Henry Nelson-Case: Let’s talk about, like, depression and anxiety in the law.

Josey Hoff: (Laughing) This is exactly how I’d like to start my morning.

Kate Bridal: I’ve got my mug with Hannibal Lecter on it that says, “Eat the rude.” I’m in the mood, I’m ready to go.

Henry: Take a seat, pop a Xanax, let’s fucking go. 

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law.

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it. 

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 11

Henry: I’ve just looked at the time, it's been like half an hour. 

Kate: (Laughing) Yep!

(Henry laughs)

Josey: Oh my god, okay, wow.

Kate: Okay, okay, okay. I will do your intro. 

Henry: Do I just sit here and…? 

Josey: Enjoy it.

Kate: Yeah, just sit there. Show other good men what to do while two women are talking and just be quiet. 

(Josey and Henry laugh)

Henry: Never!!! 

(Kate laughs)

Josey: (Laughing) It's 5 a.m. and we're coming out spicy!

Henry: (Laughing) Yeah!

Kate: All right, whoo! 

Josey: I'm ready.

Kate: Honey, honey.

Josey: Yes, darling?

Kate: You want to do a podcast?

Josey: Yes, I do. (Henry laughs. Josey laughs while speaking.) I would like it to be known that he laughed before I did!

Henry: (Still laughing) Sorry!

Kate: (Laughing) Very, very glad that you want to do a podcast today because we have a fantastic guest, who obviously we get along with way too well. (Josey and Henry laugh) We are joined today by Henry Nelson-Case. Henry, AKA That Corporate Lawyer, is a lawyer, content creator and TEDx speaker.

(Josey laughs, making Kate laugh.) 

Josey: “Corporate lawyer is a lawyer.” 

(Henry laughs)

Kate: I would just like to say Henry wrote this, so it’s not on me to-

(Kate breaks into laughter as Josey and Henry laugh.)

Henry: But also all factually true.

Josey: We sell out our guests on this episode, so, you know.

Henry: I'm so happy I came on here to be laughed at. 

(Kate and Josey laugh)

Kate: To be belittled. (Recovering from laughter) Oh my god, holy shit. Henry, AKA that corporate lawyer is, (Laughing) as the name would imply, a lawyer, content creator, and TEDx speaker based in England. He makes content that challenges toxic corporate behaviors, which we love to see, and his content also focuses on mental wellbeing. Through his content, he likes to engage with the community (Henry snorts into his water bottle while drinking, causing Josey to spit-take with her coffee and Kate to laugh) and openly discuss experiences in the hope to bring positivity and change to the workplace. We'll see if we can get any discussion about…

(Kate dissolves into laughter)

Josey: You make me spit!

Henry: Just to clarify, we're not laughing at wellbeing and mental health, because it’s not a joke.

Kate: No, we're laughing because we have not managed to get our shit together for roughly 34 minutes now…

Josey: Why is this so hard?

Kate: …because we just keep talking and joking around. 

(Kate takes a deep breath.)

Josey: Okay.

Kate: Henry… Hi. 

Henry: (Laughing) Hi.

Kate: (Laughing) Thanks for being here.

Henry: Thank you for having me.

Josey: (Laughing) We are really thrilled to have you.

Kate: Seriously though, thank you for being here. 

Henry: No, thank you for having me, I love you guys.

Kate: We love you too. Can we call you Henners?

Josey: Oh yeah.

Henry: You have my permission. 

Kate: Fuck yes.

Henry: Call me whatever you like.

(Kate and Henry laugh.)

Kate: Careful.

Henry: Just happy to have someone to talk to.

(All laugh)

Kate: Henry is just desperate for human contact (Henry laughs), which is why we trapped him on this podcast. 

(Josey laughs)

Henry: Pick on a man while he's vulnerable and weak!

Josey: That's the only time to do it. 

Kate: Oh, okay, but seriously, Henry would love to hear what brought you here besides crippling loneliness. 

(Henry laughs)

Josey: (Laughing) And anxiety and depression.

Henry: Fill every hour of my day with anything but my own thoughts.

(Kate laughs)

Kate: The most inspirational episode yet. 

Henry: Yeah, but no, for real. So I'm actually a qualified lawyer, and about almost two years ago now started making content on social media about workplace wellbeing. I did a TED talk about sort of toxic masculinity, corporate wellbeing. And it's kind of just like a path I've gone down through sharing my own sort of experiences within the legal profession and talking to other sort of lawyers. Because I think, for the most part, my experiences aren't unique to me and so many of us go through similar experiences, but we don't quite feel comfortable enough to talk about them. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Henry: And I think the legal profession generally is like, it's a great profession to be in, in terms of it's like academically challenging intellectually challenging, you get to work with great people for the most part, and on some really cool projects. But there are still some negatives to it such as the intensity of it, the burnout rates, which I'm sure you guys- well I know you guys have both experienced as well.

Kate: Yeah. And it's interesting to me to speak to you because everyone else we've spoken to has been practicing here in the U.S. So it is interesting to me that- how universal this issue of burnout in the legal profession is. Because I think it can be thought of as such an American thing, this sort of like grind, capitalist-focused, very intense burn the candle at both ends culture. But there are toxic workplaces all over the place, obviously, which we know. And I would love to hear more about kind of your journey into becoming an attorney and then your burnout story as well.

