Liz Gil: I've been riding since I was a little kid. So…

Kate Bridal: I took lessons when I was like in fifth grade for a while, and I really loved it. My husband always teases me about being a horse girl, but-

(Kate and Liz laugh.)

Josey Hoff: Oh my god, I was too! I did 4-H. I don't know if either of you-

Kate: Oh, yeah! I grew up in the country. 

Liz: What is that?

Josey: Oh, you did it? Oh, wow.

Kate: I didn't do it! I didn't do it, but I know what 4-H is.

Josey: All right, calm down.

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

Josey: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it.

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to The Legal Burnouts.

Episode 4

Kate: Honey, honey? 

Josey: Yes, darling? 

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

Josey: Sure.

Kate: You're like, “Meh, I guess. I guess we'll do it.”

(Kate laughs)

Josey: I feel like if I were enthusiastic, I- it won't seem like myself. 

Kate: That's true. It's disingenuous.

Well, welcome everyone to another episode of The Legal Burnouts. Today, we are very lucky to be joined by the fantastic Liz Gil. Liz has been a passionate advocate for changes to the bar exam for quite a while now. You may know her on social media as licensetogil on Instagram, which is just fantastic handle, or on Twitter as lizcgill.

Liz, thank you so much for being here today!

Liz: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

Kate: Oh, thank you. 

Josey: It's our honor, really. 

Kate: It is. 

Liz: It's my first ever podcast. 

Kate: Oh, my gosh! You won't be our first guest in ord- like, by the time people listen to this, we'll have had other guests, because of the order we're putting these in. But you are our first guest that we're recording with, and so we're very excited. 

Liz: Amazing. Yeah. I'm excited too.

Kate: Yeah. You're our guinea pig. 

Liz: Yeah, I was about to say, “I'm glad to be the guinea pig.”

Josey: Lucky you.

Kate: We're all learning together. And this may just turn out horribly. No. I have faith in us.

Josey: I do too. 

Kate: So, Liz, would love to hear a little bit about you, your background, and how you kind of got into bar exam advocacy, ‘cause we're planning to release this episode the week of the bar exam. I don't know if anyone who's actually taking the bar exam is gonna wanna listen to it, ‘cause I know when I was taking the bar I didn't wanna hear anybody talk about the bar exam in any context, but maybe down the line they'll be ready.

Liz: Yeah. 

Kate: So would love to hear a little bit about your story. 

Liz: For sure. I mean, yeah, in my dream world, like, this podcast would be getting released, you know, during a time when the bar exam was completely abolished, and we wouldn't have to deal with that anymore. But that's that's unfortunately not the world we live in, so. 

Josey: That’ll be the day. 

Kate: No.

Liz: I got into bar exam advocacy kind of completely by accident based on the nature of 2020. I mean, going into the pandemic, we expected- at least, like, maybe I was naive, but I was expecting the, quote, unquote, “pandemic” to be, you know, a week or something like that, and then we'd all go back to normal.

And as things got increasingly dire, and it became clear that we were not going to be living life the way that we did before, I think I- I, again, possibly naive, assumed that the normal cycle of the bar exam would change the same way. I figured that it would be a situation where we would, you know, automatically go remote or if that wasn't doable as people were claiming at the time, then there would be some other option.

I wanna shout out the incredible professors who kind of took the lead in the advocacy and- in March 2020. I remember Marsha Griggs being one of them. She published an incredible paper that kind of laid out very- in a lot of detail, kind of the options for licensure available. And it made a lot of sense.

The grads of 2020 were all people who, you know, went into this profession expecting to take the bar exam. So it wasn't like we were like, “Oh, great. A global health crisis. Let's skip the bar exam.” (Kate laughs) We- we just wanted to become lawyers. Right? 

Kate: Yeah.

Liz: And so we we were like, “Okay, great. There are other options people are talking about them, they're on the table, etcetera.”

And then, really, it was the the incredible pushback, kind of the breathtaking pushback that we received when other options beyond taking the bar exam in its normal fashion were suggested, that got me into the advocacy that I started doing. And, you know, I- I wanna give credit to the incredible people who were there before me, not just the professors, but the actual grassroots advocates who started this- this movement. I mean, kind of seeing them advocating made me feel like there were people kind of paving the way for this advocacy, and I just genuinely, I followed. Like, I was not the- I was not the start of this at all.

But it definitely- Seeing the pushback had me doubling down quite a quite a bit and that's why that's honestly why I- I still have kept going with it, just even after the fact.

Kate: Yeah. And- and was this just in New York? Was this in a certain state that you were doing advocacy or did you start advocating elsewhere as well?

Liz: So I personally was working with the group that was advocating in New York, since every jurisdiction is different. I remember talking to people in various jurisdictions stiction saying, you know… It was honestly very hard to figure out who was in charge of licensure because that was not something that was really talked about or handled. And so it wasn't until- at least in New York- it wasn't until we had a letter from the Court of Appeals that said, you know, we're going to go forward with the bar exam, that I was like, “Okay, so the- the buck stops with the Court of Appeals.” I was working in kind of that nuclear group of New York people.

At the same time, I was also kind of getting in touch with people in other jurisdictions and working with them as possible. 

Kate: That makes sense. I mean, obviously, this was the result of- The pandemic was when you got into bar exam advocacy, but there's been a lot of advocacy to change things about the bar exam. So what were kind of the fundamental things that you were seeing that you just thought, “This doesn't need to be this way.”

