senese]

I did like it. I mean, I wrote it, (All laugh) but it also feels really good!

[Kate Bridal]

Do you need a voiceover artist for your business? Just let me know.

[Megan Senese]

I like it! We just celebrated our one-year anniversary in February. 

[Kate Bridal]

Congrats!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Congratulations!

[Megan Senese]

Thank you.

And so it feels nice to hear who we are in real life versus what we thought we were going to be. Particularly when we launched, the parental leave package- it's called Corduroy- was an idea. And now it's something that we actually do.

So hearing all of that, it just feels really good. So thank you! 

[Kate Bridal]

You're welcome.

[Megan Senese]

I’m like, we can end. This is good.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know. This is how I feel after Kate compliments me every time. (Megan laughs.) You're suddenly smiling.

[Megan Senese]

I feel it. 

[Kate Bridal]

I have discovered I really love... I've had people in my life who are like this, who are just cheerleaders.

If you need me to just say something nice to you, I'm happy to do it. If you're like, “I need to hear my bio again,” I'll just send you that clip.

[Megan Senese]

You can voice memo me. Not scientific papers, although I am interested in tapping, but…

[Rhia Batchelder]

Megan!

[Megan Senese]

Yeah, voice memo me my bio all the time. I would love to hear that. Thank you.

[Rhia Batchelder]

You don't want me to voice note you complex scientific research? 

[Megan Senese]

No, thank you. 

[Kate Bridal]

That's so strange.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Super weird. I think everybody is looking for that voice note.

[Kate Bridal]

Rhia and I exchange hours of voice notes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We do.

[Kate Bridal]

They're awkward. We are pausing in the middle and I'm like, “sSorry, I'm drinking coffee. Anyway, what was I saying?” They’re a mess.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh yeah, that's the voice note life. I literally start huffing and I'm like, “Sorry, Kate, I'm putting on my pants right now.” (Laughing) Like what is-?

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) The one where you're putting your tights on. That was amazing. Okay.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Back to it.

[Kate Bridal]

Megan!

[Megan Senese]

(Laughing) Hi!

[Kate Bridal]

We want to hear about you! We would love to hear a little bit of your story, your background, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty.

[Megan Senese]

Yeah. I'm like, where to start? The story that we like to tell, because it feels impactful, is that me and my two bosses all quit Big Law on the same day and launched our business two weeks later.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Wow.

[Megan Senese]

The behind the scenes story is that we were planning for some time to get this off the ground. 

But as far as we are aware, we are the only team who left Big Law together and formed a company together. We were an entire department. I was reporting to Jen and Jen was reporting to Kathleen, and now we're all even partners. 

We launched a year ago and now we are doing the thing. We're real life now. And so it feels crazy to let go of that corporate stability. It feels less crazy the longer we're out. The journey has been super interesting.

We've learned a lot about ourselves and what it means to be business owners is very different than what it means to be employees. That transition was a little harder than we had anticipated. It feels really good to be in this amazing place now and figuring out things about ourselves.

For me, I'm very intense and action oriented and an achiever. That just got exploded even more so now that I own my own business. It's interesting to be saying, “Oh, I'm burnt out from legal and I want to make sure I'm protecting myself now that I don't get burnt out from my own business.”

That's very hard, really hard to do. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's really hard. 

[Kate Bridal]

Especially when you're excited. 

[Megan Senese]

Last week in particular, I was just really cranky and really irritable and just super annoyed. Can we curse on this? 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Megan Senese]

Because definitely an F was going to come up.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Absolutely. We curse all the time.

[Megan Senese]

I was just really, really fucking cranky and didn't know why. I don't want to say that LinkedIn has been this best part of my business, but honestly, writing in the LinkedIn format has been very cathartic for me in a lot of ways. I wrote out everything that I was doing and posted it and I was like, oh, that's why I'm cranky.

So the example was: I'm driving strategy… and then driving kids to sports practice. I'm providing consultative services… and afternoon snacks. The dichotomy between those two things is ridiculous.

You're kind of high-level talking to chairs of the firm… and then I'm scooping out dog food that my kids put in the sink. Those are very important on both sides, but it often leaves little time for yourself. I'm not even really sure how we got here… But hi, that's me!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Hi! No, that's great. And I think really relatable.

One of the things that we know about burnout is when you add work to caregiving- especially mothering, the way women do parenting- You're at really, really high risk of burnout, especially in a space that is intense like law or like entrepreneurship. 

Then you add in passion for something and that's another risk factor for burnout, right? Because we can just push past our limits, get really intense, go really, really, really hard because we care so much. We love what we're doing. 

It's a lot and it's really hard for parents too, because like you said, there's so little time.

So your stress management has to be…

[Kate Bridal]

Bite-sized.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's got to be short, it's got to be effective and it's got to like fit into your day. And a lot of people just kind of throw their hands up and don't do it. I don't have kids, so I can't really relate, but I can empathize and I hear it all the time.

[Megan Senese]

It's super tricky. And of course, the jump from corporate into entrepreneurial life was something that my family made as a group. My husband and I made the plan together.

And so I don't want to lose sight of when I say… Mothering, yes, there definitely are more things that are expected of me, particularly the school. I'm like, can you call the father? He's also involved.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right.

[Megan Senese]

I always put my husband's email address first and his cell phone number first and they never call him.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Really? Wow.

[Megan Senese]

It's so annoying. 

[Kate Bridal]

That's so disrespectful.

[Megan Senese]

And so I keep adding it to the list and I'm like, he's also available. 

When they were daycare age, he did all the pickup and drop-off because I had to commute into the city. They were like, is mom even around? Like, where is this person? 