Henry: Yeah, sure. I did my undergraduate degree in law and then my postgraduate degree, which you kind of have to do to qualify as a lawyer here in England. And then I did our two year training contract, which is kind of like you do two months as a junior, well, a trainee lawyer in four different departments, six months in each. And then at the end of that two years, you then qualify as a lawyer and you're good to go and start practicing as a junior lawyer. So I did that. December 2018 is when I qualified. December the 17th is when I got my certificate to say, “Hanners, mate, you've done it.” (Kate laughs) Cheers. Thanks.

Four years later, here I am. Didn't ever expect this to be part of my career. I always thought I would just be a lawyer for the rest of my life. I feel like I would have been okay with doing that. But quite soon on in my legal career, I realized that I didn't want to be a partner. That was never an ambition of mine.

Kate: Mm.

Henry: Because I looked at some of the partners that I worked with and some of them were great guys. I use “guys” as a collective for both men and women. So I'll say great people actually, because that's... 

Kate: I was gonna say it's probably safe to assume that like most of them are guys, but... 

(Kate laughs)

Henry: Yeah, to be fair most of them are white middle-aged men, yeah. 

Josey: True, but I use “guys” for both as well, so. 

Henry: But yeah, I looked I looked at them and I thought I don't want that life. Some some of them like had their shit together. They were like managing children. They were doing like great in their careers, they were partners. They were like exercising. They were doing all these amazing things. I’m like where is the catch? What is where is your flaw?! 

(Kate laughs)

But I think for the most part I didn't want that lifestyle. Then I left private practice and went in-house, which when I was training or when I was studying, I didn't realize that in-house was even an option. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Henry: So then I went in-house for a bit and it was great because you didn't have to worry about time recording, and you really got to understand what the business needs were, where the business was heading, and how you as a lawyer can support that business. But a lot of the issues that I found in private practice were still issues that I found in-house. And I think that was just- what it seemed to be just lawyers generally, we're all kind of a similar mindset. And I think because for the most part, we're all sort of driven, ambitious. 

When I was in-house is when I started making content. I don't know about you guys, but when I started making content, I never anticipated people to actually see it. 

(Kate laughs)

Josey: Yeah, same. Same, Henry.

Kate: Yeah.

Henry: Yeah, until I downloaded TikTok in 2021, I didn’t even know… I knew what it was, but I'd never used it. I thought it was just like the Gen Z dancing app. I was watching it, I was like, this content is so relatable. I always say that I think I had a bad day so I posted a TikTok. I don't know why I did it. I honestly couldn't tell you. I'm a middle child, maybe I was just craving attention. (Kate laughs) Maybe I had something to say. I honestly don't know, but I think I just had a bad day. So I was like, do you know what? I need a creative outlet. 

And really interestingly, when I was a lot younger, I used to be massively into video editing.

Kate: Oh cool!

Henry: I wasn't very good at it, but I liked doing it. You kind of regress back to the things that you liked doing as a kid as you get older. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Henry: For me making content was that creative outlet. And then when people started watching it, and it was relatable, and I saw people saying, like, “This is exactly how I feel. I feel the same like, thank you for sharing this,” I was really overwhelmed by the amount of people that were all living the same sort of experiences. Because I'd never really spoken about them before, I didn't talk about it.

And then I thought, I thought this real like growing platform where I can positively make a difference and encourage people to talk, encourage people to share their experiences, both good and bad. And then it got to a point working in-house and being a content creator became two full time jobs. Trying to do all of that whilst like navigate relationships, friendships, family, having a social life on top, all became massively overwhelming. And I wasn't really enjoying anything, I was just doing things because I had to do them. And it kind of had taken the fun out of the content side of things. 

The law side of things, I was just like, trying to get that done so I could go and focus on the other stuff because like I had evenings to do content. And there was just not enough of me to do everything. 

Kate: Yeah.

Henry: And you just start resenting things. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Henry: End of last year is when I decided to quit my job, my full time job as a lawyer, and become a consultant lawyer. But walking away from something where you kind of attach your entire identity to it- people know you as the lawyer--

Josey: Oh yeah.

Henry: -- and like your whole self worth is almost attached to being this professional. To then say, I am still going to be that lawyer, but I'm just going to be practicing more flexibly and in a different way so I can focus on some of these other things… And if something that I share or say can help current lawyers or next generation lawyers, then whilst I still have that platform, to use that platform and try and make some positive change I think is great. 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah. I think that there's something- I just made a post about anxiety the other day, and… I started doing it just as a way of seeing if it would help me with my anxiety and I found that it did, and it might be partially what we were saying earlier, (Laughing) just the need of human connection, whatever, like… (Henry laughs.) But it's also, I'm like, if I'm gonna feel this way, the least I can do is put it out there and hopefully it helps somebody else to know that I'm feeling this way, and it at least makes it feel productive.

Henry: It's almost like journaling.

Kate: Yeah, and I find it comforting in a weird way.