Liz: I'm embarrassed to say that pre-pandemic, I really didn't I didn't have a touch point to the various inequities around the bar exam. Kind of to the main point of this podcast of burnout, you know, a lot of us graduate law school already kind of burnt out after that experience and just kind of keep our heads down and are like, “Alright, let's just get through this hurdle and just not question it.” 

And so I think until I was seeing situations where bar examiners were just kind of like, “Alright, you know, you have a disability. Well, that's just too bad.” You know, “You're gonna have to go test in person,” or “You're gonna have to deal with a remote bar exam where you're not allowed bathroom breaks, and so you need to literally urinate on camera.”

Kate: Oh my god. 

Josey: What?

Liz: That was actually something that happened. Like-

Kate: Really?

Liz: Oh, yeah. 

Josey: Oh my god. 

Liz: Yeah. People were doing that. Using either water bottles or using diapers, things like that. Like-

Josey: What?!

Liz:  That was a that was kind of just like such a next level thing where I- I couldn't let that go. And that is when I kind of started peeling back the onion of how long this inequity has existed, what it was based off of, kind of the the- the ethos behind creating the bar exam, which was all based on exclusion. 

Kate: Mhmm.

Liz: That has made me look back and say, “Oh my god. I can't believe I didn't focus on this earlier.”

Kate: Yeah, racism, ableism, and elitism, the three great pillars of the American legal system.

Liz: Yep. 

Josey: It's so interesting because I took the LSAT during the pandemic, and it was remote as well, and it was the same thing, there was no break. It was you have to sit for this amount of time regardless if you need a drink or to go to the bathroom or whatever it was, that wasn't an option. Doesn't matter. This is how it is. 

Kate: Put your head down and deal with it, which is the--

Josey: Exactly.

Kate:  --feedback you get a lot in the legal industry, is you just- “It's hard. It's supposed to be hard.” That's, you know, what makes lawyers so special or whatever, it makes us feel like we're so- We overcome so much or whatever it is, you know. 

Liz: Overcome so much that we put on ourselves. I mean, the system is designed to be a hazing ritual, and then what? We pat ourselves on the back and recreate it?

Josey: I don't wanna make any broad sweeping statements, but I do think that people that go into the legal industry probably already have this… They get a lot of external validation from, you know, working hard or being intelligent or putting your head down and just doing it. 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: And so it really does attract a certain type of person and that only exacerbate those qualities in us.

Kate: Absolutely. And everything in the law is built to make you seek more of that validation. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: And even like the structure of law school, everything is graded on a curve and so it fosters that competitive edge and having to try and beat out your peers instead of having it just be a normal grading system where it's like you're gonna get the grade you're gonna get and your peers’ performance doesn't affect it.

Liz: Yeah. No. It it's it's definitely designed that way, and it's particularly painful when it's people that then you are told are your colleagues, right? I mean, there's all of this collegial language that's prevalent in this profession. My theory at least is that there might be less burnout if simply we were honest about the nature of the competitiveness, about kind of the fact that the bar exam is a hazing ritual, and people are becoming obviously more and more open about that, and there's more and more dialogue about it.

But when you think about the people who are actually running it… I mean, the bar examiners and the, you know, bar associations that we reached out to for help during- during Barpocalypse is what they call it. (Josey laughs.) They spent all of this time saying, “Our future colleagues,” you know, “You're so important to us,” you know, “We can't wait for you to join us in this profession!” You then turn around and you see this condescension and this honestly, like, it felt like hatred sometimes of us, of- of new people coming into this profession. You wind up with this cognitive dissonance of, do you really want me here?

And, like, coming from me as a straight, cis, white woman, I can only imagine how it is for- for people who are not in my position who are kind of fed this rhetoric of diversity and inclusion, and then at every turn, you know… And just thinking back to Barpocalypse, I mean, the fact that we even used technology that was known to be racially biased. Imagine then going into your law firm job and having the law firm be like, “We are committed to, you know, diversity!” (Kate and Josey laugh) And yet they didn't say anything about how the barrier to entry to the legal profession was inherently racially biased. 

Kate: Yes.

Liz: I think that honestly that contributes to the burnout. It's not just the hazing, it's the fact that we are dishonest about it, and why I so appreciate forums like this, where we can talk about it openly. And I think that's why- honestly why I gravitated towards Twitter. People are so candid there for for better or for worse. 

(All laugh)

Kate: Yeah.

Liz: That I felt like there was there was a real conversation happening there that frankly doesn't happen in law school forums because people are so worried about putting on the professional face of being whatever it is that our profession demands of us. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: The lack of- of lawyers addressing what associates have just had to endure with the bar exam: Do you think it's intentional that they're thinking about it, or is it just… I feel like oftentimes everyone's taken the bar just wants to never think about it again to some degree (Kate laughs) because it was so traumatizing they’re just like, “It's done. I'm never gonna think about that test ever again.”

Liz: Yeah. I mean, obviously as a lawyer, I'm like, “I can't speculate on intent,” right? (Kate and Josey laugh) But I do- I do think it varies. I mean, it depends on how plugged in you were to the conversation. I completely understand that there was a lot more going on than just the bar exam -- 

Kate: Yeah. 

Liz: -- during the pandemic. You know, like, I get that people were struggling. I get that licensed attorneys a lot of other things on their plate. That being said, the choices were affirmatively made. 