Because I was supporting all of the lawyers in my nonstop… They're nonstop, and so therefore all of the support staff is also nonstop. And so the burnout is across the entire legal system. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Megan Senese]

It's not like a “what about,” it's “also,” it all filters down.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, and the culture is the same.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. We always- Josey, of course, is an ex-paralegal. And that's one of the things that now that she's leaving the show, we want to keep bringing up as well is that it is not just attorneys.

It is the entire legal industry. It is support staff, marketing, like you said, even. Like everybody is in that environment and is being treated very intensely. And the burnout is real across the board, for sure.

But that's crazy that the school is just… Well, and it's so exhausting to get pulled in different directions. And maybe this is both of our undiagnosed ADHD: Getting interrupted in the middle of tasks or having to be pulled in many different directions is really tiring for me really, really fast.

So the more different things I have to focus on in one day, the more exhausted I am. And I also don't have kids, so I can only imagine how much more that happens to you just out of necessity, because you are also caring for tiny humans who need a lot of things. 

[Megan Senese]

They need all the things.

[Kate Bridal]

All the stuff.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That's what I think of all the time. I'm like, they need everything, like every little thing that a human needs to survive emotionally, physically, all the things like… It’s just almost impossible to process what that's like.

[Kate Bridal]

Just meeting the bare minimum of the necessities of parenting is exhausting enough. But then when you're- and before you got on Rhia, we were talking a little bit about how Megan is also trying to raise her children as responsible people and not too overly conditioned by this society of ours, the patriarchy, et cetera. So when you're also trying to do that work- 

[Megan Senese]

It starts early. My son, he's like, no, pink is for girls. And that is not something we say in our house. I actually have a book that's called Pink is for Boys. It's the book.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Excuse me, have you not read Pink is for Boys?

[Kate Bridal]

Excuse me, I would like to direct you... 

[Megan Senese]

Excuse me, sir. It infiltrates every part of what you do. And I think what's so interesting- talking about being a parent- but what's so interesting is that I never, ever wanted to be an entrepreneur.

I always wanted to be a CMO, CMO of Biglaw. And the pandemic is really what put a lot of things into perspective for me and I think a lot of people. And that's coming from a place where I was healthy. My family was healthy. We were safe. I was inside, I was employed.

There's tremendous amount of privilege for me to even be able to say, “Aw, the pandemic was really hard for me.” 

But I had two kids who were tiny. I worked in literally two-minute intervals. It was the hardest I've ever worked in my entire career to try and keep my job. And my husband and I were two working parents with no support because we don't have anyone near us. 

But I never worked as hard as I did during that time, and I'm a hard fucking worker. I was the person who was always like, this person quit. So let's just give that person, let's just give Megan their job. Which actually happened to me, and it's part of what put me on this path of finding other things. 

And so COVID is really what put me on this. I want something else, I want something more. And so you start interviewing for positions where you start looking at lifestyle law firms, which I'm sure Rhia, you've heard those, where are those lifestyle firms?

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) I think Rhia's relating hard to basically everything you're saying. It's very similar to her story!

[Rhia Batchelder]

I’m like, this is my story!

[Kate Bridal]

Down to not ever thinking she wanted to be an entrepreneur.

[Megan Senese]

Never. No. I was like, first of all, I work in Biglaw, so I'm highly compensated to support those big partners who are millionaires, which is cool.

And so there's a piece of you that's like, well, I have to work these hours because I'm highly compensated. I need to perform at a certain level and I am the best. 

And what is the incentive now for me to continue to be the best? It’s like, I'm going to get more money. Cool. I’m going to get a better title. Cool. And maybe I'll move up in law firm ranking, which you can do as a marketer. Maybe you were at Amlaw 60 and then you went to 40 and you know. 

And so there's all of these metrics that you can use to measure your worth, but they're the wrong ones for me.

[Kate Bridal]

Right. “Worth” in big scare quotes. 

[Megan Senese]

I think in a lot of ways, if the pandemic didn't happen, I would have just kept on plowing through.

I started interviewing for lifestyle firms or firms where I kept asking, like, “Can I work from home when needed?” Wasn't even like all the time. They were like, “No.” 

And I kept saying, like, I have young kids, I'm not asking for different accommodations. I'm just asking for flexibility. 

My daughter, when she was in daycare, had an ear infection once a month, every month, her whole first year of life. And she was sick with something. We got everything her first year hand, foot, mouth. I mean, we had everything, every disease and virus that you can get in daycare, we got it.

(Kate and Rhia laugh)

And so that was always coming into like my career path. I started interviewing for these positions and saying, like, I have young kids and they're like, “Well, maybe you like, wait until you don't need you as much.” 

I'm like, well, when is that? Because they're much older now, but I have to drive them places. They're in sports. They have activities. From what I keep hearing from the people who have older kids is that they need you more to like counsel them and guide them.

And so that really shifted a lot of things about what I wanted for my life. You know, I was missing dinner, not because anyone told me to, but because I thought if I worked hard, I would be rewarded. And that was a decision that I made, right?

No one said, “Skip dinner.” Nobody told me to, to do all those things. And I felt really ashamed and really mad at myself for choosing that path.

And it was this kind of big wake up call to see like what was next for me. And that was started this long journey to what is now Stage.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, the point about putting it on yourself: I've said that a lot about my habits. I think we've all done that.

And it's like, yeah, it's not told to you. Your boss isn't going in there and saying you should skip dinner, but the culture and every signal you're getting around you, and every time you're rewarded for doing that stuff does reinforce the idea that it's expected to some degree, especially in biglaw culture.

I mean, from what I know of it from Rhia and other folks that I know have worked in it. So it, it is on you to a degree. It is your, your choice. No one strictly told you to do that, but also everything around you is signaling that that is acceptable and expected behavior.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. 

People I talk to about burnout in, in every industry kind of struggle with this, right? They're like, why did I do that? Why did I push myself this far to the point where I'm experiencing mental and physical symptoms from prolonged stress? Why did I miss out time with my family? 

