Kate Bridal: Saint Bernards are big babies. My ex had a Saint Bernard and he would get bullied by the chihuahuas at the dog park. I was like, “You know you could eat one of those things in a single bite, right?”

CJ Donald: Yeah, use your space. 

Kate: (Laughing) Yeah. Use your space. Exactly.

Introduction

Kate: I'm Kate Bridal, a former attorney who never cared that much for the law. 

Josey Hoff: And I'm Josey Hoff, a former paralegal who loves it.

Kate: And this is our podcast where we talk about all the stuff that leads to burnout in the legal industry, try to offer some solutions, and maybe occasionally live up to our title. Welcome to the Legal Burnouts.

Episode 3

Kate: Honey honey?

Josey: Yes, darling?

Kate: You wanna do a podcast?

Josey: Sure. 

Kate: I'm glad that you said yes today –

Josey: I am too.

Kate: because we’ve got CJ Donald here today. CJ is a corporate attorney at a large law firm. He focuses on financial transactions and sports. He can be found on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube @attorney.cj. CJ, thank you so much for being here with us on The Legal Burnouts. 

CJ: I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Hoping to make you proud here. 

Kate: Impossible not to. So we usually start just chatting a little with the guest about their experience with burnout. Would love to hear your story, how you kinda came through it because obviously you are still practicing.

CJ: Yeah. 

Kate: So you didn't burn out and peace out of the law completely like Josey and I did.

So would love to hear kind of how you reached that point as well and and got past it. 

CJ: Awesome. I think what you all are doing is great because people need to hear these stories and know kinda how they can navigate this space. People talk- talk about this a lot, I think, you know, being tired of work or kind of burned out on the law. And a lot of people, as you just mentioned, do end up quitting. But for some people, they either don't wanna quit because they do like the job or they can't quit right now. So you have to figure out what you can do to change your relationship with work and sometimes with yourself.

So for me, that just meant recognizing how I was burnt out, and then figuring out how to fix it. So as background, I went to Vanderbilt for law school. With my firm, I joined as a second year summer associate and then rejoined them after law school was over, so I had been with the same firm for about three, three-and-a-half years. And then during the pandemic, my wife and I moved halfway across the country. So I changed firms in from a big firm to a small firm. And then about two months after that, I went back to my original big firm. 

And in the middle of all that, we're all navigating kind of this worldwide mental health issue. You’re tired of being at home. You're tired of doing your job. You're tired of working more hours at home than you were before the pandemic. And so in the middle of that, I really kind of realized, wait a minute: I'm not sure I could do this at this pace forever. 

And so I was burnt out at what I guess we'll call later, race work. But then, more than that, I was burnt out on the actual day-to-day grind of law. And it was interesting because I never stopped enjoying the actual work with a subject matter, but I definitely got to a point where I just realized, wait a minute… I'm having extreme fatigue.

Josey: Yep. Yeah. 

Kate: Yeah. And what- what did it look like for you? We've talked a little bit about, like, freezing, which happened to both of us, where you- you know, you get to work and you're like, “I can't start.” What was it like for you? 

CJ: It got to where the work had sucked me in so much that the things I used to enjoy, I didn't. Right? So I wasn't, like, seeing friends anymore and family recognized that my mood had always changed, and I wasn't really working out anymore.

And I'm a huge sports nerd, always have been. Probably was a two and a half year period where I didn't watch any basketball, didn't watch any baseball. That's how my family and I bond. That's how my family and my friends bond. And so it was actually in conversation with my wife and some other friends that they said, “Are you okay?” Like- like, “What's going on?” 

It wasn't that I hated my job, right? I actually liked my job a lot. But I realized that the way I was working was unsustainable. Right? And I think all of us get to this point where you feel like, okay, either what I'm doing is not right or how I'm doing it is not right. And what I realized is that I was doing a lot of work that I had outgrown.

Kate: Mm.

CJ: And no one prepares you for, like, how to deal with that. Right? And when your team is so busy, the bosses don't really wanna hear, “Hey, I think I should be getting, like, higher quality work.”

Kate: Yeah. 

CJ: Like, that's a hard thing to say when everyone's just hanging on by- by a thread. And so in yourself, either you recognize that or you kinda suffer through it like I did. 

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: I find that so interesting. 

Kate: I also find it interesting, and I do think that that's a trap that a lot of people fall into in the law is the kind of general idea is, well, it's supposed to kind of suck?

CJ: Mmhmm.

Kate: Like it's supposed to be hard to practice law and it's- But it doesn't have to be shitty in that way. 

CJ: Right.

Kate: You're like, “Well, I'm gonna have to put my time in and keep my head down and do that crappy work.” What do you do then when you hit that point where you're like, “I've evolved past this point”?