Josey: Mhmm. 

Liz: Right? Like the- the choices that we continue to complain about were affirmatively made. There- those could have been different choices. However, I don't wanna just jump to the conclusion that associates term that comes to mind is like “garden variety associate” (all laugh) at- at a firm, you know, like, is like, “Yes, I'm glad that this happened to the class of 2020 and beyond.”

Kate: Right.

Liz: However, based on the interactions that I got on Twitter during like the height of our advocacy in 2020, you know, there is a solid contingent of people in this profession who are just like, “I had to go through it and too bad.”

Josey: Yeah. 

Liz: No matter what the difference in context. Clearly, there's a massive difference between taking the bar exam under a normal circumstance and taking the bar exam when the world is pretty much on fire with a horrible pandemic. 

Josey: Mmhmm.

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: But there were a lot of people who had taken the bar exam before who just were completely… That- that was just not registering for them.

They were just like, “The idea of a class being able to skip the bar exam is so enraging to me just as a concept. That I don't wanna think about why that would be necessary.”

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Yeah.

Liz: “I don't wanna- I don't wanna unpack that. I don't wanna- I don't wanna touch it. That just is so enraging as a baseline that I'm just not gonna cross that threshold.”

And that's honestly why I think a lot of the conversations didn't get further, the necessary conversations that we were trying to start that frequently couldn't be had.

Kate: And I feel like that just speaks to that- the anxiety that comes with the bar exam, the stress that you get from the bar exam and how uniquely stressful it is as an exam, that people are so affected by it that they are reacting to other people not having to do it in that way. I hate that attitude always that it was bad for me, so it needs to continue to be bad for everyone else. I don't know where that comes from, but you see it in lots of different places. I just am like, Why? Why don't you want it to be better for other people?

Liz: Yeah. You know, “These entitled millennials, these entitled Gen Zers.” It's like, no. I mean, I'm sorry, technology will continue to evolve.

Kate: Yeah.

Liz: Is that something that you're gonna just resent about future generations? And if so, are they really your colleagues? Like, it's just, again, this kind of cognitive dissonance. It's like this- this incredible bitterness that boils beneath this veneer of collegiality.

Kate: The funny thing is too, it's not even just the people who have already taken the bar exam. So I took the bar in California the year that the exam topics got leaked. 

Liz: Oh yeah! I forgot that happened.

Kate: Yeah. So it was like a few days before, they found out that the bar topics for the exam questions had been sent out. And normally, you know, for those who don't know, they keep the topics of the essay questions on the bar exam a secret because part of the test is issue spotting. You have to look at the question and say, “Okay, this is constitutional law, this is Crim Pro,” whatever it is. 

So the exam topics got leaked. They told us all of couple of days before, and a bunch of people who were scheduled to take the bar exam wanted to pull out and postpone because they said it's- “This is gonna have an asterisk on your resume forever. The fact that you took the 2019 bar exam in California will taint your entire reputation.” And I was like…

Josey: What?

Kate: “Take your fucking mulligan, dude. It's the California bar.” (Liz laughs.) And- and also, it's a few days beforehand. If you don't already know contract law, you're not learning contract law in a few days. I will say it helped. I tossed out some topics that I knew I wasn't gonna have to look at and I- it helped me narrow my study, but not to a degree where I think it made the difference between me passing and failing. 

Josey: That's absurd.

Liz: Ugh, gross. (Kate laughs.0 Those are the kinds of people who like help perpetuate this kind of energy. The-

Kate: A hundred percent.

Liz: Those are the types of people who will look back and be like, “We have to make sure that the bar exam remains as strenuous and horrible for other people as it was for us,” because otherwise whatever asterisk they're talking about will, you know, exist in perpetuity. That's crazy. 

Kate: As though the bar exam is even a good measure of what kind of lawyer you'll be.

Liz: Oh, all of the really compelling arguments about why the bar exam doesn’t measure competence have been aired time and time again in whatever publication, whatever public forum, and it just… Nothing happens. And so I really do think that this is not an issue that's based on logic. This is not an issue that's based on actual reality. This is an issue that's purely emotional from people who are burnt out and who want to just continue to recreate this cycle. 

And like, again, this is a massive generalization. So, like, you know, asterisk, disclaimer, whatever, but that's- I cannot wrap my brain around, still, the idea of continuing to raise these very valid points about how the bar exam does not work anymore, and there being just no movement. And not just no movement, but, like, active pressing in the other direction, like resistance. 

Josey: Mmhmm.

Liz: That to me seems deeply emotional. 

Kate: Yeah. I think it's it's partially that thing that we've talked about, you know, that burnout. But I- I think it's also… Whenever you see that strong resistance to change in something, there's- there's a power dynamic that's being clung to there. And as we kind of already touched on, you know, the bar exam has for decades been known to be discriminatory, you know, it's ableist, it's racist, it's all sorts of ists that are unpleasant, and disproportionately eliminates attorneys who are diverse. 

Josey: Mmhmm.

Liz: Yeah.

Kate: And that is, obviously, in our opinion, a big problem, but in other people's opinion, possibly part of the purpose of it. 

Josey: Mhmm. 

Liz: Yep.

(Pause.)

Kate: (Laughing) Let's just sit with that. 

Liz: (Laughing) Yeah. We're just sitting with this.