It's like, well, you were conditioned to do that. You were rewarded for it. It is implicitly required in big law. I mean, they give you a stipend to order dinner to your desk because they want you to stay there. 

[Megan Senese]

That's a perk!

Yeah, a perk. Right. And it's like, you can take a black car home as long as you stay until 8 PM. And so you just would work through dinner every single night and shovel food in your face while you're billing. 

So it's like, yeah, you made those choices. And like, I hear you on taking accountability for that. But I think the real like accountability part comes with being like, I want to change this. 

Like we were trained to be those types of workers, right? The money keeps coming. The promotions keep coming. The prestige keeps coming. The compliments keep coming.

It's like reward, reward, reward, reward, reward. And we as humans, our brains are conditioned to continue behaviors that we get rewarded for. 

So having that like wake up moment where you're like, whoa, what's important? What are my values? What do I want my life to look like? That I think is really impressive. So I hope you are proud of yourself for that. ‘Cause that’s not easy to do.

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely. 

[Megan Senese]

Well, thank you. I think that I felt so destined for more. And I just wasn't getting what I wanted. And I also feel like saying that particularly from a mom and a woman like that I wanted more. People didn't understand really what that was. They’re like, what like more money?

You want to like write articles and be on podcasts? I was like, yeah, actually, I do. I do want that. I want more. Why aren't I allowed to have that? 

The idea was brought to me. Jen created the idea and was like, what if we can do the work that we love to do? I love helping lawyers, and I love helping them, particularly on a one-to-one basis.

So when she brought that idea up, it was just kind of like mind blowing. I was like, what do you mean? Do the work, only the work we like to do? Like, what is that?

[Kate Bridal]

I'm sorry, this does not compute. 

[Megan Senese]

I literally was like, I don't understand.

[Kate Bridal] 

I can enjoy working. Come again?

[Megan Senese]

Yeah. And so it felt really crazy. It was kind of pitched on a Friday.

And I said, yes, immediately. But they're like, maybe you want to think about it? (Kate laughs) And so it was like...

[Kate Bridal]

Megan, I have a deep feeling that you and I are very similar in a lot of ways. 

[Megan Senese]

Yeah. And so they were like, do you want to do this? I was like, yes. And they were like, like, why don't you like think about it and talk about it with your, you know, but with your husband? I was like, no, no, I'm pretty sure this is good.

(Rhia laughs)

You know, I had a panic attack the entire weekend, literally panicked, couldn't breathe, couldn't sleep.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

[Megan Senese]

I was like, this is fucking crazy. I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna quit.

I'm gonna be a quitter. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oooo, that whole thing. Yeah.

[Megan Senese]

When I was still in house, like people have left and done other things. And we'd be like, they can't hack it. They can't hack it like us.

Us tough New Yorkers, right? 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh, yeah. 

[Megan Senese]

And so there was parts of me that were like that.

And people kept saying to me as well, like, I think in a very supportive way, “Yu can always go back.” At that point, I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess you're right. There's no way now.

I am like a dragon who has been unleashed.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I feel the same way. You cannot put me back in a corporate space. I won't have a boss again. It's never going to ever, ever, ever happen to me.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. We talked to a lot of people who feel like that. 

[Megan Senese]

I mean, never say never.

[Kate Bridal]

Right. Of course. You also said you would never be an entrepreneur.

[Rhia Batchelder]

True.

[Megan Senese]

That's exactly what I was going to say. Because I'm unleashed in a way that I don't think I even knew was possible. And the things that I talk about and post publicly, I'm not sure firms would be comfortable with that.

But what I do get satisfaction from is that a lot of people are reaching out and telling me that me sharing my story resonates with them, or the same thing happened to them. And the more that that happens, the more brave I feel to share other stories. And that's been a really big piece of being a business owner, right?

There's a lot of shit that comes with being a business owner.

[Rhia Batchelder]

A lot of shit. For me too, that authenticity piece of just being able to be yourself, more of a whole human was such a relief, especially after being in biglaw, which is very, very serious. And listen, I can be in a meeting and be serious.

Also, the majority of my personality is smiley and goofy and having dance parties in my condo and looking at flowers and almost crying because I think the world is so beautiful. 

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) I love you.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That is who I am at my core. I didn't feel like I could express my full self.

In a lot of corporate environments, we feel like we have to dull ourselves down to the tiny slice of ourselves. And then like you said, there's this pressure of what can I say? What can I post? What are people going to think? 

And I love that you started sharing and more people started reaching out and it shows you, okay, this conversation is needed. Other people are feeling this way and we're all just swallowing it and continuing to put one foot in front of the other and thinking, “Well, everyone else is probably okay. So I should be okay. I should just get over it.” 

Like you said, you have this pressure to hack it and not be a quitter and all these things.

And then you come out the other side of it and you're like, “Oh no, this is the braver thing. This is the bigger thing.”

[Kate Bridal]

And you discover how universal it is. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

Like you said, people start reaching out and being like, and whether it's privately or publicly. But when we started the podcast, we were kind of like, “Well, we'll see if anyone's willing to come on and talk about it.” Right?

And it was like, literally no one turned us down. And then we started getting people soliciting us to come on. And I was like, wow, okay. People just need somebody to start the conversation and they will have it. 

[Megan Senese]

Totally. And I think, I don't want to say that I was this shrinking violet when I was inside Big Law. That's definitely not who I was, but there was definitely things that I would talk to an extent and then being like, okay, now I need to fall back in line. I didn't put up pictures of my kids.

And I remember very, very vividly sneaking out at 5.30, like early. I had to go get my kids! 

I would pretend I was going to the bathroom. I would take the internal staircase and I would go to a different floor so that I didn't have anybody see me because the elevators would take forever, like in the elevator bank. And there was glass doors. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, why are they all glass doors?