CJ: Exactly. And I didn't even recognize I just was like, “Well, this is all bad.” And it wasn't until I got a little bit of a breakout work and I got to step back and, like, really trying to write down, okay. What do I what like about my life right now? What do I dislike about it? Right?

And it- looked at my list. Like, I had a physical list. I think, okay, well, I actually do like what I'm doing. I like the people. I like, you know, frankly, how law- how lawyers are compensated at big law firms. 

Kate: Mhmm. 

CJ: I like, you know, the firm that I'm at.

And then you have to have the courage to talk to people that are your supporters to say, I need help. Lucky for me, when it comes to the work portion, I had really good supervisors who were like, “Okay. We can help you with some of this. It won't change overnight, but we can try to start messaging like he needs more complicated work.”

And I think if you're at a good firm, right, they don't wanna lose you so they try to figure out how to make it work with you. 

Kate: Yeah. 

CJ: The one thing I did not understand as I went through this is that you have to really, really ask for what you want. And people say that all the time, you know, “You're your own best advocate,” we hear that all the time. “You're the CEO of your own career,” we hear that all the time. But until you're really in the hole, you- you don't understand what that means.

And I was really good at running a deal after the docs had been kind of negotiated. I was like excellent at that. Partners would check out on me, like, and leave it all to me. And I got so much of that and so good at that that they were like, “Well, he can handle anything.”

I was ready for something different. But until I recognized it, had the courage to say, “I need something different.” It sucked, it absolutely sucked. 

Josey: Yeah. And when you were experiencing that kind of… you needed more substantial work, you needed something that pushed you a little bit further, were you in a Biglaw setting or was that when you were in a smaller law firm? 

CJ: A little bit of both. I think the difference between small law firms and big law firms is that at small law firms, if the firm is marketed as a full-service firm– and my firm was a full-service transactional firm– then clients will throw you any kind of work, and partners will throw you any kind of work that's even remotely related to your wheelhouse. Whereas in a big place, you get kind of your small group’s piece of that pie. Right? But you get a whole lot of it. 

The current switching of task is something I really love.Most law firm lawyers like doing the same thing every day, and I just don't. But I recognized that I was ready just for a larger role on every single team that I was on. And I- I kind of verified that objectively against my year-end reviews, my mid-year reviews, I'd kind of asked my partners for post-deal feedback. So I was like, “Well, I think I'm ready. I think I'm ready for that next step.” And you just have to ask.

Kate: Yeah, I never thought about that in big firms versus small firms, that it can be easier to get pigeonholed in a big firm because there are so many people to do the work that you can wind up getting very niche and kind of… 

CJ: Yes.

Kate: The curse of competence. 

CJ: Yeah!

Kate: Like, oh, this guy's good at this thing. So we're gonna give him all of that. 

CJ: Right. 

Kate: That's all you get to do now. Yeah.

CJ: And there's some safety in that. Right? There's some safety in people knowing that–

Kate: Yeah.

CJ: Oh, like CJ is really good at corporate finance. Well, what if I also like general transactional work or what if I like restructuring work as well?

Then at- at sometimes at bigger firms, if you don't have a good relationship with other sections or your partners, or the boldness in yourself to say, “I wanna do other stuff,” then you get- you get stuck. 

Josey: And I think I asked about the small firm versus a large firm because although I'm not an attorney, I feel like our stories kinda follow the same path. I used to go to sporting events all the time. I was living in DC at the time, so I was always at the Nationals games, I was always at the Wizards games, I was always doing all these things. And as soon as I started to burn out, my friends were like, “Where are you?” You know, why are we not going to these games all the time? 

It is things like that where you start to realize people outside of your work are noticing that you are not the same person or you're not involved the same way that you used to be. They don't always know what it is, but something is keeping you from being there.

CJ: So Josey, was it that your friends recognize it in you first or did you recognize it in yourself first?

Josey: They recognized it in me first. 

Kate: That's interesting. 

Josey: Because I get very narrow visioned. So if there's a job at hand and I feel like I can't complete it well enough or that there's always something I could be doing, I can't set it down. And so I couldn't step away. It wasn't until my friends were like, “Josey, We haven't gone to a game or talked about the draft or done anything like that in months.” And that's how I recognized it. What about you? 

CJ: I do a lot of, like, self-audits. Like, I do, like, one half- at the half point of the year, one at the end of the year, almost every year. 

Kate: That’s smart. 

Josey: Mhmm. 

CJ: I'm not sure where I picked it up, but it's something that's helped me stay on track, and I noticed, “Wait a minute. I'm just, like, going down a path, and I'm not sure what's at the end of that path or if I even want that thing.” But I do know that I- I did wanna have a better relationship with my family and friends. I did want to get back to doing some of my hobbies. Like, I- I did wanna be more thoughtful about how I spending my time. Because the thing about earn out that people don't tell you is that you will start using the time you do have unwisely.

(Josey laughs.)