Josey: Social media and like content creating is such an interesting thing to me that I'm only just now getting into because, as I'm sure is not a shock at this point, I'm not a- I’m a very private person. So, putting my image out there on the internet was never something that I thought I would do. But since we started doing this, the seeing people's reactions, the comments, seeing like the camaraderie that it builds, it really does impact people on a day to day. And I think that that ability to create community while still being in different parts of the world, you know, is such a unique thing and a privilege. So it's, it's really cool to start getting into that and seeing a bit more of it. 

Henry: That's my favorite thing.

Kate: I would just like to say I didn't force Josey into…

(Kate laughs)

Josey: No, no, no. Well…

Henry: I heard differently! Blink twice if you're in danger, Josey.

Josey: No. 

(Josey laughs)

Kate: Henry has already called the police on your behalf.

Henry: Swat team drops in.

Josey: Like the helicopter that's like hovering with the ladder. 

Kate: (Laughing) Josey just flies off. She’s joining the witness protection program. 

(All laugh)

Henry: But no, the point that you made about the... 

Josey: (Laughing) I made a point?

(Kate laughs)

Henry: Yeah, a good one!

Kate: We were doing so well.

Josey: Great! 

Henry: Yeah. So we’ve got about 10 minutes of usable content so far.

Kate: Yep, it’s gonna be great.

Josey: You were saying I made a point?

Henry: Yeah. Around the having the worldwide connection. Doing social media and content creation within the legal profession has allowed me to meet and talk with people and share experiences with people that I would never have otherwise crossed paths with. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

Henry: And the opportunities that has created sort of professionally and to sort of share experiences. We can share our legal experiences, but when you layer on top of that also being a content creator, having other creators in the same space that kind of know that unique space and the nuances around it, it's really nice to have because it's such a unique experience. 

You can moan to your mates about it, and they’re like, “Mate, you literally just post a TikTok.” And you’re like, yeah, but the amount of work and everything that goes into running social media as a business… A lot of law firms say they want their students or potential junior lawyers to be commercially aware. 

Running a business- if that's a social media business, an Etsy business, whatever it is- that's the most commercially aware that you're ever going to get without being in practice and talking to clients because you are literally living business. You're negotiating the contracts. You're talking about the deliverables, the finances. If I can see somebody doing that, hustling, building a business, then I know that they are going to be able to negotiate contracts comfortably. They know what they're doing. 

Of course, there's going to be a lot of learning and development they need, junior lawyers, we all do. But to know that someone's got the confidence to do that. And also time management skills. This takes a lot of time. This and everything else.

Kate: It does.

Henry: Mad!

Kate: Yeah. It's like emotionally exhausting at a certain point too, like to continue to put yourself out there. And I don't get that much exposure, I'm still very, very small. But that feeling of obligation, like what you were saying, Henry, where nothing felt fun anymore, even the content creation… For me, the big piece of that was like, “Oh, well, people are looking at my profile, people are waiting for me to post something else.” And I'm like, that's so… No they're not. 

(All laugh)

You're okay. But it's hard to feel like you don't owe people more. And I'm glad to hear that you're taking a week off of making content. I think that's really important to take breaks when you feel like you need them and not feel like you have to apologize for them or explain them away or anything like that.

Josey: Full disclosure, I had that opinion of content creating before, you know, we started this is I was like, it's just a side thing, it can't be that hard, it's all these things. Which I shouldn't have thought because I took a Photoshop class once in college and it was so hard. (Kate and Henry laugh) But watching (Laughing) how hard Kate works on this stuff and the amount of time it takes... I now have a different- (She trails off, laughing) I can’t, you guys. (Kate laughs) You’re smiling at me and I’m starting to laugh!

Kate: No, it just sounded deeply sarcastic.

(Henry and Josey laugh)

Josey: I know! And I was trying really hard to keep it together during that. 

Henry: Yeah, I had this the same like thought process as well. That I just thought people just looked good and like danced on TikTok, and it's not that deep. Until you kind of get involved in it. And I guess it's similar for people that- Some of my friends that don't work, office jobs or like desk jobs, when I was fully in practice and I would say like, “Lads, I'm not going to make it out for like six, 7pm tonight. Sorry, gonna have to cancel.” And they were like, “Can you not just leave at five?” Technically I could, but…

Kate: But can I?

Henry: Yeah. Realistically, if I stood up at five and was like, “I'm tapping out, see you lads…” Even though no one may say anything, there's very much an unwritten rule that you just keep working. 

Josey: Mm-hmm.

Henry: That’s a kind of toxic mentality that I didn't really agree with. 

Kate: And was that like also when you were in-house or less so when you were in-house?

Henry: Less so in-house. And people work late hours for all sorts of reasons because there's a lot of work to do, maybe they're avoiding something in their own lives, maybe they actually really do like working. And again, that's completely fine. We shouldn't shame people for wanting to work. 

But when that's at the detriment of your health, when you're not being valued by that organization that you're giving it all to… And again, people have different sort of ways that they measure their value. I think for me, I, particularly as I grew older, what I valued kind of changed. I didn't want to be this huge hot shot lawyer that's earning X amount of money and giving up everything else. It just wasn't a life that I wanted to live. 