[Megan Senese]

For transparency. 

[Kate Bridal]

So they can watch you leave and take the elevator home early. That's why.

[Megan Senese]

And they'd be like, oh, it must be nice to leave at 5.30. Like must be nice to leave early.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right, but you're going to be a parent. You're not like going to the spa.

[Megan Senese]

Yeah. But also I'm like, pretty sure my day was over at five, right? Like I'm not leaving early.

Comments like that can start to add up. And there's a topic that we wanted to talk about. And so I don't want to, I don't want to make, I want to make sure that we address it.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah.

[Megan Senese]

I want to make sure we address it, which is, you know, I had posted about how I hid my pregnancy. One of my pregnancies when I was still in house, nobody told me to hide my pregnancy. It is something that three of us who worked in the department did.

They hid it, and then I hid it, and then the next person after me also hid it. It was this like trick to show that you were committed and it wasn't a very like welcoming place to be pregnant. And there were comments that were made that made you feel like you had to hide it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Like what? 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I'm curious, like what…?

[Megan Senese]

The comments would be something like, “Oh, you're not drinking? You better not be pregnant.”

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh shit. Isn't that illegal?

[Megan Senese]

I'm not a lawyer, so…

[Rhia Batchelder]

Lawyers are saying that, that's crazy.

[Megan Senese]

And these would be, you know, people in positions of power and often men who would be like, oh, so funny. It's jokes, right? These are all, these are all, these are all jokes.

[Kate Bridal]

Right, right. I'm kidding.

[Megan Senese]

And don't be so sensitive.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, get a sense of humor.

[Megan Senese]

Get a sense of humor. I mean, there were lots of, lots of kinds of comments like that. I hid it for six months, which is kind of crazy.

Imagine a TV show where you're like, this person's probably pregnant, but you can't really tell.

[Kate Bridal]

Why is she carrying boxes in every scene? Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

The lamp.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, the lamp. A turkey.

[Megan Senese]

Yeah. I would do crazy things. And we would have like outfit checks.

I'd have like a person who knew, and I'd be like, “Can you tell today?” And they're like, “Well, maybe you shouldn't like do, you should take all your meetings sitting down.”

[Kate Bridal]

Wow.

[Megan Senese]

And when the news finally came out, it was fine. Like people were like, okay, whatever. I don't care.

But it was corresponding with my raise. It was corresponding with a promotion. The environment was in a place that if I got a lesser raise or didn't get the promotion, I would have thought it was tied to that.

And that moment I felt like the best thing for me and my career and my salary trajectory was to hide it. I think the longer and the further away I get from certain situations, the more I have hindsight into being like, oh, and then that comment was not cool. And like that comment wasn't, you know, they all start to kind of add up.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah. Wow. That's, I mean, the fact that you all made that choice makes a lot of sense to me.

Because just to bring up some data, we know that women upon the first kid, it affects their financial trajectory for the rest of their career. They're seen as less committed, less reliable, less valuable, et cetera. 

And then we also know that men upon having their first child actually enjoy a salary bump for the rest of their life. And they are seen as greater leaders, more worthy of promotion, more responsible. It's so crazy how this is still happening, but it's like, yeah, you made the individual decision, but there's a reason. 

Even if people say to you, “Oh yeah, that's cool,” research shows there is an internal bias happening. It's just infuriating to me, really. 

Was it emotional for you to feel like you had to hide such a big part of your life, right? And like what you're going through?

[Megan Senese]

I don't know if I felt sad that I had to hide it. I also feel like in a lot of ways, like for me, once I became a parent, I was like, you get really good at getting shit done. And this was just like another task that needed to get done.

I'm going to hide it. I'm going to get the most for me and my family. And this is what needs to be done. And like, that's kind of it. 

In a lot of ways, I feel like if that didn't happen to me… Let me rephrase, if that wasn't the choice that I decided to make, I don't think we'd be here talking about it. And I also don't think that...

So we launched a year ago, like I've mentioned multiple times, because we're very excited about it. We had no clients, right? Zero clients. We quit our jobs and have zero clients. And then I was like, “I know, we'll give free shit away to people!” (Kate and Rhia laugh) That's perfect, right?

But there is a stat that says something like 80% of women lawyers who are mothers leave because they don't feel supported in business development. If that experience didn't happen to me, right, I don't know if I'd be not giving away free coaching.

So it's essentially a month. It's four sessions of business development, help and coaching and guidance. It winds up being mostly women, but I have men lawyers as well who are taking us up on the offer.

[Kate Bridal]

That’s great.

[Megan Senese]

I feel like that adds to my purpose in life, which is to support people, support parents. It's hard enough to be in big law. It's harder to be a parent in biglaw.

And it's hard to build a book. You either just became partner or you're on partner track and now you have a baby at home. And then they're like, “Good luck with your business development.”

And yes, there are definitely people who are in-house that are supposed to support you. And that was what I was doing, but you don't get the same kind of one-to-one guidance and support.

[Kate Bridal]

And especially coming back from leave is like...

[Megan Senese]

It is not a vacation! 

[Kate Bridal]

Right? You're exhausted. And you've also just been out. You haven't been at work for however many months they allow you to have or weeks.

You have to come back, reorient yourself. And then as a woman coming back, deal with all of those stereotypes and stigmas. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Prove yourself.

[Kate Bridal]

And yeah, prove yourself all over again, even though you've already proven yourself. It's like you're a new person because you had a kid. And so now suddenly... woooah.

And a lot of women do come back and put down more boundaries, because-

[Rhia Batchelder]

You have to!

[Kate Bridal]

You have to!

[Rhia Batchelder] 

There's someone in your house that you have to feed and put to bed!

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, you have created a human that now depends on you for everything. So yeah, you are going to have different priorities. But what's wrong with that?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, that should be okay!

