Kate Bridal

I didn't have a full Minnesotan accent because neither of my parents really did, but I got enough of it that it had to be trained out of me in drama school. But once in a while, like especially if I'm surprised, it'll come out. 

When I was living with my ex, I tripped, and I was like, (In Minnesotan accent) “Oh my god!” His head like came around the doorframe, and he was like, “I'm sorry, what did you just say?” And I was like, “I said, (in mid-atlantic accent) ‘Oh my god.’” And he was like, “Oh no you did not.”

Josey Hoff

(Laughing) Oh my god, I would pay real money to hear you say that accidentally.

Rhia Batchelder

I like how in the corrected one you sounded like a royal.

Intro

Kate

I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

Josey

And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate

And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 18

Kate

Honey, honey?

Josey

Yes, darling?

Kate

You wanna do a podcast? 

Josey

Would love to. 

Kate

Oh, great! It's been a while since you've done one. 

Josey

I know. 

Kate

Rhia and I have been recording like crazy, but I'm so happy to just like see your lovely face again and get to chat with you.

Josey

Likewise, darling. Haha, darling, like from the intro.

Kate

Yeah, good one. Rhia's here too.

Rhia

(Flatly) Hello.

(Kate and Josey Laugh)

Kate

That's all she's feeling to say at the moment. 

Josey

Welcome, friend. 

Kate

We're all having a little bit of a day.

Rhia

We're all having a super good day.

Josey

Yeah. 

(Rhia laughs)

Kate

The Alabama embryo decision just happened. 

Josey

Really threw us all off.

Kate

We're just going to try not to cry, but maybe we will cry. We’ll- this might be the episode.

Rhia

Unclear. Unclear what's going to go down today.

Kate

TBD.

(Kate laughs)

Rhia

We're trying to keep it somewhat light so we don't all just sob. (Rhia and Kate laugh) So on that note.

Kate

(Laughing) On that note, let's talk about big companies laying off their entire DEI teams. No, how are we? How… are we? Let's do a little check in. Like, are we all like…? 

Josey

(Laughing, imitating Kate) How… are we? Check in, yeah. How are we?

Rhia

I have multiple problems right now. (Kate and Rhia laugh) I am happy to be here, though, because there's no one that makes me laugh like Kate and Josey, for real. 

Kate

(Laughing) Oh my god.

Rhia

But I do have multiple concerns all together in a nice little… pancake. Or arepa.

Josey

That sounds pretty good actually.

Rhia

I know I fucking love arepas. (All laugh.) Actually, they're one of my favorite foods. And I am on a very strict budget right now.

Josey

Same.

Rhia

That's one of my problems! I can't order food right now.

Josey

Same

Rhia

And that is going to make me want to cry because now I want an arepa and I can't.

Kate

OK, we're not talking about Rhia's inaccessible arepas anymore. 

Josey

Is there anything that won't make us cry today? 

Kate

Let's find out.

Rhia

Let's find out today on The Legal Burnouts. OK, y'all.

Kate

The last time the three of us were together, we talked about the Oscars and the Barbie situation, which also- The Color Purple got snubbed. We did not talk about that because it was not in the forefront of any of our minds, because it was not at the forefront of any of our news feeds, because…

Josey

We're white. 

Kate

…Issues for women of color tend to get squashed down.

Rhia

Facts. 

Kate

And we're white. So we apologize for that.

Josey

You're like, “Yes, and we're white.” And then you go, “So we apologize for that.”

(Kate and Josey laugh.)

Rhia

I mean, we do. For our people, for everything.

Kate

Yeah, we are sorry.

Rhia

Seriously.

Kate

Blanket apology.

Kate

Anyway, speaking of of race and privilege…

Rhia 

Speaking of race and privilege and corporate news, I'm sure a lot of y'all have seen that Zoom very quietly laid off its entire DEI team. Obviously, this is incredibly concerning because it is not just Zoom. It's not a Zoom issue.

It is a pretty widespread issue where a lot of companies who made very, very, very public and massive promises in 2020 to center diversity and inclusion are now offloading those teams. Zoom did say that it promises to hire consultants for this role. But if you are of a marginalized community in that organization, I can't imagine how that feels to be told basically, this doesn't matter.