So who knows, I may go back full time into the legal profession at some point, but at the moment, I'm really enjoying the way that I get to work. To be able to do like public speaking events around this, to share experiences, to talk to people like you, to create content and create community. And I love the, like, legal-slash-corporate creator community that we're all part of. 

Josey: Yeah, it's really cool. 

Kate: Absolutely.

Josey: I feel similarly. I mean, when I started working in law, working long hours, it wasn't as much of a deterrent for me and it didn't feel as kind of oppressive at the time. And when I got a bit further on, I was getting a little bit older. I was like, man, I'm not seeing my family. I'm not seeing my friends. I'm not really living. You know, my health even, you know, because I'm not taking time to exercise or maybe I'm not, you know, eating as healthy, things like that… It wasn't a lifestyle that I wanted anymore at that point. But similarly, I think about, you know, I may go back to law at some point, I may go a different direction with it. You never know. 

The career that I've been able to create, especially because of this community, has enabled me to like regain some balance and to actually, you know, do things like this where I get to laugh for half an hour in the morning and not worry that it's taking time from work, you know?

Kate: Yeah. I feel like I've gotten so much more flexible in how I think about my future at this point now that I'm older. I used to just be like…always had a North star, I had a goal, this is what I'm gonna be doing, this is where I'm going with my life. And the number of times that that's changed for me I think has helped me become a lot more flexible.

Josey: Right?

Kate: I feel so much better now- But now I'm trying to, you know, I quit my job as well. And now I'm sort of starting to dip my toe back into talking to people about working again. And people will be like, “Well, what do you wanna do?” And I'm like, “I don't know.”

I do in a, to a degree I'm like, yeah, I think I want to stay in marketing. I'd love to stay in the legal space, the legal tech space, because I really like the community that I've come to know there. But I'm like, I don't know. I don't know where I want to work. I don't know exactly what that looks like for me, which is exciting. But at this point now it's starting to be a little bit of a hindrance (Kate and Josey laugh) because I don't know what to say to people when they ask me what I want to do.

(Henry laughs)

Henry: I feel exactly the same, and I was gonna ask you guys: Do you find, because I do, that having a degree of flexibility of your working day and how and when you work is great but it's also so scary? I feel like I got used to having like a regimented structure so I knew what I was doing when. But now when I have a level of flexibility, I feel like I'm lazy.

Like this morning, I went out for coffee and went to the gym. And then I was back here for sort of 11am. Just taking that time out, I feel better. But then I'm also thinking, “Oh, I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this.”

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Henry: And then I'll work later. But then realistically, I'm trying to say… Or have more healthy boundaries and say, “What's actually urgent today?” And just because I'm not working every minute of every day doesn't necessarily mean I'm not being productive. 

Kate: Yeah.

Henry: It's just a different kind of productivity, and taking that rest and actually prioritizing yourself so you can be more creative or whatever it is that you do.

Josey: I have that for sure.

Kate: It’s a tough mental space to get out of. You have those hours at least, and then when you cut yourself off, you're like, “Well, I'm not being lazy because I'm not working outside of work hours.” But when you have this flexibility in your work hours are kind of whenever, it's a lot easier to guilt yourself when you're taking those moments, I think. 

Henry: Yeah.

Kate: I don't know the answer to it because I definitely still do it.

Josey: I'm the worst offender of that. Yeah, no. I always say that nobody, not even a manager if I wasn't doing my job properly, could guilt me as much as I guilt myself over my productivity.

Kate: Oh yeah. 

Josey: And I'm very fortunate now that I work for a company where I have flexibility and they do support me, you know, taking time to go to a doctor's appointment or to do a vacation or to do, you know, normal things, healthy boundary things that you're supposed to do with work. They’re wonderful about that, but I feel guilty every time that I take it, or at the thought of taking it. Or if my hours have ended and I see an email come in…

Henry: Yeah.

Josey: I'm like, “Oh, I should answer this.” My mind has a really hard time disconnecting, especially because I do work at home, so it's all right here all the time.

Kate: Uh huh.

Henry: Yeah.

Josey: It's hard for me to rationalize not working when I'm like, “But I'm already home and it's, you know, I'm sitting on the couch anyway, I might as well answer this email.” 

Kate: No, and I don't know if either of you do this, but like, if you have anxiety, (laughing) which given our 90,000 mentions of Xanax, I think it's safe to say we all…

(All laugh)

Josey: We're not all abusing Xanax. I think that’d be something to put out there.

Kate: No, we are not.

Henry: Get a sponsorship deal with them.

Kate: But for me, sometimes, I'll be like, “Okay, but if I just answer that email that came in after hours, my anxiety will be less because it's not on my mind anymore.” But I have trouble balancing when that's actually the case and when… Snd I feel like I'm just feeding into the cycle more by doing that. And so I don't know if either of you has a good method or strategy for dealing with that, but I have that issue.

Henry: No, I'm exactly the same.

Josey: I have that problem and now I... 

(She trails off with laughter.)

Henry: Come on, Josey, you can do it!

(Kate and Henry laugh)

Josey: I’m really trying here to not look at you guys while I say this. 

I will answer and just say something along the lines of, “Just want you to know I saw this email, I'm on it in the morning.”