[Kate Bridal]

Right!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Especially because we're in a culture that pressures women to have children. You are judged as selfish, whatever, whatever, whatever, if you don't have kids. But then you do have kids. And it’s like, well, she's busy. She's distracted. 

And like you said, Megan, every mom I know becomes more organized, more efficient, more productive, more forward thinking, more detail oriented. All these incredible qualities that are 100% skills that translate into the workforce. 

So it's like, yeah, she has this other thing going on. And also she's built all these skills that are going to enable her to excel at work as well.

And the judgment is just... It's asinine.

[Megan Senese]

Yeah, it's pretty infuriating. Luckily for me, I didn't have any postpartum depression or mental health struggles. I just like, yeah, I had a kid at home and I'm the same person.

I am the same person and I'm not the same person. But for the most part, I felt like I am the same person with less time, with constraint time that had to be super disciplined. This is where like, maybe I'm not ADHD because discipline and focus are apparently like my Clifton Gallup strengths…

[Kate Bridal]

(Close to the mic) Hyper focus is part of it.

[Megan Senese]

Oh, God. 

(All laugh)

[Kate Bridal]

I used to say I didn't think I had it. I was like, well, I can focus hard and for a long, long time. And then someone was like, “Yeah, that's a symptom.”

[Megan Senese]

Oh well I’ll explore- I might have to go and get that checked out. But being even more focused with like, I have 30 minutes and I'm going to be super disciplined about this. 

There's lots of companies now that are coming out to like help people with on ramping and off ramping. And I think a lot of law firms are starting to adopt those companies and bring those companies into the fold. Also, firms are trying to hire like directors of wellness that I'm hopeful will address some of these things.

[Kate Bridal]

Who are gonna get in there and be like, “You need to let your people go home.” And then the firms will be like, “Well, we're eliminating this position because of budget.” 

[Rhia Batchelder]

I know.

[Kate Bridal]

(Laughing) We'll see how long those positions last.

[Rhia Batchelder]

No, 100%. Listen, I've been pitching law firms about burnout prevention workshops, because I'm like, we need to get in there and talk about this, but also get some people some real strategies that are effective for busy people that they can bring into their days. So they're protecting themselves.

And law firms are like… Hmmmmm…

[Kate Bridal] 

“Do we?”

[Rhia Batchelder]

“We'll let you know. We'll let you know. We'll circle back.”

[Kate Bridal]

Cute idea. 

[Megan Senese]

There has to be a firm culture that's accepting of that kind of programming. And it also has to be tied to revenue, right?

If you want to have diverse talent, and you want to have gender diversity in your workforce, and you want to make sure that you have women partners, then… That's part of why, again, we're offering dedicated business development support, because I worked in very big firms, maybe there's 800 lawyers and 30 marketing people, you're not getting all 800 people. 

And not all 800 lawyers need to go and get revenue in the door, but a decent amount of them do. Historically, the ones that are making the most money are not always the women.

And so that's another reason for us being here is to try and address some of that. Know that if you're giving support to help with burnout, to help with productivity, to help with wellness, to help your parents come back on, when everybody, all they want to do is literally make money to support themselves and their family and have their own book and have their own clients, then these aren’t nice to have, these are must-haves, and that will literally feed the bottom line. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah, and for long-term.

[Megan Senese]

Long-term. That's where people need to be focusing on. It's not woo-woo, right?

Like, us New Yorkers are like, that's woo-woo, feeling touchy. But no, this is serious.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I’ll send you a research paper.

[Megan Senese]

If you want to make more money, then invest. If you want to have your people stay with you and not have to rehire, then these are some of the programs that can do that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

If you start with stress management and burnout prevention techniques, if you know what they are, you understand what's effective, what isn't, productivity can increase pretty quickly. It just is so frustrating to me because there is so much research on this. There really is.

It's data. I think there is a stat that says efforts to increase employee engagement, which burnout prevention, that increases engagement, increases productivity and revenue by like 17% or something like that. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh my god.

[Rhia Batchelder]

It's crazy.

When we are letting people get to the point of burnout, we are taking them out of the workforce for months to years. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes.

[Rhia Batchelder]

A lot of those people are women. A lot of those people are Black women. Like you were mentioning, Megan, we are bleeding out diversity in the law firm setting because we are not paying attention to this. 

Then those people are completely removed from the workforce while they heal. They cannot work at full capacity. And so, we as a culture, as a society, as an economy, are losing out on traditionally high achievers. These are the people who are burning out. 

It really is infuriating because I agree, people seem to roll their eyes and be like, “Oh, this is like a soft issue.”

It's really, really not. It's incredibly important to every company's bottom line to take this seriously. Research shows that across the workforce, a fourth to half of people are currently experiencing burnout symptoms. In the legal industry, that is like double. It is honestly shocking. 

Megan, your story where you were talking about hiding your pregnancy and doing the outfit checks, that's a stressor! That is a daily stressor that was added to your life that you had to think about and carry that mental load, on top of, I'm literally growing a human being from scratch inside of my body and then performing at this high level at work, keeping my relationship alive, having friends. That is just…

[Kate Bridal]

So much.

[Rhia Batchelder]

… so frustrating to me.

[Megan Senese]

On top of morning sickness. You were like, oh, how did you feel? I'm like, I don't remember feeling anything now that I'm talking.

But my husband did buy me a blood pressure monitor because he was concerned that- My blood pressure was fine. There was nothing, we were just like, I don't know, you must be stressed out. But I think it was just so suppressed.

[Kate Bridal]

You were just doing it. 

[Megan Senese] 

I was just doing it and I'm just going to talk about it years and years later. Survival mode in a lot of ways.

But I did get a really big raise, so there's that. 

[Kate Bridal]

Well, hey. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Hell yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

Good for you. 

I would love to hear a little more about the services that you all do provide and maybe how can firms and other companies support folks going on parental leave in a better way?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Love that question. 