And the reason we care about this so deeply, besides the fact that we care about everyone who is in a more marginalized group and has to deal with white corporate American culture, is because we know that Black women, Hispanic women, indigenous women, queer people are suffering from the highest rates of burnout. And now these safeguards that kind of protect them a little bit, or at least try to teach leadership how to put less undue stress on these people, that safeguard is being ripped out from a lot of these organizations. Only less than four years after this entire black square DEI team movement.

So that's what we got on the agenda today. Thoughts, ladies?

Kate

I mean, it's a fucking travesty. We know that it helps combat burnout to have these resources available. And I mean, I wonder really how robust the programming was in Zoom, like the DEI program.

I wonder what that looked like realistically…

Rhia

Right.

Kate

… because some places might have just said, “Yeah,” and then they do, you know, like once every quarter, some half hour meeting about it or something, who knows. But even that at least is something.

Rhia

Right.

Josey

But like how much of their budget did they even put aside for DEI? I mean, they may have brought it in, they may have established a resource for it, but how much did they actually put into that department? If you're cutting it because of budgeting, you're not prioritizing it.

Kate

Right. Notoriously, DEI is one of the first things that goes. Once companies start tightening their belts, they're like, “Oh, what's dispensable?” And for whatever reason, DEI is the thing. 

And then now the other issue, right, is how politicized DEI has become.

Rhia

Yes.

Kate 

And so suddenly it's a political issue for these companies.

Rhia

Exactly.

Josey

And it's interesting that it's programs like that. It's programs that corporate America doesn't find useful for their bottom line. And they're never going to take the money out of the CEOs' pocket.

They're never going to take it out of their highest paid execs' salaries. It's always going to come down to the things that they don't care and value as much, which is the people working for them, especially the people of color.

Rhia

Perfect point, Josey. And like, it is so infuriating because burnout like decreases productivity, it decreases engagement, it decreases like these things that impact profit and like output, which apparently CEOs care about because they're like walking around bitching about how no one wants to work these days. 

And meanwhile, we know that like a lack of inclusion, feeling like you aren't- can't be yourself, you can't be safe psychologically at work is one of the biggest drivers of workplace stress.

And diversity and inclusion, when invested in, when prioritized, makes everyone safer, makes everyone feel better. And we know, again, women at the top of companies see higher profits. Having a Black woman lead a team, there's so much research out there on how many Black women can like motivate and encourage their teams unlike a lot of other populations.

So it's just like, it's so short-sighted because it's like, yeah, they only care about profit, but it's like, this could help your profit.

Kate

Yes.

Josey

Yeah. But they still have to have the posters that represent, you know, show diverse teams. They still have to have recruiting where they're trying to recruit and meet that kind of image that they're trying to maintain.

And so- very similar to our conversation with CJ back in Season One- who is it going to fall on to maintain whatever diversity, inclusion they have, or just getting diversity in the door in the first place? It's going to fall on the people of color that are working there. 

Kate

Yes.

Josey

And when you add that on top of everything else that is already expected of employees standardly, plus how much harder you have to work to prove yourself if you are in a minority, and then you have this put on you as well, you know, they want you to be part of that image for them.

Kate

Oh yeah.

Josey

Honestly, in my opinion, it's just really, really kind of disgusting. You want to be on that good places to work list. But yet you're taking away the very resources that actually support those people.

Rhia

Yeah

Josey

It's just really disheartening.

Rhia

It really is.

Kate

It is. And if you have not listened to CJ Donald's episode from our first season, go back and check it out because it is excellent. He's fantastic.

Rhia

I love CJ too. We've been following each other on TikTok for a long time. 

Kate

Oh really?!

Rhia

Yeah!

Kate

I love it.

Rhia

He was like one of the first people to follow me in the legal community. 

Kate

Aw! He's lovely. 

Josey

He is.

Rhia

He is.

I also wanted to point out that when I started researching this like Zoom article and what other companies were doing this, I saw a lot about big lawsuits being brought against like capital venture firms that are prioritizing DEI or have some sort of scholarship for a minority group or whatever it is. They're getting attacked in such massive ways in order to make it way more costly to even have these programs on the books. 