Josey: It's interesting because the LSAT has just this year started making movements to change it or eliminate it because of the ways it disproportionately affects minorities, the ways it doesn't take into consideration the people that can take time to study and can’t. 

A test that's not even on the bar’s level is reevaluating how they're administering it and why they're administering it, because it is disproportionately affecting people and it is keeping people from an education, which- Anyone should have access to the education they wish to pursue. It's not giving everyone an equal chance. I'm hoping that if, on that level they can start addressing it already, eventually they will start to do that within the bar and- and hopefully that will change as well.

Kate: Yeah. And they are talking about changes. So I actually learned about this from a law student who I met at a conference recently. They do have this plan for the next generation bar exam… (Liz laughs.) It sounds honestly, like, the same test with, like, minor improvements. And also–

Liz: Yeah.

Kate: I was like, “Okay. Well, that's you know, at least they're doing something.” Right? And then I looked it up and it was like, A, it's gonna take four to five years to implement. 

Josey: Mhmm. 

Liz: Uh-huh.

Kate: B, the cost keep increasing.

Liz: Uh huh!

Kate: Like, I just got a proposal to increase the rates for the California bar, and the biggest proposed increases are for practicing attorneys, but student rates are proposed to increase by like a couple of hundred bucks in some cases. And I- When I was studying in four and taking the bar, I don't know how I would have done it if I didn't have a dual income. I was like, “How do other people afford this?” It's ridiculous.

Liz: And that's honestly part of why I think diploma privilege, as hard as we fought for it, was just never gonna happen. It all boils down to the money. The act of giving the exam, and then all of kind of the prep courses that are tied into that, and just- It is a revenue machine. Clearly, you know, no revamp of the bar exam is going to come with fewer costs. 

Kate: Yeah. The email about the rate increases were- It was very sad. It was like, “We haven't increased our rates since 2015, and we're really struggling…”

Josey: Poor them. (Liz laughs loudly.) Sorry. (Kate and Liz both laugh.) Sorry.

Liz: Oh, yeah!

Kate: The sarcasm was dripping out of my voice, so it's okay. And I was like… I understand, obviously, of course, administering a massive test like that does cost money, but also when I took it, they administer these test booklets that are like the same ones you got in public school in second grade. (Josey laughs.) I'm like, how much are these really costing? 

And maybe I don't know enough and maybe there are way more expenses than I even realize, but like, they're not paying to put people up at hotels to take the exam. I had to pay for my own hotel. They're not paying for anyone's transportation to take the exam. And they're just charging you–

Liz: No.

Kate: -- hundreds and hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars, to get your background check and to apply to take the exam and then to actually take the exam. It's ridiculous.

Josey: I'm sorry, but the number of fees they have is enough. They're not struggling. That's absurd.

Liz: No. It's it's absurd. It all boils down to the money. And I think that it's particularly egregious that it all tends to go straight to the examinees who just graduated from law school, who probably are steeped in debt.

Kate: Yes. 

Liz: And who are honestly least equipped to be paying a thousand bucks, like, here and there for the various components plus the prep course that you may need to pay for out of pocket if your firm isn't paying for it. It's it's outrageous. 

Josey: I was just going to say it disproportionately affects people that work at, you know, nonprofits or public interest, whatever it is, because people at large firms, like the ones I worked at, they pay for those fees. They pay the bar fees for their associates. And so- at or their attorneys in at large- and so they're also making the higher salaries, but- and they're also not having to pay those fees. 

Kate: Yeah. I do, you know, wanna put it out there for folks who are not taking the bar exam yet, but who want to go public interest: There are programs- I think I did mine through Barbri or Themis. I can't remember, but I think both of them have a discounted package for folks who can demonstrate that they wanna go into public interest. But it was still a lot of money. 

Some law schools will kind of help subsidize public interest careers too. Cornell is really good about that. They will help you pay back your loans if you're making less than a certain amount of money in a public interest job for- for up to ten years, which was very cool. And I talked some shit about Cornell in our first episode just kind of the general attitudes there, but they- it- there are some wonderful things about it as well. 

Liz: They can take it.

Kate: Yeah. Cornell's not going anywhere. I think they're gonna be okay. 

(Liz laughs)

Liz: That's honestly how I feel whenever I kind of rip into established organizations like bar examiners, or, like, you know, law schools, places like that, institutions like that. It's like, they're not going anywhere. Like, they're gonna be fine. 

Kate: Yeah.

Liz: The fact that Liz Gil, like, threw some shade on Twitter or, like, on a podcast. (Josey laughs.) Like, they're gonna be okay.

Kate: Totally. I was about to say like, “Oh, I don't wanna come across like I'm biting the hand that feeds me,” but I'm like, I fed them!

Liz: Feed?! Yeah.

Kate: I gave him so much money.

Liz: You guys are square at least.

Kate: Would love to hear more about diploma privilege and what your advocacy was around that. 

Liz: The movement that I was a part of was all centered on the pandemic. Right? We were advocating for emergency diploma privilege, meaning that given the state of the world, we could not have the bar exam under ethical circumstances, and so we needed to have another path to licensure.

You know, in your ideal world, question mark, having gone to law school for three years and having paid through the nose to do so would mean that you are already ready to practice as an attorney. That's not the reality. But what we were arguing for was, especially in the case of accredited law schools, allowing for a waiver of the bar exam so that people could go straight into the job that they already had, and they could begin practicing and making the money that they needed to. Because really, we all know at this point that the bar exam is not connected to practice, it’s become kind of a running joke among attorneys, and yet it still persists.