[Megan Senese]

Yes. So our parental leave package is called Corduroy because sometimes being a parent is smooth and other times it's really fucking bumpy. And so Corduroy is like the fabric, but also like the cute little bear. 

But essentially you get four sessions with one of the stage principals and we talk about whatever that person might need. It depends on where they are in their career.

Most of the people are coming to us, either they just became partner or they're on partner track. So they need to either figure out a way to develop their books of business. 

And so we sit with them and talk to them about like, who are your contacts? What industry segment are you going after? When's the last time you've talked to your clients? What else can you do for visibility? Could you get on a podcast? We talk through the very general kind of marketing and business development. 

Lots of consultants will come on and kind of blah, blah at you. I do the work for you. 

And that's basically like our whole thing is that we are taking some of the stress off of you. So if you don't know what to say to reach out to a contact or a client, or you have an upcoming podcast or you have a CLE presentation abstract you'd like to pitch, we will write all of it for you.

As a lawyer, you're going to get it and you're going to edit it and that's what you do. But our job is to get a draft. We are like chat GPT, right?

[Rhia Batchelder]

But better.

[Megan Senese]

But better and not hallucinating and making things up. 

[Kate Bridal]

Give you real cases to cite for your CLE. 

[Megan Senese}

Exactly.

It's our in-house experience, but it's also now as real business developers, these are things that worked when we were in-house and then I applied those same exact strategies to build my own book. So now these are things that are applying that I know are working firsthand, not only for all of the lawyers that I've supported over my entire 16 years of in-house experience, but now in my one year of building my own book and our own books together. 

And we also have fractional, which is when marketing and business development teams might need some extra help and support. Maybe they have a maternity leave or paternity leave that they need to cover. And you don't want to have to have a temp come in because you have to explain everything. We're an experienced team.

We have the very classic sentence that law firms love to use, which is we have 55 years of combined legal marketing experience between the three of us. 

[Kate Bridal]

Ah yes.

[Megan Senese]

So we're a very senior team. You don't have to explain much to us.

Just give us the task and we can be on our way. And that's exactly what people want. You want to be like, “Here it is. Please do it for me.” 

We also have a wellness component, which is basically an assessment that tells you where you are in your current state. And so then you can either talk about it with us if you'd like as a friend, because we're not psychologists or therapists, but it is an indication of where you currently are in your wellness journey.

So it's just one way to kind of address where people are.

[Rhia Batchelder] 

Incredible.

[Kate Bridal]

That’s awesome. 

And then I asked you a compound question, which is like lawyering 101 is you're not supposed to do that. But I would love to hear, like, how do you think that firms and corporations can support folks going out and coming back in a better way?

[Megan Senese]

Yeah, there are quite a few lawyers who are running women's initiatives- it should really just be lawyers initiatives, but that's a conversation for a different day- where they are trying to collate and collect lists of services for parents who are coming back. Like, can you get a food subscription? Can you have a cleaning service come and have the firm-

[Rhia Batchelder]

Blue Apron. 

[Kate Bridal]

Rhia's trying to get sponsored by Blue Apron very, very hard. (Rhia laughs.) She's always going after it.

[Megan Senese]

Or HelloFresh or, you know, to have the firm subsidize some of those things. It's just like some of those extra to outsource. Those are the things that people are usually tasked with, having to clean, having to cook, getting dry cleaning picked up and delivered to your house.

Subsidized nanny and daycare credits would also be amazing because it's just crazy. 

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, yeah. Child care.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Child care is crazy expensive.

[Megan Senese]

So I've seen some firms doing things like that, where they're trying to figure out what do they need. There's also, I just met someone who was a sleep coach, which I didn't know existed. Sounded like it was something for super rich people.

[Kate Bridal]

Sleep coach for when you sleep in your egg that's keeping you young.

(Rhia laughs.)

[Megan Senese]

She's like, no, this is accessible. I'm a baby sleep coach.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, for babies!

[Megan Senese]

Oh, yeah. For babies. 

[Kate Bridal]

I was like, just for me, I could use that.

[Megan Senese]

There's that too, right? Because there's plenty of people who are not sleeping. So, you know, things like that.

Also, like, talk to your people, right? Like, talk to your lawyers. I'm not a lawyer. I'm in marketing, right? So ask them, what would be helpful? And then once you ask them… do it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Get the answer…

[Megan Senese]

And then do it! 

[Rhia Batchelder]

This is really not that complicated. I completely agree. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. Seems basic.

[Rhia Batchelder]

That was great advice. I think it's so important that companies, all companies, not just law firms, think about these things. Because if you feel like, oh, parents are more distracted, they're being pulled in all these different directions.

Okay. How can we take some of that stress off your plate? So work becomes something that you can focus on more if that's what you want.

And like you said, all of those things, I think are incredible solutions. The way you're talking about this is the way I talk about burnout too, right? Like you're offloading stressors. You're minimizing stressors. You're looking at all the responsibilities that you have. What can I take off my plate so I'm protecting myself from burnout and also just allowing myself to be able to focus on a couple things because I cannot be doing 18 jobs in one single day. It's not possible. 

And I think like too, if you're listening, if you're a parent or if you're not a parent and you're just really, really busy for whatever reason, getting comfortable- if it's accessible to you, a lot of these things we mentioned cost money- Being okay with outsourcing and asking help, like getting a cleaning service, hiring a wash and fold, getting your dry cleaning delivered instead of having to add that task of going to the store. 

Like you said, I think these are all really smart options. Even like using chat GPT too, that's a cheap one, to like create a birthday party schedule or stuff like that, that you're thinking about. And you're like, I just need some help. I need some ideas. 

[Megan Senese]

You can also ask your partner to do some stuff, right? 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Hell yeah.