Kate: Ohhhh!

CJ: Right? It's almost as like a punishment against yourself.

Kate: Ouch. Wow. I've never heard someone say that, but that is so true, like… 

Josey: Yeah

Kate: And that can be unwisely in a lot of ways. It could be, like, self-medication unwisely. 

CJ: Right.

Kate: It can be all sorts of things. That's so… Yeah, that’s so true. 

CJ: Right? If- if you're going through a hard time, like, mentally like, I- I do think that when you have that free time, you don't wanna then like, run to the gym or run to the game, or to see your friends, or run to call your mom or dad. It's like, okay, how can I sit here and scroll on TikTok for two hours? 

Josey: Mmhmm.

Kate: Yeah. 

CJ: Right? And not even creating, like, for us, we're creators, not even creating, like, I'm just gonna scroll.

Kate: Oh, yeah.

Josey: One hundred percent.

Kate: I guess I experienced this the first time I burned out, but this last time that I burned out, that was my big symptom that I kept pointing to. And- and it wasn't just that I didn't wanna do things that I normally loved. It was that those things- thinking about those things started giving me anxiety out of nowhere.

Making a stupid TikTok, for example. I was just like, “I can't, I can't sit down and do it.” I- I said it to my husband. I was like, “I feel like I'm not being the best worker I can be at my job. I feel like I'm not being the best daughter, the best wife, the best anything. I- I just feel like everything I'm doing is half-assed.” 

Yeah. Using your time unwisely, that one… (Sighs.) I wanna hear what that meant for you though, CJ, when you say that. 

CJ: For me, it meant, like, you know, not going to the gym, watching things on TV that I would never watch before, like, scrolling online. Right? In ways that never had before, ways that I don't want to. (Laughing.)) The thing that people don't think about all time, is like getting in bed and actually going to sleep rather than scrolling.

(Josey laughs, Kate gasps.)

I- you know, when when I was at the kind of the lowest point really struggling with, like, what am I doing? The rest time was just nonexistent. I created all kinds of things to watch and listen to that weren't productive and weren't really enjoyable. Is this how I wanna spend my life? You know? Like, what do I wanna do with my time?

Josey: It's so funny because I think that there is a combination of things, and I think it's very unique to the experiences that all three of us have had in that we started to experience burnout and make changes during a pandemic. 

I had a hard time identifying burnout because I was, like, the outside stressors that are not work-related: Is that what's influencing me just scrolling on my phone for hours when I would take a break? Or is it that my job is burning me out? And I know that I continued to push in situations that I should not have -- 

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: -- because I thought it was not work-related at first. How did you differentiate between those things? Because you did move during the pandemic and you did kind of have that same experience? 

CJ: It was something that I thought about a lot and that my wife and I talked about a lot. I've truly tried to figure out, okay, like, what about this thing right here in front of me, is not making me happy? Because all the other things being equal, if this is just a job or we can we can fix that, right? If it's something else, then you have to really have a deeper conversation.

So I really tried to be intentional before I made any moves to really analyze what part of, like, my life I needed to change.

Kate: Yeah. And I like that you mentioned making a list because that's kind of what I tell other people to do. And I don't know that I ever did it- if I actually ever wrote it down. 

But it's like, oh, you know, it's a pandemic, there are so many things that could be causing me to feel this way. And yes, it's especially bad at work, but maybe it's transferred from somewhere else. And one thing I did was get a therapis,t which was great. When you're anxious and burned out other things that are completely unrelated start giving you anxiety, and you really have to kind of be intentional in how you parse like -- 

CJ: Yes.

Kate: -- what's the source of that. And I love your idea of, like, that you do kind of a self-audit. I would love to hear a little more about, like- 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: I picture you with like a pie chart and a whiteboard, like, really…

CJ: It is not at all organized. And it's- it's all handwritten.

But I've… Like, every year when the year starts, I make personal goals, professional goals, like, relationship goals. You have to really analyze when you get to the six month mark, okay, how did I do? And is there something that's happening that's making me not get there? Or am I not wanting to do that anymore, right? It gives you really kind of an objective, measurable way to analyze what's been happening. And then, this is something I still want?

And I really realized, especially in law, if you don't kind of guide your own life, your own career, you'll just go down the path that you haven'tm you know, picked for yourself.

Josey: So when you started to experience burnout and you started to reevaluate, how did you approach that reevaluation?

CJ: So I put all the options on the table. Is it that I need to be in a different industry? Is that I need to be in a different kind of law firm? Do I need a different legal job? Do I need to go back to school? Like- like, what is it that's going to help me? 

I'm in a place where I like to be the culture is great. The kind of work is great. The clients are great. Okay. I like the people, but I'm not liking what I'm doing. So is there anybody that can help me with it? So I really kind of talks with my friends, my peers within the firm.