Kate: That’s smart.

Henry: Yeah.

Josey: That has been what I've started to do. I hope at some point there will be times where I don't even feel like that's necessary anymore for my anxiety to kind of be reduced. Because they know I'm gonna answer in the morning. It's me. 

Henry: It’s for you.

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: I'm the one now that feels like the anxiety around it. And so just sending one sentence, and then my anxiety will stop. And so some of my friends are still like, “Josey, you’re still answering emails, it’s still something that’s in those after hours of your life.” And that’s true. But it's gotten better. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: I've gotten into the mindset of, if there's a small change that you can make that moves you in the direction that you wanna go, to having better boundaries and balance in your life, then that's a huge win. You know, that's a win. To be able to do a little thing to get you a little closer is awesome.

Henry: Yes. It comes back to that point around people saying, “Oh, you only grow outside of your comfort zone.” Just sending that email, Josey, for you is something that probably makes you feel uncomfortable because you're not dealing with the substance of the email straight away. But the more you do that, the more comfortable you'll get doing it. And then the next step after that will be to set up an auto response or to then not respond. And that's sort of that level of growth. 

There are always going to be days that are rubbish. But it's how we respond to that. What are our coping mechanisms for these difficult situations? Because I know I'm so much more aware now of sort of behaviors that I start to do, actions that I start to take when I don't feel great. And even for me being aware of that, it's such a step in the right direction in that… Okay, like I've ate a box of cakes today, that's not good. And I know that's when I'm not feeling great. 

(Henry and Kate laugh) 

But when I start like going to the supermarket and buying it, I'm like, okay, cool. You're stressed. You're anxious. You're worried about something. What is it? What can we do to counteract this? Do we need to go for a run, gym, walk? And then you kind of bring yourself back from those sort of unhealthy behaviors that I recognize that I do in stressful situations.

Josey: I would like to say I feel personally attacked right now. (Kate laughs loudly. Josey laughs) Because last night I was literally in this seat with a box of cake, eating it like a whole cake with a fork.

Henry: But you know, sometimes we need to do that!

Kate: Sometimes, it's true. Just- And know your own habits. 

Henry: Yeah.

Kate: But I think that is a huge thing. It's like, I, cause I've burned out twice now for like two completely different reasons. And the second time I didn't recognize it because it didn't feel like the first time. I mean, it did in a lot of ways…

Henry: How did you know that you'd burnt out?

Kate: (Laughing) Which time? (Josey laughs) Well the…

Henry: Start with the first.

(Henry laughs)

Kate: The first time, I was still able to enjoy things, it was just that work was permeating everything that I was thinking about. So that was when I was burned out by the work itself. And I just couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't turn it off. It's hard not to think about your clients all the time because you're just constantly worried for them. Sometimes they would fall out of touch for like a couple of weeks and you would just be worried. You didn't know what happened to them. And I just was anxious constantly. I wasn't sleeping well. That was really extreme burnout, I would say. 

And then the last time it was more what you were talking about, where it was like, I was also content creating and suddenly everything was giving me anxiety. And I was just not feeling like I was doing anything 100%. And that was my main symptom this last time was just kind of the not being able to enjoy stuff because thinking about doing anything was making me anxious. And finally I was able to kind of trace it back to the fact that I was burned out, but it took me a minute. 

How about you, Henry? What were your symptoms besides eating entire… boxes of cakes?

Henry: (Laughing) Yeah, I think for me it was just around the point of… I was doing things for the sake of doing them, not because I was excited by doing them. Content creation was always fun for me and I've never wanted to make it a full-time job because I don't want it to not be fun. And as soon as I started getting like tired by it and not wanting to do anything else and not wanting really to go out and see people... That's the content side of things. 

And then in sort of the legal profession, I think for me it was… I remember this day so well, like waking up and I couldn't physically move. 

Kate: Oh my god.

Henry: I got called to say, “Oh, like, Henry, you're gonna be late for work.” I was like, oh, like shit, oops. And then I just had to kind of put on a face and like carry on as if everything was fine. Having like really sad thoughts like an hour ago and now I'm eating my cereal. I'm about to make my way into the office where I’ll no doubt throw up and be anxious all day. 

And then- I don't think I've ever said this before- but then on that Sunday, my sister and her partner were like, “Oh, you can take,” their child, my niece, “for a walk with your friendst.” And I didn't realize until I was on that walk how much I needed just to be outside and just to see the joy on this one, two-year-old's face, just running around playing with dogs, splashing in the water. I don't want to say that saved me, but that had such a positive impact on how I felt. Everything that was making me sad and upset and unhappy was within my control to change. 

Kate: Mm.

Henry: I got back and I'm like, do you know what, I'm leaving that job. I'm with my parents and the risk is relatively low. But, issue, spanner in the old works, was the government here then announced that day or the day after that we're about to go into a nationwide lockdown. So my parents are like, “Well, you probably don't wanna quit your job just yet.” But I was removed from that situation because we then had to work from home. 

Kate: Yeah.

Henry: So instantly I felt relief that I didn't have to go in and be in an environment that was making me feel so worn down. And as awful as this sounds, that as the pandemic progressed and they were talked about opening up society again… This sounds awful, but I always kind of wanted it to go in the opposite direction because I didn't want to go back to the office. I wanted to stay home where I was safe. 