[Megan Senese]

Like the only way that my life works is that my, my husband and I are a team. And there are some weeks that I am doing way more. And there are some weeks that he's doing way more.

It's never ever like 50, 50 even. Cause then you're looking for like what person is doing what? But there are a lot of people in my network or a lot of women in my network that were like, “Well, I can't ask or my husband can't…”

And why not?

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. They have to like train them if they want them to do the thing too, which is so… The weaponized incompetence. 

I deal with this a lot with my clients too, where we're going through their stressors. And one of them becomes, “My partner isn't helping out. And I feel like I'm project managing him in addition to my kids and my work and my life and my wellbeing.” 

It's adding. Like the idea is that some partners, male partners, literally make your life harder than if you were a single parent, because they're adding to the mental load, like over and over again. 

[Megan Senese]

Like opening the fridge and being like, “Where's the ketchup?” No, just think about it before you ask me. Yeah.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Figure it out, you know? 

[Kate Bridal]

When I tell you something that I would like you to do, do not say, “Remind me.” 

[Megan Senese]

Right.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. Or “just give me a list and I'll do it.” It's like, create your own list. Do the work.

Yeah. McKinsey and company does this like a women in the workforce report every year. And there's always the study on the split between care, like caregiving tasks at home.

I like haven't read it in a minute, but I believe that it says that women tend to perform seven hours of additional caregiving tasks, including like household chores per week, even in dual income careers where the hours and power and money is the same, which is just another reason that women are burning out at higher rates. 

It makes me so happy when I talk to a woman who's like, I have a partner that is meeting me halfway and really enabling me to do this in a way that feels good. I'm just happy for you. And also all ladies, this is possible. 

[Kate Bridal]

Yes. Well, this has been fantastic. Megan, really appreciate you coming on and being so honest about your experience because it is something that is vulnerable to talk about. And I'm glad you're unleashed.

I'm glad we're all dragons off our leash. I'm actually, we are rewatching Game of Thrones right now. So that metaphor really hit me.

[Megan Senese]

Yes.

[Kate Bridal]

Like perfectly, the dragons just showed up. Yes. 

But I just get so energized by these conversations and by hearing other people, especially other women who get to just like finally talk about the shit that they have been dealing with and just actually get to expose it and talk about how negatively it affects them and how we can do things differently.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Also, congratulations. Huge congratulations for your business becoming one year old. I love talking to women, especially who are doing work their way and get to make the impact that they want to make.

And also it's just another example. I have some clients who are like, I could never do X, Y, Z. And I think that staying open and flexible to figuring out what's going to work for you and that changing depending on your stage of life and where your values are and how much unlearning you've done of like all the cultural stuff that we've been conditioned to accept and just kind of trudge along with.

I think that's really, really inspiring. So thank you for sharing that.

[Megan Senese]

And I love when women help other women. And thank you, Kate, for listening and responding to my cold email!

[Rhia Batchelder]

Oh yeah. Wait, we want to hear that story really quick. What was that? Because you mentioned that you reached out to Kate and it was kind of like a moment.

[Megan Senese]

Yeah. So it might've even been a year ago.

[Kate Bridal]

Do you think it was that long? Did you reach out to me because of the podcast? 

[Megan Senese}]

Yeah.

[Kate Bridal]

Okay. We didn't launch the podcast until June.

[Megan Senese]

Okay. So it was like June because it was pretty fresh where I was like, “This is new!” And so I was on this like almost like a rampage essentially to get as many opportunities for myself and my business as I possibly could because I was falling in the line of like, well, people must be invited….

I mean, I'm sure that's true, but like people must be invited to speak. People must be invited on podcasts. People must be invited to write on articles. And that's probably true for some people. It's not true for me. 

And so I took this approach of being like, well, I can't sit around and wait for people to ask me to- for these opportunities that I want. People don't even know I exist because I'm not, I'm in a new capacity now. 

And so I just went on like, seriously, a rampage of being like, I'm going to find things that align with me. I'm going to ask them if they want me to be a guest or if they want me to write, or if they want to connect with me or they want to meet with me. And I'm just going to just put it all out there. 

And if they say no, I'm in the same place as I was before, which is, I don't have any podcast opportunities. I have no writing opportunities.

(Rhia laughs.) 

And so when I saw the title, I was like, huh, this is cool.

And I reached out and I think you were having kind of a low day at that moment. And so there was some like immediate kind of connection and back and forth of talking about like what it meant and how I just left biglaw. And I just launched a business probably like I'm three months old.

And so that's kind of how it came to be, which is just like taking the risk again and putting yourself out there.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yeah, I love that.

[Kate Bridal]

Well, and it was so lovely for me to have you reach out because it was like, like you said, I was… One of my days, you know, where I was like questioning everything that I was doing and I had, you know, just quit a job and doing all sorts of crazy stuff, doing a podcast full time that I wasn't getting paid for. So it's like having you say that you were into it and that you were interested in being on, it was… 

You know, you're going to change that person's day maybe to like just take the chance and reach out. And it's always nice for the other person to hear from people who are appreciating what they're doing. And then also it is great to connect with people who are aligned with you, especially with, you know, mission driven stuff like this, like the podcast… I want to help people. And so to get as many people on who I think can do that as possible is one of the big goals.

So you were obviously in a position to do that as well. And so I'm so happy that you reached out and didn't just like send a connection request that you actually sent me a message so that we- And we like, yeah, immediately just started, I think… as I've noticed women especially do, like it doesn't take long for women to just start unloading a lot of heavy shit on each other, I think.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We like to connect. 

[Kate Bridal]

It's kind of funny.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I love that story because I'm in a phase… So I've been mainly focused the last almost three years now on one-on-one coaching. That is like fully fleshed out, have my clients, it's moving, right? But then the corporate programming stuff I was resistant to do for a little while because I think I needed a real break from that world.