And I think the key here is that since we're, like, talking to a group that might need this advice: I don't talk about any of my work problems that they do that I can't trust, but these are my trusted advisors, my peers, people who have been there for me before. And I just asked them, “Okay. If you were me, what would you do?” And some of them were saying, “Man, I'd get a hit a hundred and I'd apply for other jobs.” Or “Hey, you should start actively refusing this kind of work.” Like, they give you all these ranges of things. 

And then you get to pick from that- people that are smart (Kate laughs) like what fits you best, what you wanna do. Right?

Because I- I- I- like I mentioned before, I wasn't ready to quit. Right? 

Kate: Right.

CJ: And I wasn't gonna start actively turning down work because I'm like, like I mentioned I like the work, like I like my clients.

So then you have to find somebody who's willing to help you. And I have this great supervisor. And she say, “You know, honestly, what you're bringing up: One, it's not uncommon. And two, in a perfect world, we, as partners, would be. Like monitoring this for you.”

Kate: Mhmm. 

CJ: But everyone gets so busy. And I understand that. Right? Everyone's just trying to get through their twenty four hours of the day. If you're not trying to meet with people and trying to connect with them on their level and remind them, you know, your interest and what you wanna do where you wanna go, you're gonna get lost, because people are just trying to get through their day. 

I just really have to sit down and get some good advice and then from there, I kind of acted on it and wouldn't take no for an answer. The advice I got from my supervisor was, take nothing except for things that are gonna get you to the next goal, the next level. And it was painful for about six weeks because all of a sudden I had no work.

Kate: Yeah.

CJ: But then it flipped. 

Kate: That's scary too, like…

CJ: It is scary, right? Because we're looking at the economy like, okay, well, did I just waste two months when now we're looking at a possible recession. Did I just you know -- 

Kate: Right. 

CJ: -- are people now gonna say, “Well, he's not producing that he has to go.” But luckily, I had support of my supervisor, my section chair, my department head, and they were really, like, behind me on, “Okay. Like, we hear you. It's gonna take us, like, some time to really fix this for you, but we don't want you to sucked into things that you've already done, already mastered. Let's push you forward.”

And I I think this is like one of the reasons why, like, the law firm culture just sucks because nobody talks about how to actually make it. Right? People just, like, pretend like we're all billing, you know, twenty-five hundred hours a year, we're all getting the best bonus, and everyone's career is very linear.

If I told somebody on the outside, “Man, I took two months where, like, I was doing a lot of, like, non-billable work, a lot of work for people that wasn't in my section, but I was pivoting within my own group,” that sounds crazy. Right? But it happens so much, and no one talks about it. Like, and it's and it's okay. 

Kate: Yes. 

Josey: Yeah. I think that that's amazing.

Kate: Yeah. It's in law school. All you get said is the linear path all day every day.

CJ: Yep.

Kate: You don't hear about alternative legal careers for folks who don't want to litigate or go into a firm, you don't hear about alternative career paths with infirms, none of that. And even within law school, there's flexibility they don't tell you about. Like, I didn't do law review, I didn't do a law journal, I didn't want to, and I didn't I still got hired. It's okay. (Laughing) I probably wouldn't have gotten hired at a firm, I guess.

Josey: I love that you didn't do law review.

Kate: Talk about burnout, man. I was like, I don't want to do that.

Josey: Yeah, people are terrified not to do it because it's like this golden ticket to getting hired. I love that you didn't do that. 

It's interesting that you talked about CJ not giving up on finding the next thing that you could do within your job, you know, and pushing to to get that next step and pushing the people they were talking to about, you know, this isn't working for me. I need to find something within this firm that does work for me.

This is also something I've found in Biglaw is that it can be hard when you make that initial push. It takes a few tries because it is is a larger organization, but it is worth pushing and and continuing on that path to find the next thing, and I think that you are case in point of that. 

CJ: There's these- all these paths that people could take even within firms, within the same firm, right? You have all these different paths, and you have to just find yours. And if there's obstacles, right, doesn’t mean that I'm wrong for wanting that thing, it just means that, oh, there's something there. There's something behind it. You know? 

Kate: Yeah. 

CJ: And now I have this space where I am very happy with the work that I'm doing. I'm super busy, growing in my career. People are scared to push because what if you’re told “no”? Well, then you’re back where you were before.

Kate: Yeah. And people get worried about perception, I think, especially in the law because–

CJ: Yeah.

Kate: -- nobody wants to be especially the new person who's saying no to work. But you're not necessarily– certainly not in your case, you're asking for more work– but you don't want to be, like, the problem. Right?

CJ: Right. Well, I think that's why it's important to do it when you think about because if you wait too long, then your whole tone about the thing gets bad. If you feel like, okay, well, I'm not liking this. Evaluate that immediately. Because you don't wanna wait six months a year down the road because then you're just gonna like lose it, right, if they tell you no.