Kate: Yeah.

Henry: And if I had a horrible encounter with that specific boss, when I had a call with them, I could just slam the laptop down. And I was like, cool, I'm in a safe space. This is fine. I'll go and have like a cup of tea or whatever with my parents. And ultimately I then left that job, because it wasn't healthy for me. It was impacting so many other aspects of my life. But again, I thought it was just me that felt like that until I started doing this and talking to people like you guys and other people within the legal community.

Kate: Wow, and that's so lonely. To think about how extreme your symptoms were, the fact that you were like throwing up and crying in the bathroom at work… To then be like, “Oh, but it's just me”? That has to be so lonely.

Henry: And then walking back up to your desk and sitting next to the person who made you feel like that. And you're like, I need a mint because I've got sick breath. 

(Henry laugh.)

Kate: Ugh. That makes me so sad.

Josey: Yeah. I had the same feelings about the pandemic, to be honest, because I had joined a job and I was on a hybrid schedule. So I only had to be in a couple days a week, I think, at that point. And the couple days were really, really difficult for me. But most of the time I could be home, which felt safe. 

And when it was announced that numbers are dropping, we're gonna go back into the office. I was hysterical. I just had like a full like breakdown type of moment, which I don't have. I'm generally a pretty like…

(Josey laughs)

Kate: Even-keeled?

(Kate laughs)

Josey: Yeah, even-keeled person. And so I was freaking out, which is not like me. And as soon as I was like uncontrollable at that moment, I was like, “This is not the person that I am. This is not who I want to be.”

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: I don't even know how to help myself because I don't know this version of myself. 

Kate: Oh my god, that is such a… Ugh, yeah. 

Josey: Yeah, it was just, I didn't even know what to do for me because this wasn't me. That's when I was like, I need to look for a new job. And at this point, I don't… It's not that I didn't care what I did next, but I was in a position where I was like, I need to leave as quickly as possible and in the best way that I can. To feel like you want a pandemic to continue because of seeing, having to see one person… That is, to me, that's like, that's very wrong. 

Henry: Yeah.

Kate: Was that like your moment where you like realized it wasn't you? Because that's what I want to know from both of you. Because I feel like toxic management is so tough. When I burned out because of work, I was like, “Oh yeah, it's the job. I can tell that it is the job. That is what I am stressed is- the work that I am doing stresses me out.” So how did you find that moment where you were like, “It's not me, it's you.” 

Josey: Oh, I don't think I've totally found that moment, to be honest. (Kate laughs) I mean, I had it enough to like leave. There's still those, you know, those voices in your head sometimes where it's like, “Was I just overreacting?” Or, “Was it just I couldn't handle that and other people could?”

Henry: Yeah. Same.

Josey: I still have those voices. So I don't think that I've totally accepted that I didn't have a part in that. 

Henry: Yeah, I completely agree that I still get like thoughts that actually maybe I'm, maybe I was just a wimp. Maybe actually I shouldn't have said anything or maybe I… it was all me. But to get to the point where I physically was throwing up in an office, I would cry in an office. Couldn't move from bed because I was on that one day in such a low space. That's not all just through my own thoughts. 

Because we put so much pressure on ourselves to perform in this profession, I think I was just carrying this sort of bravaderie for such a long time like, “I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. Oh, it's not that big a deal. I’ll just read my Kindle in the morning and go for a walk and I'll be fine as I walk into the office.” When actually it was the environment that I was in that wasn't right for me, which in turn meant I wasn't performing my best. And that environment was never going to get the best out of me.

At the time I didn't know anything about workplace wellbeing. I just thought this was it. This is life. This is what being a qualified lawyer is like. But one of my friends was like, you should probably tell HR. So I did. And then I told HR, I went and sat back at my desk and the partner sits next to me, and then I saw that HR like person's name light up on their phone, obviously called them to then call them in for a chat about me. 

Kate: That’s so tense.

Josey: I’d sprint out of the building.

Henry: I wanted to die. My heart is racing. I'm just, get me out of here. I don't feel comfortable. I didn't want to seem like I was complaining. I’d kind of internalized that I'm the problem, I'll be perceived as a wimp, I won't get given good work. I'd just be told to get a grip, man up, sort myself out. Like everyone else is fine. Why is it you? 

And then I kind of took that on. Like if everyone else is doing so fine, why am I struggling? Until just over a year later, I started making content and realized actually, we're all just kind of getting through it and not speaking about it. Now I think particularly guys need to be more open, and actually process some of the difficulties that we do face because we all face them. 

We don't have to be like telling our like coworkers, “Oh, this happened the other day,” like, tell them everything if we don't feel comfortable. But there should be somebody within the organization that you feel comfortable enough to say, “I'm not in a great place right now.” And the employer should trust you, the employee, enough to know that you would only sort of say something, if you asked for that mental health day or whatever, when you are actually at the verge of like breakdown… Not breakdown, sorry.

Kate: I was going to say, don't wait until you're on the verge of breakdown to ask for a mental health day.