Kate

Yep.

Rhia

So as much as there's like this pressure, late stage capitalism to slash everything from the budget that isn't CEO pay, there's also the conservative right coming in on their like creepy chariots trying to force this backwards. 

(Kate cracks up.)

Josey

Underhanded.

Kate

(Wheezing with laughter) Creepy chariots!

Rhia

(Laughing) Kate why are you- Why did that get you like that?

Kate

(Laughing) Because I was like, where did that come from? (Rhia laughs) And I love it so much because it feels so accurate to me because they're like so stuck in the past that they would be like in a horse drawn carriage. The creepy chariots.

(Rhia laughs)

Josey

(Laughing) It didn't even register. I was like on this journey with you. I was like, “Yes, creepy chariots, underhanded.”

Rhia

(Laughing) Exactly.

Kate

I know, it made so much sense. That's part of why I loved it was it like really hit me in the exact right way.

Josey

It's biblical and whatnot.

Kate

Yeah.

Rhia

But seriously, it’s like this is part of their little psycho ass plan to roll back all the progress that we've seen over the last like five, six years, whatever. And I know I've talked to you all about this before. That's very classic throughout history.

Like when we see any sort of forward progress, there's this backlash. It's very normal pattern, but it's incredibly infuriating to live through right now.

Kate

I know! You just think, like you ride this high because you're like, oh, everything's going so much better. We're progressing. we're progressing, we're progressing. And you kind of forget in that moment how it is just going to backslide. That's kind of a guarantee.

Josey

Yeah.

Rhia

Yeah. When I was helping my professor in law school write Sex and the Constitution, my job was to like review a lot of reproductive rights literature. And I remember doing so much research on the backlash and thinking like, OK, well, then we overcame it. And yes, there was this pushback and whittling of Roe v.Wade in a way that was concerning. But I just… I honestly really couldn't have predicted what we're seeing right now. And I'm fucking scared.

Kate

Yeah.

Josey

I mean, I knew it was going to go far beyond abortion back when I was working on cases that were in the appellate courts. But IVF and some of the things we're seeing is just it's crazy. It shouldn't be that we can progress this far on so many different issues only to have it pulled back again.

Rhia

I mean, to come at DEI from all these different angles at once is kind of mind blowing, right? Like that takes deep organization. And we're just going to have to do something because also what I'm hearing is a lot of people feeling disenfranchised and feeling disillusioned and feeling like, yeah, oh, well, there's nothing that we can do.

Kate

Yeah.

Rhia

And it's like, I understand that and feel that and sob and rage. But like, holy shit, we cannot just let them have the reins. 

Kate

Yeah.

Rhia

(Choking up) It’s so scary. It really is.

Josey

We're all fortunate that we live in areas where we haven't seen a lot of, you know, those rights taken away from us quite yet. The reality is that most of the country is living in areas where this will affect them, if not now at some point, you know, and so nobody's immune to feeling the repercussions of this.

Rhia

No.

Josey

I wish that would sink in, I think a little bit more for some, because this does require urgency. This requires a reaction. And it requires a lot more than it's getting.

Kate

Especially with corporate America. I mean, I have zero faith in any corporation at this point, to be honest. And I'm not saying that it's not hard when you are getting hit with massive lawsuits all of the time, and you do have a company to run, you do have a business that you have to be concerned about.

Rhia

Right

Kate 

But at a certain point, if you are a huge business, you do have power to push back, you have power to say no and inspire other big corporations. If enough of them were banding together, you know… But that's a big ask, I guess.

Rhia

I think we as white people, and if our listeners are white, like we need to take responsibility for this. And like, even through our tears, like which… (Rhia’s voice shakes) I could like burst into tears at any second thinking about the Alabama decision. I'm sure you can hear my voice right now.

Like I, it is so hard to process. And as someone who like, you know, I don't know if I want kids, I'm 33. It feels really personal to me. And like, I have a lot of friends who have gone through IVF, which is so personal. And I just feel like the creepiness is really getting to me. It's so scary.

But I just want us to remember, like, it is so important for us to show up and care and be loud. 

Kate

Yes.