And we figured if it was a hurdle under normal situations that we just jump, the shift in the world dynam- of the universal dynamic around this pandemic, that surely meant that we could put those jokes and discourse aside and say, no, it's actually very important that we are able to really license the attorneys that are coming into our profession. Let's put the bar exam aside ‘cause we know that it is a questionable at best measure of competence and the state of the world right now is much more serious than any kind of discourse around a multiple choice slash essay exam. 

You know, I- I thought that that was common sense. If we're seeing people getting carted out to like fuel hospitals in Central Park, yeah. Yeah. The bar exam is not going to be top of mind such that we are twisting ourselves into pretzels trying to administer this exam as- Especially not in person!

 And yet I continued to be shocked by the way that New York especially doubled down on administrating it in person. I mean, the New York Court of Appeals released letters that basically said, “We have a plan We're going to host this exam in person. We're just not going to release the details yet.”

 And then, of course, weeks later, finally go to remote, but then people have to switch their plans. And so it was kind of like we were being held hostage by this group of people who kept thinking, “No, we can continue to host the bar exam under these normal situations,” when the world was simply not normal.

Kate: God, I can't imagine how stressful that must have been. Because, like, I took the bar exam under normal circumstances, and I had the luxury of getting to take the several months off beforehand and just study. And I was still so stressed out and so anxious about it. I cannot imagine.

Liz: People were scrambling. It- it was nuts. People were traveling all around. People were trying, you know, to figure out where they were gonna stay, it was it was pandemonium.

Our advocacy for diploma privilege, that was all emergency diploma privilege based on the context that we were in in that moment. That being said, I'm still very much a supporter of alternative forms of licensure. I do think that there are serious issues with law school and how well it prepares you for practice. There's a huge variety and quality of legal education, and- and that's not lost on anybody, but I do think that the bar exam is not an effective Band Aid, and we've been treating it like that for years now.

I think we need to kind of go to the root cause and fix legal education. And at that point, I think diploma privilege is the the obvious answer. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Kate: We've touched on that it's racially biased that it's ableist in- in lots of ways, but I think one of the the big ways is folks who are not good at standardized testing. 

Josey: Yeah. I think the problem is that you can have all of this real world experience, you can have these things that really have prepared you to be a lawyer. And although I felt and the attorneys that I worked with felt that I could do well in law school and have a career in this, the LSAT told me and then told the admissions committees that I could not.

And I think that that was one of the most frustrating things for me, and I'm- To go even further, you know, I took the lsat during the pandemic while working, you know, sixty hours a week. So I'm supposed to be studying for this test, which I'm know I'm gonna be bad at regardless, and I took it during COVID. And the first time I took it wasn't great. I took it again, and the second time I took it was during the insurrection at the Capitol in DC.

(Kate gasps.)

Liz: Oh my god. 

Josey: And it was that day. So I hear people screaming outside. (Kate and Liz both gasp loudly) Yeah. I heard people scream- I heard people screaming outside. I’m mid-test trying to focus on this thing, but I can hear people freaking out. 

Liz: (Laughing) You're doing your little logic game, like... 

Josey: Yeah. Exactly. Trying to figure out-

Kate: (Laughing) You’re like, “Who lives in Apartment B and who lives in Apartment A? I don't care!”

Josey:  Yeah. All of this is going on, and I was like, I- I can't focus. That's- I’m thirsty, I need a drink, all the things that you already need during testing, but I'm hearing people scream outside. And I know something's happening.

And then I later tried to appeal to the the board and say, “Look, this crazy thing happened. I was living in DC when this happened. You know, I was in kind of thick of it. And it did affect my ability to focus and do well.” And they didn't- they didn't have any leniency with that. 

And the hard thing is for the LSAT, your scores are averaged. So if I got a bad score on one and then a good score on the other, they're not gonna see the good score. They're just gonna- they're going to get the average. And so I had one that I didn't love already, and then I had this major thing happen that, affected my test the second time and -- 

Kate: Oh my god. 

Josey: (Laughign) -- it just average out to two bad scores.

And so it ruined my chances of getting into any of the universities that I- I applied to, which was really disheartening. And because I had done so much work to try to do this, I think that was a major part that kind of played into the burnout. I was like, “Why am I forcing myself to work in these circumstances and also not have much hope at the moment of going anywhere else with this?”

Kate: It was like, what you'd wanted to do since you were nineteen, so that's even more disheartening to then have this just stupid standardized test tell you you can't do it. 

Josey: Yeah. And the thing is, at this point, I don't even know if I would wanna be a practicing attorney, but I really wanted to go to law school because I loved studying law. Like, that's how- I'm a nerd. And so I really wanted just the chance to go study it, and I couldn't even have that opportunity to go. There were schools that probably would have taken me. Would those schools have set me up for the certain things that I wanted to do? Would they have been schools that the firms I was working in would have recognized? No.

And so that's the other challenging part of it for me was that, sure I could do this, but I'm going to go into a lot of debts for an education that a lot of people aren't gonna look twice at. I am still a very privileged person and don't have half of the things against me that many people do trying to do this, but I still had those barriers. 

And then to Liz's point, you have all these other barriers keeping you from just practicing. So where is this field and this study actually encouraging justice and equality and people to go out and do the things that it stands for when it's not even giving them those things in return?