Kate: That's such a great point. When you went to your supervisor and were like, “Hey, I would like more work,” was it like, “I want more work. I don't really know what kind, I'm open. Let's figure it out together”? Or were you like, “I like ABCD, I would like to see more of that”? How specific were you? 

CJ: I was very specific because you know, there's the work at law firms that kind of first first to third years do, right? And then there's work that, like, fourth and fifth years do. And then there is kind of more senior work that kinda six through ninth years get to do. And I felt like I was ready for that kinda six to nine year tranche, and so I had identified it before I went to her.

My wife is big on this. She always says, you go to a meeting and you're nervous about it, just write out your script before you go. It calms you down, it settles you, it centers you, it makes you remember to hit all the points. Cause like, you the last thing you wanna do is go into a high stakes meeting and forget the thing you wanted to ask for. 

Kate: Yep. (Laughing) As someone who has done that. 

Josey: The worst!

CJ: Right? Well, that's- Right? (Laughing) You should've called my wife first, right? 

Kate: I’m going to from now on, please give me her phone number. 

Josey: Yeah. I was just gonna say writing that down for next time.

CJ: I will. But because these people that lead us, right? The- One, they're so busy, but two, they're they're good at pushing people off. They're good at telling people what they wanna hear and making you feel better in the moment, but you wanna leave with the solution. Right?

 So write it down. It's very specific. She just said, “Yeah, you're ready for it. We just haven't gotten you to that point yet. Let's do it.”

Kate: Yeah.

Josey: I did have a question. So we've talked a little bit about the type of work that you were doing kinda leading to burnout. I am curious if there's anything else that you felt like was compiling and leading to that burnout. 

CJ: Yeah, definitely. So something about law firms that really troubles me and kinda weighs heavily on kinda the work I do and how I do it is the fact that law firms are just simply not very diverse. I think that's something that we have to fix, and everyone knows that law firms have claimed that they're gonna fix it and they started in 2020, I'll just say out of guilt. 

Kate: Yeah.

(Kate laughs.)

CJ: They they started really say, “Oh, well, we haven't done a good job at this. Let's now fix it.” Right? 

But fact of the matter is that if you look at the demographics in our country, thirteen percent of people in our country are Black. Right? Eight percent of law students are Black. Five percent of lawyers are Black. Only two percent of firm partners are Black. And that five percent number has been the same since, like, 2010, 2011. So --

Kate: Mhmm.

CJ: -- you just ask yourself in this, like, age of equality in a modern society where all schools have a pipeline, what’s happening? 

The the old story used to be, well, Black people don't wanna be in the law. Well, that's just, like, that's just not true. 

Kate: Right.

CJ: Like, that's just- that's just- like, it's silly. And then I've heard from people, from law firm leaders, I've heard them say, “Well, you know, what happens is our lawyers get to be fifth and six years, and then they get recruited to go to other firms or in house because they wanted a better life.” Well, okay. That's that's true, but that applies to all kinds of lawyers. So why are the numbers different? 

Firms just aren't recruiting, and they're not retaining Black people at the same numbers. Now there are lots and lots of reasons why. Unfortunately, there's not good data on this. But the issue is that people don't feel comfortable and they're not supported over the long term.

So me, as a Black associate, now as a Black senior associate, being tasked with lots and lots of like, recruiting, and mentoring… It’s stuff that I like to do, but also takes a lot of time. Right? So if you compare CJ senior associate who happens to be Black, to same level person who happens to be white... Well, my extracurricular legal activities as far as time input far outweigh the other person’s by something that I can't control.

Kate: Yeah. 

CJ: That didn't ask for. Now I love being Black, and I- I am happy to help people. And I always answer questions and try to connect people and mentor people when I can.

And- and so that's something that weighs on me heavily and we're trying to actively fix. But you have a real competition right now. Every law firm, right, out there is trying to go to all the same schools and recruit the same students. You have to explain to these twenty-two, twenty-three-year-olds, like, why they should come to your law firm. Right?

And firms are throwing money at the problem, which is great, people appreciate it, but that is not the solution. The solution is you have to have more senior associates who relate to them and who will help them and support them. People that are Black and not Black. Right? They have more partners, right, that they feel comfortable calling to for support. That's gonna fix it in the long run.

The money is like, it's nice. The money is nice– (Kate laughs.) but it's not gonna fix it. And- and so fixing it at my personal level means that people can call me whenever. People can reach out to me for a coffee meeting whenever, which I gladly welcome. But then how do you get the work done?

Kate: Right. 

CJ: How do you get the billable stuff done? I think something that people don't appreciate if you're not in a law firm is that you have to account for every hour of your day, but you only get paid for the hours that a client will pay for. 

Kate: Yep.

Josey: Mmhmm.