Rhia

Even though it feels like everything is way too much right now. We have to, because even us who are in the reproductive rights space, I did not see this IVF thing coming this year.

Josey

No, even our case that was going to go to the Supreme Court, or the cases that were in the appellate courts... i remember reading them. Upon first glance, you don't see how strong it is. You don't see how vague it is and the trigger laws and how it will affect other states.

It wasn't even a thought in my mind that IVF would ever be on the table.

Kate

No, because what- it seems so counter to everything that you normally hear, which is that we want people to have babies. But we want them to have them the right way, and on our terms, obviously, I mean, it's all about control of women's bodies.

Rhia

Right

Josey

And we only want some people to have them. 

Rhia

Right.

Kate

But to bring it back to the issue of DEI and corporate and what- your point, Rhia, us as white women, but white people in general, the push for DEI has to come from all of us because it is good for all of us. If you were a white man, DEI is good for you too. I promise you.

And what I have been told when I have approached leadership about DEI is that it is bad for companies because it causes division, which is bullshit. But it's like, that's what is going to get thrown back at even women, white women. You get so much more pushback if you are a Black woman.

But if white dudes are going and being like, hey, we need more DEI, like maybe, maybe some companies will be more inclined to listen. And it's just the understanding that it's good for everyone, long term, short term.

It’s all of our responsibility because we're all fucking exhausted. But some of us have more to be exhausted about than others. And those of us who have less have to pick up some of the fucking slack.

Josey

What is it going to take for those changes to be pushed, to be implemented? It's going to take white men stepping up and helping to push those things forward because they have the seats of power.

Kate

Yes. And to change the narrative around it, because the white men are the ones pushing this narrative that DEI is bad and that DEI divides companies and all of this. 

Rhia

Right.

Kate

That's white CEOs parroting each other over and over and over again. I see it on LinkedIn.

Rhia

Yes.

Kate

So we need white CEOs stepping up and saying, no, actually, here are the numbers like Rhia was talking about. Here's the research that shows that this is not true.

Rhia

The data!

Kate

Yes!

Josey

And not to say that white women are not CEOs and they aren't-

Kate

No, no.

Josey

They don't have… Anyone can be on the wrong side of this.

Kate

Yes.

Josey

But we do know that statistically, there are a higher percentage of white male CEOs. And unfortunately, in a lot of ways, it's in their hands, just like reproductive rights are currently in their hands as well. 

(Rhia and Kate laugh)

Kate

Oh, god.

Rhia

Feeling super good about that. 

Even us, small fish, small fries, whatever, in interviews, we can ask like, “What does your DEI team look like?” That really matters to me.

If white men start asking that, they're going to be like, oh, what? 

Kate

Yep.

Rhia

Because again, research shows that the way white men are perceived when they have asks, feelings, demands is still incredibly different than the way even white women are perceived when we have asks, feelings and demands at work. So if there are men listening to us, take that and please run with it.

Kate

I think also it's like… Shit, I just had a thought. It fell out cause I’m so in a million places right now. 

Josey

That’s okay.

Rhia

It’s okay.

Kate

Damn it, whatever. It's not coming back to me.

Anyway, yes, we should all, everybody do your part. Like, white men, please help us out. We hate to ask, but…

Rhia

(Laughing) We hate to ask! 

Kate

We hate to bother you on your vacation in Aspen, but we really need your help.

Rhia

Excuse me, white men, I know that you are dissociating from all the world's problems because they don't personally affect you and shout out to you, (Kate and Josey laugh) but we may have our entire bodies seized by the government very soon.

Kate

Handmaid's tale is getting realer and realer.

Rhia

And we're feeling scared. 

Rhia

Also, you know who this disproportionately affects? LGBTQIA community, minorities…

Kate

Yes.

Rhia

Yes.

Josey

Women who don't want to have a partner to have a child or are older when they decide to have a child.

Rhia

Right. Who want to prioritize their careers. 

Josey

Because we don't want non-traditional families. And by non-traditional, I mean a white man and a white woman. 

Kate

Yes.

Rhia

Having babies in their twenties.

Kate

Yes. Having babies in their early twenties.

Josey

Yes.

Kate

I'm sorry. We're bitter today, y'all. But sometimes I think that our listeners need that.