Liz:  You know, I hadn't actually realized that you had reached out to the board. The moment that you mentioned that part of your story, I just I knew where it was going. Because, at least based on my experience in advocating during Barpocalypse, it's that exact same impulse to say, “Well, you know, practice is gonna be hard.”

Josey: Mhmm. 

Liz: Which when we actually think about the kinds of experiences and events that they are saying that in response to, it's unhinged! You're talking about the insurrection, the potential fall of our democracy. We're talking about a global pandemic that is killing people by the day. 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Liz: How can you possibly say with a straight face, “Ah, yes. These are just like the kinds of (Kate and Liz laugh) distractions you'll experience in practice.” 

Kate: Like day-to-day. Yeah.

Liz: Are you- There's this disconnect from reality. And yet it seems like there's this uncontrollable impulse to- whenever somebody who is taking one of these exams faces hardship- to hit them with that. “Well, you know, practice is hard.” It doesn't feel to me at the point, like anyone is truly saying, “Practice is just like this,” in good faith.

And that, to me, is so sad because how is a profession going to continue to survive if they have this automatic reticence to accept new entrants? And reticence, again, I think, is an understatement. 

Kate: Yeah. And to that point, why? Why do we wanna keep people out? Why why do we wanna have these barriers? And I know why, historically, but to Josey's point that she made earlier, why do we want to keep people from education? Why do we wanna keep people from having the chance to just learn about it? 

Liz: It should be very- very simple. 

Josey: To that point, I think what's interesting is that they act as though it's somehow inconvenient for them to have more students that maybe may not be good at law in their programs. But I’m like, you're gonna be making money off of them still. So why do you care? They're gonna be paying you all this money. (Kate laughs.) Why do you not wanna take their money? (Laughing) It seems like you do in every other area. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Liz: I think it's funny because it all comes back to the self. And again, I'm generalizing, but I feel like the people who have this kind of approach towards newcomers, they think, “Oh, if we just let ‘anyone’-quote unquote- into this profession, that reflects on me.”

Kate: Mm!

Liz: “That reflects on how hard I worked.” 

Josey: Yeah. 

Liz: “And so we need to make this harder and harder and harder so that then I can look at how many people got excluded from this industry--

Josey: Mmhmm.

Liz: -- and think to myself, ‘Wow, I'm one of the chosen ones.’”

Kate: Yes!

Liz: Right? 

Josey: They can keep an exclusive little club. 

Liz: They can keep an exclusive club!

Kate: Lawyers do like to feel special.

Josey: And smarter than everyone else. So if people that don't have the same grades get in and whatnot, then I must not be as smart as built myself up to be. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Liz: Which like is sad to admit even to myself out loud because it's like it goes back to playground behavior. Right? It's like, oh, I have the coolest shovel in the sandbox. Like, look at everybody else. Like, how do you reason with people like that who are stuck in that kind of mindset? “If somebody else succeeds, that takes away my piece of the pie.” I think about my classmates and, like, they're wonderful people.

Kate: Yeah!

Liz: And, like, this rhetoric seems to be consistent across a lot of law schools out there and people just show up and they want to study law. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Liz: Like, they want to just kind of like, do exactly what Josey said! Often people show up to law school excited--

Kate: Yes. 

Liz: --you know, to be joining a profession that they think is about perpetuating equity and justice. And- and then it becomes this, like, “Welcome to hell.” You know? Like, what? 

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: Yeah. And I think the first sign of that is when they say don't work during studying for the LSAT, don't work when you study for the bar, and don't work during your 1L year. And as soon as you say that, it's coming from a place of privilege assuming that because they've seen their students and the people that they admit be able to do that. And the reality is for a lot of people, that's either not an option or that's gonna put them into so much more debt-- 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Liz: Yeah. 

Josey: --that they already can't afford to pay back. And then their only options after that are law firms, are Biglaw, are places that are going to pay them in enough to pay that back. And that is, like, the first red flag to me is every time I hear this, “Don't work during this, this, or this, otherwise you won't be able to do as well.” I'm like, that's an issue. If you will have to tell adults not to work, that's a problem.

No education should be so exclusive and so intense that it doesn't allow people to do the basic things they need to do to live and survive. 

Liz: Yeah.

Kate: Yeah. A hundred percent. Then they're like, “Oh, and by the way, your summers? You don't get to then either. You have to have an internship or you won't get a job after law school.” I mean, the firms tend to pay, but like, I never wanted to go to a firm. I knew that going into law school, I never let myself be bullied otherwise. And and they'll try, man. They will, like… (Liz laughs) The big law culture is very emphatic. 

Liz: Yeah.

Kate: I actually, I got lucky, I- A lot of folks throughout both of the- I did my first year in Boulder and then transferred to Cornell and- and both places I found a lot of people who are really supportive of- of public interest. But I've heard stories from other places that it's definitely not like that. And oh, and on top of interning during your summer, by the way, you also have to get on law review or do journals or do all that, which Liz, you and I both of us said, “Fuck no.”

Liz: Oh, yeah. No. I was like screw that.

Kate: Me too!

Liz: And I- I recognize that comes from a massive place of privilege. Again.

Kate: Yes. Yeah. 

Liz: Like, I- I the fact that I was even able in that moment to say, “I don't have the bandwidth. I don't wanna do this,” and take that kind of risk, because law review really is continually framed as this thing that you must do–

Kate: Yeah.