(Kate and Henry laugh)

Henry: Yeah, because at that point it's too late.

Josey: Learn from my mistakes, folks. Yeah.

Kate: Yes, do as I say, not as I do, children. 

Henry: You should respect an employee enough. We all worked so hard to qualify to become lawyers or even join the legal profession in whatever capacity. We're not just going to throw that away because actually I want to watch a TV show on Netflix. No, I'm not work-shy, we're not work-shy, we're not lazy. And you cannot perform at your best if you don't prioritize yourself and your wellbeing. 

Kate: Yeah. And it's interesting to me because I feel like both men and women sort of have that same thing where you're like, “I don't want to be seen as complaining. I don't want to be seen as overly-sensitive,” what have you. But it's for different reasons. 

Henry: Yes.

Kate: For women, it's like if we're seen complaining, we're going to get told, “It's because you're a woman.”

Josey: Mmhmm.

Kate: “You can't cut it. That's because you're a woman.”

Henry: Yes.

Kate: “Women can't cut it as a gender.” 

Josey: Yeah.

Henry: Yes.

Kate: For men, it's that thing of like, “Well, you're a guy. Why are you so sensitive?”

Henry: Yeah.

Kate: And it's toxic both ways.

Henry: Exactly that. Obviously I can't speak on behalf of women's experiences, but it's completely like… I watched the Barbie film yesterday, and that does touch on–

Kate: Now you are authorized to speak on the behalf of women. You've seen Barbie. 

(Henry laughs)

Josey: Exactly. 

Kate: A friend to all women.

Henry: The film does touch on that point that if you're sort of assertive and kind of put yourself forward, you don't want to be too assertive because then you're told you're bossy. Or if you're sort of emotional, you don't want to be too emotional because then you're perceived as hormonal.

Josey: Mm-hmm.

Henry: Similar experiences that we go through in terms of burnout and tiredness with work, but just how it's then perceived by the organization.

Kate: Yeah.

Henry: They both have different detriments to kind of your career and your progress.

Josey: Yeah.

I think they feed into each other. So much weight is put on a man to provide, to be stable, to be seen as a strong, stable figure. Even if you don't have a family you're providing for at that moment, it's the idea that you are supposed to at some point and you need to be preparing yourself to be that stable provider. 

Henry: Yeah.

Josey: And for women, it’s… I know for me, I've always felt like I need- I can never admit weakness because if I do, I will lose an opportunity because I will be seen as not capable. But it feeds into each other. 

Kate: It all stems from that same place, which is that the feminine is weakness. And so if you are weak as a woma- “Weak,” quote unquote, emotional, whatever it is that’s being branded as “weak”- as a woman, that is typical of you because you are a woman. And if you show those same qualities as a man, you are being like a woman and that is bad.

Josey: Exactly.

Henry: And that's instilled in guys kind of as children and as we grow up. “You will be tough.” And if you show any feminine traits, which could just be simply crying or showing emotion that we all do because we are emotional beings, but if you show any of that, you're not gonna be taken as seriously because, oh, the crybaby's here, oh, the sensitive one's here. 

When actually, those traits are great traits to have as a leader in any capacity. To show empathy, to understand how somebody else is feeling, to be able to include them and relate to them, is going to get you so much further than just screaming and shouting and ultimately burning yourself out.

Josey: And we all have feminine and masculine energy. 

Henry: Hundred percent.

Kate: Yes.

Josey: We're taught to deny the feminine part because the feminine part won't get you far in a career.

Henry: Yes.

Kate: Yeah. And for women, it's like, you have to embrace it as much as you can and also deny it as much as- You have to know which situations it's appropriate to be, you know…

Josey: Mmhmm. Yeah. “Well, I need to, you know, play into the feminine so that I don't emasculate someone or threaten them.”

Kate: Yeah, “Which woman do I have to be for this person?”

Henry: Yeah. To also carry that on top of sort of other work pressures, on top of life pressures, it's draining. 

Josey: Yeah. And Henry, with the toxic masculinity, what are some of the ways that you kind of helped yourself as someone that was influenced by this society that told you need to be this, and this, and trying to let go of some of those things?

Henry: I think the biggest step for me was finally just admitting that how I'm feeling. Telling a mate, “By the way, I've just like thrown up in the bathroom. I probably need help.” And then as soon as I told somebody, and we just started chatting. And as I was talking to them, I was telling them more and more and realizing actually, the environment that I was in wasn't healthy. 

I had my parents around. They could watch me work and actually see like what I did and some of the stuff that I'd spoke about that I'd gone through. And that was in itself validating. I was kind of forced to prioritize a lot of these things. I had a lot of time to think by myself. And whether or not I would have come to these same conclusions had there not been a pandemic… I probably would have, but I think it may have taken longer. 

I'm so thankful that I've since had the opportunity to turn that into something positive. To be able to kind of talk about these things, I like to think that i've had some kind of positive impact on at least one person.

Kate: I'm positive that you have. I love that the point of just finally talking to someone, because people who go into the legal profession are often pretty independent, self-sufficient. You have to be able to like study and manage your time and do all that stuff to get through it, to get into it. 

Henry: Yep.