Sometimes I need that. I need to hear other people being as mad as I am and as upset as I am.

Rhia

True.

Kate

And we're all in this together.

And I know there are fantastic white men out there. You know, I'm married to one. I know that y'all care. And so I, let's do it, right?

(Kate laughs.)

Rhia

Bold.

Kate 

I mean, not all of them, but…

Rhia

Some of them.

Kate

Some.

Josey

To the best of their ability. Yes. 

Rhia

Right.

Josey

I have white men in my family as well. (Kate laughs) They are top-notch.

Kate

Okay. Well, great. We're a mess today, as you can tell, but that is okay. I like this. I like this. 

As Jordana said on her episode, vulnerability begets vulnerability, which means our vulnerability hopefully will help other people have conversations like this.

Josey

Rage begets rage.

Kate

Rage begets rage. 

This actually ties into DEI and that issue because people need spaces to talk about this stuff when it happens.

Rhia

So true!

Kate

Because having to smother this shit down, having to not talk about this stuff, having to go about your workday as though it didn't happen will lead to burnout really, really fast. 

Rhia

Yeah.

Kate

So if you do not have spaces for LGBTQIA employees, for your global majority employees, for your women employees, for whoever it is, to have the space to breathe about this stuff and talk about this stuff and cry about this stuff if they need to, your productivity is going to go down because what's going to happen is those employees are spending their time thinking about that, whether you indulge it or not.

If you give them a space and an outlet to do it, then they are more likely to come, A, feel supported by you, B, be motivated to do more work for you, and C, be able to come back full force and actually be productive.

Josey

It is so important. This goes down even to the manager level. Again, bringing it back to the people that do have more power in these situations.

I was super fortunate, and also it was unfortunate, when Roe v. Wade was overturned, for example. I was working for a company that did not have DEI resources to help their employees get through that, but I was really, really, really fortunate that I had an exceptional manager, a white man, who made the space for me, made the space for my colleagues, and made a point to say something about it during a company meeting in order to bring attention to the fact that people are struggling.

Just on the basic manager level, you can make such a difference in just how you treat your employees and how you react to news like this.

Kate

That's such a great point.

Josey

I was able to come back the next day totally focused, and that would not have happened without that space being made.

Kate

Yeah. If the space doesn't exist in your company, you can make it.

Rhia

A hundred percent. Josey's always going to remember that. 

People downplay the impact of those small statements or that small showing of emotional intelligence and empathy, but those things have a massive impact, especially on your high performers. That really matters.

That is what DEI teaches managers. That is the main function. Here's how you understand the sensitivities and stressors these different groups are facing, and here's how we communicate in order to reduce that or create these safe spaces.

In this world where so much chaos is happening, so much feels unstable, so much feels ungrounded, so much feels in question, we're so stressed out. To cut this resource that is one of the only ways that managers are being trained in emotional intelligence and empathy is beyond. Such a horrific time to make this move. And… ugh.

Kate

If you are a manager, if you're not satisfied with your company's policies, if you want to help your employees, just try and do your best to do it. Even the effort is appreciated. Just making it known that you are a safe space to talk about those things can make a world of difference, at least to your team.

It might not be happening company-wide, and that might be really shitty to see and really hard to deal with, but at least you can demonstrate. Then maybe, who knows, you'll be the highest performing team, and your CEO will be like, “How’d you do that?” You can be like, “I'll tell you,” and just be an example for other people, too.

Rhia

Even if you don't know what to say, asking a group of women, “Hey, what can I do? What do you guys need? How can I help?”

You don't have to be the guy who knows everything to say or the girl who knows everything to say or whatever. You can ask your people, and that would mean a lot as well. I think that's something that trips people up.

They're like, I'm not certain what to say. I'm like, ask.

Kate

Oh, that reminded me of what I was going to say earlier! I think that sometimes white people hesitate to dive into that space because it almost feels appropriative, and they feel like it's not their place in a way. 

Rhia

Facts.

Kate

I understand that, that you're like, “I shouldn't be the head of our DEI committee, I'm a white man.” (Kate laughs)  I get that impulse, and no, that's probably not ideal. But if you're the one who's willing to speak up about it, eventually you will get other people, but at least someone is making some noise about it. 