Liz: --in order to get into Biglaw, and the fact that I had the privilege of saying, “You know what? I really don't wanna do law review. I don't think it will truly affect my job prospects the way that people say, but like let's roll the dice anyway.” That's something that a lot of people cannot do. 

Kate: Yeah.

Liz: And- and I completely recognize that. That being said, I do think that law review is a scam.

(Kate and Liz laugh.)

Kate: Yeah. I was told public interest doesn't care, which they didn't at all. They you know, they want people who are passionate about whatever cause that they're pursuing and that is the main metric in public interest, which is why I wish so many more… I wish it paid better, I wish it was more talked about in law school because…

It can burn you out too, it burned me out, because work can be really hard. But so many people I think go into law school, like you said, idealistic and excited and wanting to change the world, and that gets beaten out of them in law school or in a big firm when they actually go that route to try and pay off their debt and then say, “Okay, I'm gonna follow my heart later.” But then also by that time you're used to a Biglaw salary. To go to a non profit job or a public interest job can be a pay cut of fifty percent if not more -- 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: -- depending on where you're practicing. And and that's unsust- You- You can't go from that to that without again a huge amount of privilege. So a lot of people who go into nonprofit and public interest work are inherently privileged and helping all of these people who do not have that experience and that they don't relate to in the same way, and so they're not helping them as effectively.

Liz: Right. 

Kate: It’s a whole issue. 

Josey: Yeah. And we just kinda had this discussion the other day, Kate and I, where… It was like, I always assumed that if I did go to law school, I would end up at a big law firm. And I was always going to do all the things that I had to do to, you know, law review all of that, because I knew that my test scores or grades probably weren't gonna speak enough of me, say enough positive things about me to get me anywhere that I needed to go. And so I always planned to go by the book and to then go into Biglaw, and there's a lot of flaws in Biglaw, but there are some firms- Like, I was lucky enough to work for a large firm that was amazing. 

Kate: Mhmm.

Josey: And they do work very hard to try to create some balance and and to be better than the status quo, but there's still a systematic issue with it that is glorified. 

Kate; Yeah. So before we wrap up, I feel like we've done a lot of… (Laughs) Done a lot of complaining. (Liz laughs.) We've talked a lot about the issues, which I think is important. As you said Liz, like, people are uncomfortable talking about this stuff. People are uncomfortable criticizing the legal industry a lot of times. So I it's important to talk about- about the problems, but what do you see as some of the kind of alternatives or solutions to all of these issues that we've been talking- Not all, you don't have to solve…

(All laugh.)

Liz: I was like, “How much time do you have?”

Josey: Please solve all our problems.

Liz: Eek!

Kate: Please fix everything about law school and the legal system immediately.

Josey: No pressure.

Kate: But, you know, the bar exam, for example, since that's what we're talking about. So how do we what- what- what do we do instead of the bar exam? Liz, fix it now! Go!

Liz: You know, it's it's funny because one of the reasons I came on this podcast was, like, the fact that after advocating for so long and not even as long as other people have, you know, have been facing my own burnout and not knowing what to do. And so it's just very funny to be like, “Okay Liz, what do we do?”

(All laugh.)

Kate: Then you don't have to answer!

Josey:  Maybe just what you're kind of mission is right now? What are- what are you…

Kate: Yeah. That's a better question. 

Josey: You’ve talked about the diploma privilege aspect of it that, you know, was a struggle, but what do you look forward to now in this advocacy? Or not- or taking a break because you're burnt out? You know, whatever it is that's next.

Kate: Yeah.

Liz: Yeah. Right- right now, what's been keeping me going is seeing the other advocates out there who are continuing to focus on this issue. I mean, I- I have a lot of fire and passion around this- this problem to begin with, but I think that feeling alone is something that will drive you into the ground really, really quickly. And so seeing people like the professors that I've mentioned before, even I wanna give a shout out to Joe Patrice, who kept us laughing at Above the Law all throughout Barpocalypse, and has kept the issue topical and has also platformed advocates like me and helped us get into those kinds of highly readable forums. Like, that is- that is advocacy work too. 

Seeing people continuing to focus on this issue and not just sweep it under the rug the way that I personally believe the people in charge, the people who benefit from it, want us to… That has kind of keep the the fire alive. And then also allowing myself to take baby steps. You know, I totally recognize that tweeting is not enough. That being said, there is some- there is something to be said for the fact that getting your voice out there and starting these conversations and participating in these conversations, as easy as it may be to write a couple characters and hit “tweet,” you know, that starts something.

I feel like there's this fear of, “Oh, I'm not doing enough.” There's this tendency to undermine ourselves and and the work that we do here, but I think it really does start small. And when I get overwhelmed, with the various things going on and the various things to fix- because there's a lot of lot to fix in this industry I kind of go back to basics and think, okay, what do I have the bandwidth for? What do I have the emotional capacity for? And just kind of go from there. 

And I think that the people around me and the people around other advocates who have supported us throughout understand that kind of the fluctuation of advocacy and the fact that long term means that there will inevitably be hills and valleys, and that kind of understanding helps the the consistency, at least in my experience, as well.

So it's not an answer. I don't- I don't have an answer, unfortunately.

Kate: You don’t have to.

Liz: Like, I'm sorry to whoever may have been listening (Laughing) waiting for the three of us to, like, figure out everything in law.

Kate: Other people have suggestions. (Liz laughs.) We brought up some stuff, you know, that's fine. 