CJ: Firms have addressed this in a few ways. They tried to do a separate DEI bonus for associates who are kinda going to love and beyond and mentoring and recruiting diverse associates.

Kate: That's interesting. I was gonna ask because I was like, “And I’m sure you're not getting any money for that extra time.”

Josey: I haven't heard of that.

Kate: I never heard of that either.

CJ: Yeah. I've only heard of it in the last sixteen to eighteen months. 

Kate: Oh!

CJ: My firm did it for the first time last year. And it is nice, right? 

But it remains to be seen whether, when you get to a partnership conversation or a council conversation, and they're talking about elevation and compensation--

Josey: Yeah.

CJ: -- are they going to say, “Well, you didn't do as many billable hours as somebody else because you were doing this other stuff and now we're gonna hold you back”?

Josey: Mhmm. 

CJ: Because the ans- the easy answer is, “Okay, well, if you're not gonna help me be elevated, then maybe I won't do as much of that stuff that you're asking me to do.” Right?

Kate: Yeah.

CJ: Because I'm doing it because I wanna do it also, but I'm a being asked to do it as well. And so you have that tension. And if I don't do it, then not only do I, like, feel bad about it because I wanna do it. But then, are you gonna help me get- get more work? Are you gonna support me in that way? Or is it gonna be then, “Well, you don't contribute to the firm enough in these ways that we care about”? So now you're dinged on that front. So you have kind of this damned if you do, damned if you don't approach.

And I think that just, like, weighs on Black attorneys so heavily. And people- Nobody talks about it. 

So if you go to a firm where there is, like, a strong base of people that resonate with you and look like you, and you feel like you're not having to do all the recruiting, you should go home and- and thank your lucky stars. Right? Because that is not common at most big law firms despite all the marketing. 

It's funny I was talking to a law student and they were saying, “Well, it seems like, you know, law firms are just so liberal these days.” You know? And I – I had to stop them.

(All laugh.)

Kate: Enter, Lewis Brisbois.

CJ: And I said, well, all the law firm, like, managing partners that I know are white men.

Josey: Mhmm. 

CJ: Most of the partners nationally, like, overwhelmingly are men, and mostly are white men. At one of the first I worked at, I was at one point tied with another person for the most senior Black associate in our office. And then in another firm, I was the most senior Black associate in our office. And I was only like a third or fourth year. So like it is not that. It's not that. Right?

Kate: Yeah. 

CJ: Firms have to do better and I and they're not going to do better until they're forced to do better. And, frankly, there aren't enough clients that are actually putting the screws to firms to make them do better. That weighs on you and that in itself is a different type of burnout.

Kate: Yeah. 

Josey: Yeah. 

Kate: Absolutely. And- and it's interesting because there are companies that will help firms try and diversify, right? But, like, numbers can lie very easily–

CJ: Yeah.

Kate: -- and a lot of firms will recruit a bunch of white women, and they're like, “Oh, well, look now we're fifty percent diverse. Right? They don't have to break down on what metric.”

CJ: Yeah.

Kate: And so accountability is tough. 

CJ: Yeah. You know, the thing on self law firms that are worried about these numbers so much, is that law students know the numbers are junk.

Kate: Mhmm.

CJ: All of my friends I went to law school would tell me the same thing. When a law student comes to you, they wanna know who they're gonna be working for. Who's gonna give me work? Right? Who's gonna be assigned to me to help me push my career forward? 

And if you're saying, “Oh, we're so diverse.” But there's not anybody, there's not a woman, there's not any diverse person that actually has power to give work out, or power to, you know, shepherd you to partnership or counsel, you're not gonna get that student. Some of them are worried about not just them but also, like, their friends and other practice groups too. So if you have one superstar and one practice group that is recruiting a lot of people, well, that's- that's good. But it's gonna be hard to get a cohort, a posse of people to push your numbers up over the long term, and then you're playing from behind the eight ball.

Josey: I think that that's so key that- people at the top being able to nurture and mentor you to that place of becoming partner or a senior level associate or whatever. We all know associate level work is intense, and you're putting that extra level of work on their plate, but then you have nothing above that to nurture both them and the people that you're trying to recruit into those next levels, then how is that effort going to be carried through?

CJ: Right.

Kate: Yeah. If you're seeing firms that have been doing it for a while and maybe they a lot of diverse associates, but no senior- that can speak to retention too. I think a lot of people focus on diversity in hiring and then stop. You have to have that support in place once people are actually working for you.

CJ: Right. I'm a huge wrestling fan. And so, Macho Man Randy Savage, rest in peace-- (Kate and Josey laugh.) -- would always say, “The cream rises to the top.”

Kate: (In Macho Man Randy Savage voice.) Yeah, brother!