And it can feel really uncomfortable, and definitely try and go about it in a way that is sensitive. But I understand the hesitancy in that aspect sometimes.

Josey

I think that that's such a good point, Kate, because again, going back to my own experience, I was the one that brought up to my manager, “This is a really challenging day for me. It's challenging that this hasn't been discussed. It's challenging that there isn't a space for this right now.”

He then came to our team, me first, and apologized for not making that space, for not addressing it, for not calling that meeting, and then the next day addressed it to the team of just, “I'm sorry, and I want you to know I'm here to support you however you need to be supported.” You're not going to do it right all the time, and we are going to get it wrong and stumble and put our foot in our mouth and whatever, but the ability to self-reflect, take criticism, and then apologize and just do better. 

Kate

Yeah

Josey

We're not asking to be perfect. We're not asking for it to be right all the time, but the effort and the acknowledgement of trying is far better than nothing.

Rhia

I agree. Also, if you're a white dude, to Kate's point, trying to start up DEI or team, I know that there are like courses and resources out there put out by Black women, so purchase them.

Kate

There you go.

Rhia

From one of them. Use that as your guide and go advocate your ass off, guided by someone that really has that insider knowledge. Just a little pro tip. Pay Black women.

Kate

There you go. Great tip. 

Okay. There we go. I think that's good. We ended on a note of tips, stuff you can do, empowerment.

We got it. 

Josey

Yeah. 

Kate

(Laughing) Do we have the energy to do the career clarity?

Because we could just...

Rhia

I don't know. It's up to you guys. I honestly think that was a decent fucking episode.

Kate

Yeah.

Rhia

Because I think you're right that people do want to hear us be upset, and I'm not sure...

Kate

Yeah. We had this topic planned. We just were also going to do like, oh yeah, career clarity, but I feel like that's better to do on a day that our energy is different.

I think this was the energy today, and that's okay.

Rhia

I think you're kind of right, because talking about the future today, Kate's like, “So if the future exists… I'd be interested in…”

(All laugh)

Kate

Yeah. If the future exists. Let's figure out if I have a future before we talk about my career.

Josey

Let's just see how this plays out, and then we'll go back to that.

Kate

So for our listeners, originally, what we were going to do is we were going to spend a little time talking about the Zoom DEI stuff, and then we were going to do a career clarity session with Rhia, which is something she does with her clients, because I'm in a career crossroads a little bit, and I'm trying to figure out what I might want to be when I grow up, and she was going to talk me through the things that she goes through with her clients. 

But you know what? That's not the energy today. And here at The Legal Burnouts, we go with the flow, and we take our days as they come to us, and we practice what we preach, and we do not force ourselves to do things that we are not feeling. 

And I think that that episode will have a much better energy if we come back at it on another day when we're all feeling a little more refreshed. And you know what that means? It just means that you get another episode with Josey and Rhia and me. Maybe it could even be our last episode of the season.

Josey

Oh, that'd be cute. 

Rhia

That would be cute.

Kate

We'll figure that out another time. Today, we needed to vent.

Rhia

Yeah. Yeah, I am excited for that because, y'all, I know that a lot of people struggle with the how do I even go about figuring out what could be next for me? So we're just going to talk through Kate's career and the things she likes, the things she doesn't like.We'll kind of brainstorm some ideas. 

I could also share a little bit of how I decided how to make my sharp left turn and how it made sense. 

Kate

Yes!

Rhia

And I wonder, maybe now that we might have time, maybe we have time for a few of y'all's questions if you have any.

Kate

Yeah! The listeners, yes. Not you, Josey.

Don't worry, you're not on the spot.

Josey

I thought you were talking to Kate and I, and I was like- 

Rhia

Josey, if you could give me a list of 150 questions, that would be great.

Kate

We have an email address- it is stories@thelegalburnouts.com- that we usually open up for if you have a story about burnout that you'd like to share, which you are always welcome to do. But it's so S as in… I don't know what… snake?

Rhia

(Laughing) Immediately fails. Immediately.

Kate

(Laughing) S-T-O-R-I-E-S at thelegalburnouts.com. 