Liz: But I guess for the people out there who have been doing what I've been doing and not feeling like they're doing enough, I think that it's important to remember that every little- every little bit counts. As- as canned as that may sound, like, continuing the conversation just kind of tirelessly advocating for change. Because a lot of people just take the bar exam and then just forget about it. 

Kate: Mhmm.

Liz: You know? And that's that's how a lot of it has remained. 

Kate: When I was burned out, hearing other people just talk about their experiences with burnout was so valuable to me just even if they didn't offer a solution, like, it was very cathartic and I feel like it's the same when you're stressed by the bar exam, you know?

Josey: Yeah.

Liz: Mmhmm.

Kate: I also wanna say if- to any students, or not students, but any bar exam takers who are being brave enough to listen to this (All laugh) in the period during or immediately after the bar exam, is that one of the things that I felt like I needed to hear when I was studying and I was so anxious about it was that… you might fail and that that's okay. 

Liz & Josey: Mmhmm.

Kate: Because what I kept hearing from people I would express my anxiety about it was, “Well, have you ever failed anything before? Have you ever, you know- You're you're smart, you're a good test take or whatever, like, you- you- you'll be fine.” And that would make me so much more anxious because I was like, this is different. This is a whole different animal. And I need somebody to acknowledge the fact that I might fail, that that is a reality. 

Liz: Yeah. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: And finally, I said that to my husband and then he started being like, “I believe you can pass, but you might fail, and that's okay.” (Laughing) You know, he was like- I just needed that. So I wanna provide that to other people who need to hear it. Yes, it is a possibility that you might fail. And you can be the smartest person- You can be the smartest person in the room. You can still fail the bar exam. And now I feel like I'm stressing everybody out to say that, you know, anybody could fail the bar exam, but you'll be okay if you do fail.

Josey: Mmhmm.

Liz: Yes.

Kate: It's all gonna be fine and I feel like that narrative does not get pushed at all anywhere. It's all about passing and don't even wanna think about failing. 

Liz: It's all about passing and then silence if you fail. It's more than okay to fail. Anyone worth their salt at this point knows that the bar exam not measure competence. It does not indicate how you're going to be as an attorney. If you fail, that's- that does not indicate anything about your potential as a lawyer and is not a source of judgment in any way, shape, or form. 

Kate: No. 

Josey: Once you've taken it again and made it, or done something, you know, made your next move that you're successful at, no one's gonna be looking back at that failure and judging you for it or measuring you by it.

Kate: No. And no sane person who's taken the bar exam would judge anyone else for failing it. I mean, we all-

(Josey laughs.)

Liz: Oh my god, yeah.

Kate: Anyone who has any amount of judgment whatsoever walks out of that thing going, “Oh my god.”

Liz: I was literally gonna say, I'd I have never heard from anybody who's walked out of it and been like, “That was cool.” Like, “I felt good about that.”

(Josey laughs.)

Kate: I don't know those people. I don't know if they really exist. But, we believe in you, and it's an accomplishment just to have gotten through it. I mean.

Josey: Yeah. 

Liz: Oh my god. Yeah. 

Kate: So.

Josey: Just to be taking it. You got into law- going through law school and you're taking the bar. That's an accomplishment in and of itself. 

Kate: Yes. 

Liz: Yeah. 

Josey: You make it through, and that's massive. 

Liz: The one thing that I did wanna say while I was prepping for the bar exam and then afterwards, I started a Notion page in collaboration with somebody actually from Twitter whose idea it was, where I collected a lot of bar exam outlines that have been created by previous bar examinees. 

Kate: Oh!

Liz: And, at least in my experience, when I took the bar exam, I- The commercial outlines were fine, but I had to kind of distill things in my own visual way. I had to- and so I made a bunch of charts, and other people kind of made other forms of resources. And so I just kind of collected those and put them on page. And so, like, I'm gonna repin that to my profile on Twitter in case it's helpful for anyone. But it's obviously entirely free and people can just can just download it. 

Kate: That's fantastic. 

Josey: Great.

Liz: If it's helpful. 

Josey: That’s amazing.

Kate: Yeah. And Liz, send that to us too so that we can put it in like the episode description and stuff. So–

Liz: Yeah, for sure. 

Kate: --folks can have that access to it. You know, that's a great resource. Thank you for sharing it. 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: This was an awesome conversation. Liz, thank you again so much for being our guinea pig and our- our first guest interview!

Liz: Oh my gosh, thank you! This was awesome. I was so nervous at first, and now I'm feeling great.

Josey: Liz, it was an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Seriously. This was so, so great. 

Liz: Thank you so much for having me. No. Wonderful to meet you both and and hopefully, you can stay in touch and maybe chat again.

Kate and Josey: Absolutely!

Liz: I mean, obviously, tons of thoughts that we could hang out for another afternoon and keep going. 

Josey: Perfect.

Kate: A hundred percent.

Josey: We're on board already. 

Kate: Yep. We're there.

Liz: Awesome.

Outtro

Kate: Hi, everyone. Kate here. I just wanted to let you know that in the interest of not burning ourselves out on a project about burnout, we will be taking next week off. So there will be no new episode next week, August 2nd, 2023, but we will be back August 9th with the hilarious Matt Margolis, well-known content creator, and head of community- and as of recently, head of legal- at Lawtrades. Have a great week and take care of yourselves.

The Legal Burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.