Kate: And you can gaslight yourself very, very easily, especially when it's toxic management and they are gaslighting you already. 

Henry: Yes.

Kate: Just having an outside party to say, “No, that's messed up. This should not be happening to you. Go see HR,” can just make all the difference. 

Josey: Yeah.

Henry: Yes. And I think you're completely right. This is something that my therapist mentioned the other day was that I try and rationalize everything. Maybe we're conditioned in that way because we're lawyers, maybe it's part of our personalities.

Kate: Seeing both sides.

Henry: Yeah, we can like balance an argument.

Kate: That's what my therapist called me out on. She would be like asking me how something made me feel that somebody else did to me and I would start defending the other person.

Henry: Yeah!

Kate: She was like, “Why are you defending the person? Why are you qualifying it? Just tell me how you feel about it.” 

Henry: I only recently started therapy.

Kate: Yay!

Henry: Probably should have done it a few years ago, but alas.

Kate: Better late than never.

Henry: It was something that I wasn't going to share. But because I talk about wellbeing, particularly for guys, I kind of wanted to share the fact that I've started seeing a therapist. I think for a lot of people, they see therapy as you only go if you have a problem. But it could be something as simple as, question why you do certain things and how you feel when you do a certain thing or someone says a specific word–

Kate: Yes! 

Henry: -- or a certain action happens towards you. So now I'm more mindful of it.

And I think being on social media, as great as it is, also can have negative impacts. And we know it does in terms of needing that dopamine hit, and needing validation from strangers on the internet, or being affected by negative comments. Trying to put in healthy boundaries around that is easier said than done.

And then the comparison culture and everything. Before sort of doing stuff like, I was obviously conscious about how I looked, but I wasn't as conscious of it. And I think guys necessarily don't speak about that. Seeing other creators and influencers look a certain way, and you're like “Oh, maybe if I look like that, this would happen for me.” 

I would be interested to hear how you guys kind of navigate that sort of space.

Kate: It's tough to look at your own face all day.

Josey: I think this is actually the most uncomfortable part of starting this podcast is being recorded and having my face out there. Being in front of a camera is not comfortable. I say “like” too much, or I'm not looking at the camera enough, things like that, it does get to you. And that's why I've tried, I think for me, to stay away from doing too much on the internet.

Kate: I was like, (Laughing) “I'm a woman in my mid-thirties getting on TikTok.” I had a ton of insecurity around it. If I'm like, “Oh, I look- my arm looks too fat in that take,” I'm gonna do it again three more times and hold my arm at a completely different spot. And then you're like… It's more and more things to be aware of that can make you screw up. And it really doesn’t help (Laughing) the content creation process at all, so…

Henry: (Laughing) Yeah.

Kate: Doing this is a good way to get out of it because I’m like, “We’ve recorded, it’s a one-shot.” If I don’t like my face, but the guest is- it's a clip where the guest is saying something amazing? Too fucking bad, my stupid face is going out there, because what the person has to say is more valuable and it doesn't matter. So it's kind of been very helpful to me.

But I've been fortunate in… so far, knock on wood. If I get any bigger than I am right now, I don't know what the reactions will be like. But so far I haven't, I don't think gotten any comments about my appearance.

Josey: Me either.

Henry: That's good.

Kate: I'm sure they'll come. 

Henry: I’ll send some of my, like, commenters your way.

Josey: There we go.

Kate: Yeah, please do. We can start sending them to us and we'll jump in. We'll come defend you because it's bullshit. But yeah, I know. And it's tough. And it's, like you said, it's comparison culture, which, again, law really lends itself to. 

Josey: Yeah.

Henry: Yeah, it’s hard. And I just worry more for like future generations coming up, like Gen Alpha, who are going to be born with iPads in their hands, and…

Kate: Completely exposed.

Henry: Yeah.

Josey: I hate it. I look at my niece and nephew all the time and I'm like, “You are never to be on the internet.” Because I swear to God, the first time someone says something mean to them… I see red. Yeah, social media makes me nervous for my niece and nephews.

Kate: I have mixed feelings about it. I think there are a lot of positives that can come from it. Like relating to other people, like hearing that you're not alone in a lot of ways.

Henry: Yeah, like this.

Kate: I sometimes think like, maybe it would have been helpful when I was a teen, but then I'm like, but I would have been putting myself out there. I would have been miserable with the feedback I was getting. Like…

Henry: Yeah.

Kate: I think that there are… There are two sides of it. We'll see how they do. They'll be okay. They'll be okay, I have faith in them.

Josey: I have two minutes, I’m sorry.

Kate: Yeah. Yep. Nope. That's fine. This is definitely the longest that we've recorded with someone. 

Josey: Ever?

Kate: Rhia we recorded two- two hours, 15 minutes. She, she came close, but, um…

Henry: Okay, she was almost… 

Kate: So much fun.

Josey: It really has been so nice to talk to you and get to know you.

Henry: Yeah, likewise. This was fun. 

Josey: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Content, don’t know. But fun? It was all there. 

Kate: If nothing else, we had fun and that's all that- that's what we're doing this for, right?

Henry: (Laughing) Yeah.

Josey: Exactly. 

Henry: This can be an internal episode.

Outtro

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.