And now it is going into the spaces to those big players and being like, “Hey, here's what I'm doing. Do you want me? Do you, can we talk about this? Like, what do you think?”

And it can feel really scary. I feel like I'm a pretty confident outgoing person and I still pitching is like my, the task that I avoid the most and LinkedIn connecting is the task that I avoid the most.

And I just have been working on this the last couple of months, kind of amping myself up. Like you said, just like take the risk, put yourself out there. The worst they can say is no.

And so that was, that was a good pep talk for me.

[Megan Senese]

You can do it. You can do it. 

[Kate Bridal]

Absolutely.

And to everyone out there, you can do it too. Like a lot of what we talked about does take, like we mentioned, you know, money, privilege, stuff like that. But there are still things that you can do if you, if you aren't in those positions, you know, like just connecting with people that you've- on LinkedIn that you think might be helpful or might have opportunities for you down the road, start establishing those relationships in a, you know… 

I hate networking. Like…

[Rhia Batchelder]

Kate, how is that true? I have never met anyone who networks like you do. Kate’s like, “I hate networking. I just met some four people this week and we had one hour long conversation.” 

(Kate Laughs)

It's just like, you are the most connecty networking person I've ever…

[Kate Bridal]

Because now I'm networking the way I like it. 

[Rhia Batchelder]

Ohhhh.

[Kate Bridal]

I used to say I hated networking because I hated networking events where you have to go and make small talk with people that you're meeting face to face for like LinkedIn has changed the way that I network because I can do it on my terms when I feel like it. 

It's not face to face. So I'm not being drained by interacting with people in that way. And you can think through what you're going to say, and you can think through how you're going to respond to something. You can wait if you need to.

And so LinkedIn has its problems. I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't. Suppresses lots of folks who shouldn't be suppressed. All sorts of fun things like that. 

But I have met so many people like Megan. Rhia, and I met through TikTok. But through social media, I have met so many people and been able to do that networking in a way that works for me.

So I really just recommend it because, you know, you don't have to pay for premium. LinkedIn, as far as I know, basic is still free. So it's a good way to get on even if you just want to lurk and kind of look at who is doing stuff that you might be interested in starting to engage with down the line.

So that's my little tidbit.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes. Dude, I tell this to my clients all the time, like no pressure perusing, go look at people whose jobs you might be interested in, because there are a lot of people doing cool things.

And we trap ourselves and kind of cage ourselves in. I’m like send them a request. You can like be like, “Hey, if I send you $5 for Starbucks coffee, will you like get on a Zoom with me or whatever?”

A lot of people will say, yeah. Some people will be like, no, but a lot more people than you think say yes.

[Megan Senese]

So many people.

[Rhia Batchelder]

And like you said, you guys met seven months ago and now this opportunity like came to fruition today. And like that can happen for other people as well. I know I coach a lot of women who are looking to change careers and they struggle with that.

They feel like I'm bothering them. Like I'm, you know, asking for something and they have a hard time with that part of it. But yeah.

[Megan Senese]

I will say this closing thing. We have a program that's called Network Where You Are. And essentially it's a play on words because we love that.

But Network Where You Are is essentially all the things that both of you just talked about, network where you are physically, right? Like you can network in your town, which I always overlook because I live in like a commuter town essentially, where we're all commuting to Manhattan. And so there've been people who actually live like in my town, which is mind blowing to me.

So there's that. It also, but like network where you are in your career and where you are in wherever, like you are in that emotional state, right? If you don't want to be networking in big conferences, because I don't like that either, then you can do one-to-one.

And as soon as you do the mind shift of like, what works for me and not like having to be on a golf course or over fancy cocktails or that's your thing. Cool. Right.

Like if that's your thing, do that. But finding a way that works for you, it's just redefining what networking is. 

And so Kate, you're probably a great networker. You just don't like that word, right? You were like, no, I'm a good connector.

[Kate Bridal]

Exactly.

[Megan Senese]

I'm a good talker. I'm a good listener. Right.

But I'm not a good networker. No, you are. It's just that you don't like that word.

[Kate Bridal]

Oh, no I never thought I was bad at it. I just didn't like that.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Okay. 

[Megan Senese]

All right. All right. Okay. Okay, lawyer!

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. I just was like, yeah, I can go and be social, but that's fucking exhausting. And I don't feel like it.

[Megan Senese]

You do you. You do you.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Yes. I love that.

[Kate Bridal]

Everybody do you. And also just kind of based on what you were saying, Rhia, even if you are a lurker, if you're liking someone's posts a lot, even if you never comment or you never reach out, just being present in somebody's consciousness, even in small ways, people take notice of that. And so you don't have to be throwing yourself out there.

Even if LinkedIn is uncomfortable for you, you don't have to be posting on it.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Right. Start small.

[Kate Bridal]

Yeah. You don't have to be direct messaging people like Megan did and going crazy. You can just start small.

You can start by seeing what you like. You can start by just reacting to some people's posts. And people take notice of the people who are engaging with them regularly, even in small ways.

It's happened to me before where it's like I've seen someone who's liked a few of my things, and then that person reaches out and I'm like, oh, yeah, their name is in my brain. So I'm more likely to look at that and respond.

You can do small things, I think, is a theme for us a lot, right? Baby steps and small steps are bigger than you think.

[Rhia Batchelder]

I agree. I think that is excellent advice.

[Kate Bridal]

We all gave excellent advice. Good for us. (Rhia laughs.) Well, thank you so much again for having this conversation. Us three brilliantly smart people.

[Rhia Batchelder]

We're brilliantly smart!

[Kate Bridal]

We're so helpful! Yeah, just so happy that this came to be after all this time. 

[Megan Senese]

Thanks for having me.

[Rhia Batchelder]

Thank you, Megan.

[Kate Bridal]

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce.

Thanks for listening.