CJ: (Also in Macho Man voice) Oh yeahhh! (All laugh.) And I- I think that's true to a certain point. Right? But I think what we forget about in these places where you have silos, where you have your own fifedom, right, in a law firm… People can be pushed down actively, right? And the partners will never admit to it but it's happening, and you have partners getting work to people purely because they are alike. 

Kate: Mm.

CJ: And they would never admit to that. But maybe I know your, you know, sibling because they went to school with my younger kid, or maybe you went to school with my kid, or maybe I know your parents, or maybe we live in the same neighborhood, maybe we went to the same high school.

Josey: “You remind me of me as, you know, at your age.” 

Kate: Yeah.

CJ: “You remind me of me.” If- if your firm doesn't have any Black partners, how could I ever remind somebody of themselves?

Kate: Mhmm. 

Josey: Exactly. 

CJ: And if you look in the history of education, you know, our country, right: Our schools have been desegregated pretty much since the early seventies, in earnest. And then in the eighties, people started making private and parochial schools. So there's probably not a school that I'm going to a partner that I’ve worked for has also gone to. Right? That's just like, that's just not, it's not happened.

Kate: “Where did you go to law school?” is one of the first bonding questions that you ask someone. 

CJ: Right. And in some big cities in the South, especially, “Where did you go to prep school? Where did you go to high school? What neighborhood you live in?” is a is a huge bonding thing. And if you don't have those markers, right, those social keys, then you’re just left outside the door. 

I think firms just assume, you know, Macho Man said, “The cream rises to the top, brother.” (Kate and Josey laugh.) Like, it's it's not always the case. It’s not always the case. It’s- We have to figure out why it’s happening.

Kate: Yeah. And I’m curious, CJ, like when did that work start being put on you? Was it pretty immediate when you- Like, right out of law school? 

CJ: Yes. So my current firm is really good about being thoughtful about these things, so you're not actually allowed to recruit at all until you're a year in at my current firm. And it's because they want you to get your sea legs, they want you to really figure out what the law's about before you even get put out there. 

Kate: Yeah, how are you supposed to recruit someone if you haven't even at the firm for- 

Josey: Mhmm.

You don't even have the lay of the land yet.

CJ: Exactly. But some really resourceful law students will reach out to you because your name's on the website, you have an email address and phone number available. And anyone that's willing to do that kinda leg work, I always meet with them. Always. 

Josey: Mhmm. 

CJ: But I've seen other firms where a person will join, and then the next week, they're all of a sudden on the diversity committee. They don't know anything about your firm. They don't know anybody in your firm. They don't know to get work. We don't know, you know, where the printer is a week in. (Kate laughs.) Right? 

Josey: (Laughing) They don't even know what's ahead of them in the associate work. They're like, they they don't know. 

Kate: They don't know how to be a lawyer yet. They just went to law school, that doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer. They don’t know.

CJ: They don't know anything.

And what I'm telling to these firms is, students can tell. Right? And your employees do not feel good being selected to be on these committees one week into being on the firm. They wanna see you doing the work you know, without them having to be the center of it.

Because what happens a lot of times is you're being sent out to recruit, but you have no real power. I remember as a- as a law student, I was doing several interviews, and a firm that I did not end up going to offered me a position. They had two black partners in this huge firm. And one of them emailed me and said, “Hey, you know, heard you had a great interview. I wasn't able to be there because I had another commitment. But would love to make myself available to you if you ever wanted to chat about the firm.”

Looking back at it now, it probably was like, fifty percent a sweet sentiment and fifty percent, like, totally just pushed by the firm. 

Josey: Mmhmm.

CJ: Right? But at the time, as a law student, I felt super disrespected by that.

Kate: Mm.

CJ: I- it just was transparent. It was nakedly transparent to me this is just a play. They know that they don't have anybody to show show me that would actually care about me long term. This is just a play. Right? And so instead of at my interview, them saying to me, “What do you wanna do? Like, how can we help you get there?” It was just the most generic interview. The most, like, soulless experience I've never had at a law firm.

Kate: Wow, that's gotta be saying something. “The most soulless experience I've had at a law firm.” Is a- That's a strong statement.

CJ: I'm- Kate, it was bad. (Josey and Kate laugh) And then I think- And then I'm leaving the building, I get this email. I'm like, well, I'm not even- no.

Josey: No. 

CJ: Right? No. No. Nothing to talk about. Because that person that that emailed me wasn't even gonna be in my practice group.

Josey: What? 

Kate: Oh, yeah.

Josey: Wow. 

CJ: Right? And so then you wonder, “Okay, why can't we recruit? Why can't we retain?” Well, we treat people that are already here like, they're just here to to catch other fish, not to build their own careers, and then we can't recruit because our efforts aren't genuine. 

Kate: Yeah. And, Josey, you experienced a little bit of it as a woman, right, in- in your firm environments, fairly early…? 

Josey: Yeah.

Kate: Or am I misremembering, misquoting you? Please correct if so.