(Josey laughs)

Rhia

(Laughing) “S as in… I don’t know.” 

Kate

Stories at thelegalburnouts.com.

So if you have questions, anything you want about career transitions, send those questions to stories at thelegalburnouts.com or hit one of us up on LinkedIn, Instagram, whatever, what have you. You can also message the podcast on those platforms and send us some questions.

Rhia

I think that's cute. I have to say, you guys, thank you for this. I needed a collective cry and I needed a collective rage and a collective laugh.

And I got them all, all the emotions.

Josey

Got ya. 

Rhia

Just so y'all who are listening know, community is a stress reliever. Laughter is a stress reliever.

Crying is a stress reliever. And making room for your rage also helps you move through it. So this was honestly incredibly helpful for me.

I know the episode did not go as we had planned, but…

Kate

I'm happy with it. 

Rhia

I love you both.

Kate

Yeah, love you too. And on the note of community and resources, I can't remember if I've shouted this out on the podcast before, but I've shouted on my LinkedIn multiple times. If you are a Black woman, there is a community for you called The Great Exhale.

It is started by Lisa Hurley, who is awesome. And she started this as a soft space for Black women to go, to vent, to do all of the things that we just did as three white women on this podcast in a safe, soft environment. Check out The Great Exhale.

I wish I had a resource for every single one of you like that, but that was one that just sprang to mind.

Rhia

I love that. We are sending big fucking hugs to everyone who's scared, everyone who hasn't felt their feelings yet, everyone who's crying, everyone who's mad. We're with you.

And we promise to keep talking about it.

Kate

Yeah. 

Josey

Especially to all the women in Alabama feeling this right now.

Kate

Yep.

Josey

You're in our thoughts and we're...

Rhia

We're crying with you. We really are.

Kate

And sometimes you do just need to let it out and cry about it. I'm managing somehow to not cry. It's not a good thing or a bad thing.

Rhia

Kate has to keep it together.

Josey

I'm reliving all the stories from the women that I worked on…

Rhia

(Choking up) I think for Josey and I too, as we mentioned, I think it's just extra scary when you're in the legal world and this was really not. It was like, maybe in five, six years, if this keeps going, they might go after IVF. The timeline has accelerated so aggressively that it's just scaring the shit out of me and I don't even know how to process it.

I miss being in my legal spaces. 

Josey

Yeah, me too. 

Rhia

With the lawyers, I like... fought for years... Like, you know. You feel a sense of community doing that with other women and like, I just, it's like a weird part of this that's like, I miss being on the front lines. 

Kate

Yeah.

Rhia

Like I feel like useless. I feel like I'm not suing anyone. So like, I don't know what to do with myself. And it's scary.

Josey

I feel like I'm watching all this work, the work that was the most important, this is the work I'm the most proud of that I've ever done in my life. (Choking up) And to watch the, you know, 15 hour days and the interviews that you have with those women and everything and to see it all crumble is just, it's… And then to not be in the space to do anything about it, to not be fighting for it anymore, you've just left those cases.

I feel very helpless and very like, what am I doing?

Rhia

Yeah, guilty.

Kate

I can't imagine how hard that would be to have stepped away from that space and feel that now. And I'm so sorry that that's something that you're both feeling and feeling so deeply and it's completely understandable, and all of your emotions are 100% valid.

But I also do want to say that you're both fierce. You're both on here talking about it fearlessly, which is not an easy thing to do. And you might not be on the front lines of the legal battles anymore, but the ones that you were on the front lines of, I mean, they're not gone. 

They are still there to inspire other people. They're still there to inspire other attorneys to look at your arguments, to look at your cases, to look at your briefs, to say, “What can I latch on to for future to fight this?” You have built groundwork that will matter and that does matter and that does not stop mattering.

Rhia

(Emotionally) Oh, Kate, thank you.

Josey

Yeah. 

Kate 

How about this? Not that we can't end on disaster, because, fuck, it's a disaster, but...

Rhia 

We don't wanna end on us crying and being like, “What's gonna happen to us?”

(Kate laughs)

Kate

But I mean, like, is there a breathing, anything- like tapping I know you've talked about, Rhia, like anything for people who are feeling like it's too much right now?

Rhia

Okay, yes.

Kate 

Maybe we do a little bit together right now and we all like guide our listeners through it a little bit. 

Rhia

I love tapping.

Kate

And then that can be our like little practical thing for today. 

Rhia

Okay, let's do it. Okay, so tapping is called…

Josey

Hand on the stomach…?

Rhia

…emotional freedom technique. No, you both are wrong.

(Kate laughs)

Kate

Look how quickly Rhia stopped crying and she went into teacher mode. She was just like, “Um excuse me, you’re doing it incorrectly.”

Josey

(Laughing) Yeah!

Rhia

(Laughing) It's so true! Why did that work so well? I was like, I'm ready.

Okay, so tapping is another name for the emotional freedom technique. I love it because there's so much research out there on how it really does help us move through big feelings and not store them in our bodies. 

If we are looking at things where we're asking questions, like what's gonna happen to the future of my body, (Rhia laughs) there might be stress associated with that. 

So you start by hitting… you take one hand and you kind of like hit the, what would you call this? The soft part of your hand, like in between your fingers and your wrist.

Kate

Okay, so on the outer, so on your pinky side of your hand, like below your pinky, the outer edge of your hand with your other hand, tap it.

Rhia

Yes, yes, yes.

Josey

Like this?

Rhia

Exactly. You start there and you're just kind of like hitting, you're tapping and you're just gonna tap and then you're gonna repeat after me:

Even though the world is going to fucking shit right now.

Josey and Kate

Even though the world is going to fucking shit right now.

Rhia 

We are safe and protected probably.

(All laugh)

Kate

We are safe and protected probably.

Josey

No we're not!

Kate

At this moment

Josey

Probably.

Rhia 

At this moment!

Kate 

Now we're tapping our heads.

Rhia 

We're tapping at the top of your head. 

Kate

With both hands.

Rhia

Even though the right is coming for all of our rights… I don't know, guys, I don't know if I can make it. I'm just…

(Rhia dissolves into laughter, Josey snorts.)

Kate

(Laughing) It's okay. 

Josey

I don’t think we should be saying words, I think maybe that's the problem.

Rhia 

That's true. OK, listen, y'all. That was a failed attempt at tapping, but here's what you can do. Go on YouTube. Look up a real EFT practitioner who isn't in a total doom spiral. (Kate laughs)

Look up EFT tapping for stress, EFT tapping for safety, EFT tapping for rage and go through it. It really does help, especially if you're spiraling, but even if you're just like sitting with some rage. Also, like one of the things that I always recommend is creating like a safe space for your anger. Like scream into pillows, punch some pillows. There is like a somatic therapist I follow who says like pushing up against a wall really hard can help with that feeling of rage.

Like create space for it, especially as women, I think that we're so, we're kept so far away from our anger. We should be feeling that, like we're mad, we're upset, like let yourself go through those feelings and then make a fucking plan.

Josey

Personal favorite is when I'm home alone or I'm in a room alone or whatever it is, no one can hear me. I say everything exactly as I would want to say it out loud. I just get all of my whole monologue, my whole argument, my whole just everything that I'm thinking and feeling. I say it all out loud. 

Because I rarely ever say exactly what I'm thinking you're feeling in the exact words that I'm thinking you're feeling it, so… get it out.

Rhia

I love that idea.

Kate

Yes. And for my part, I love, I find music very therapeutic. I have rage playlists. I have sleep playlists. Go and just listen to whatever like angry- whatever your vibe is. Like make yourself a playlist for it that you can just slap on and that you remember the feeling you were in when you made it and you can just kind of cathart that way. 

Something you can like.scream sing or like yell in the car or whatever it is. That's so that's my recommendation if that's how you process stuff, because that's kind of how I do it through music a lot of the time.

Rhia

Yeah, fuck yeah.

Kate

All right, well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to us laugh and cry and rage and bitch. And we hope that this has been cathartic for people other than us. Like we said, we're gonna continue to show up. We're gonna continue to talk about this shit so that, you know, if you can't, you don't have to. And if you want to, you have a jumping off point.

All right, we love you all.

Rhia

Love you.

Josey

Bye friends.

Outro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by growlforce. Thanks for listening.