Josey: No. And I mean, it's- I remember being hired at at a firm where, shortly afterwards, there was this conversation about, you know, diversifying the firm, and I was brought into that conversation as a woman. And because it was mostly- It was all male partners, actually. There was this conversation around how do we diversify, but also this resistance to it and this idea that diversifying meant handing out freebies.

And that's how it was presented to me. And when they did that to me, it was like, you just joined the firm as a young woman, you can speak to this audience of younger people that were trying to recruit, but also I've now just said that we're doing this as a token. So then what does that say to me as someone you've just hired? Am I someone that you hired to look a certain part for you as a younger person, a woman that can talk to people that you want to join a firm that looks good for you, or is it because of my skill?

And it's its own experience and that's not to say that it's been all of my experience. I've had- I've worked for really great firms that- that were very different. It was disheartening, and it was one of those things where I'm like, is it me or is it the work that I'm producing? 

CJ: Right. 

Kate: Yeah. 

CJ: I was once in a- a call of people who are recruiting students and we had kind of this open spot for people that were diverse and then there was like a separate spot for kind of all students. The leader of the committee said, “Make sure we are considering- both of these groups we're considering kind of the gender balance, and relational and ethnic makeup of the group.” Just generally, you know, not that we're giving anybody preference, not that we're gonna give anybody a pass. Our standards are the same. And one partner on this call with twenty people said, “You know, well, the diversity stuff is all well and good, but we should make sure we get the qualified candidates in first.”

(Kate sighs.)

Josey: I had that same thing happen. 

Kate: Those two things are not mutually exclusive. 

CJ: Right. And that's a partner. I'm an associate. That's horribly offensive, but there's no one on the call that has the power to say, “That's horribly offensive.” And somebody that doesn’t understand law firm culture may say, “Well, why not?” Was because at law firm, you are technically subordinate to everyone that is one year above you. Right? So as an associate, I work for all the partners at my firm, and they have the ability to weigh in on my interview review on my, like, promotion reviews. 

Kate: Mmhmm.

CJ: Like, they have the ability to move things around. And depending on how powerful they are, they could really mess you up.

What is your incentive as a young person, as a young woman, as a young young diverse person to say, “Hey, that was really messed up”?

Josey: Yeah. And it's really challenging.

Kate: Yeah. And everybody knows, like, you pick your battles. Right? And, you know, for every layer of identity you add that's not a white guy, there are more battles.

Josey:  Mhmm. 

CJ: Right. 

Kate: I used to do prisoner advocacy and- and then worked for the public defender's office, and so I went into prisons and jails a lot. And it's like, do I say something to that guard that calls me “sweetheart” when I'm here as an attorney? Probably not, because I don't want that guard to then go and fuck over my client who I'm meeting with and take it out on them. Right? 

Josey: Mmhmm.

CJ: Right.

Kate: It’s a lot of calculations that go into each of those moments. 

Josey: It's the same when you have a named partner, and they decide that they wanna call you one thing versus another, and it's just like, is this worth the battle? It is a matter of choosing your battles, and it is a different layer to the job than I think a white male entering the field will experience.

CJ: Right. And I think you say, “Well, why wouldn't you just leave that job?” Well, if you have student loans -- 

Josey: Mhmm. 

CJ: -- right, then you're not free to leave. Or if you- What if you like your job, what if you want to be in your job?

Kate: Yeah!

CJ: Right? Then you shouldn't be you shouldn't be made to leave. People say, “Oh, why would you tolerate that?” Well, it's not really tolerating it. It's me understanding, man, this is really messed up, and I have to appeal to their better angels. To be better people. 

Josey: Mhmm.

Kate: Yeah.

CJ: That's- that's tough pill to swallow and it's a it's a tough thing to take on going to work every day.

Josey: Because you work in Biglaw, I'm curious: I'm sure you've heard this selling your soul, you know, to work in Biglaw or choosing- This constant thing of, you know, like Biglaw is shit, or Biglaw is the problem for everything.

It's like it- it's true. Like, there are a lot of issues with Biglaw, and I- I remember feeling like, “Oh, am I selling by being in this when I'm someone that does care about these issues or I'm someone that doesn't agree with the things that happen sometimes in this?” But my defense is, like, there are so many blockers for so many people that are not, again, white and male in this country, to get into law and then to be prosperous and to move up and to make the same salary and to do all of these things throughout it. 

Everything that I did in college, I had to pay back. Everything I did was on a student loan. And so I didn't feel like I was selling out at a certain point to be in Biglaw. I felt like the firm that I'm working with, maybe there are some things that I don't always agree with, but there are a lot of things that I think they're doing well because they have the resources and because they have the client pushing them to do better too. And also, I'm able to pay back certain things. 

And so I really kind of pushed back on this idea that going into Biglaw meant that I didn't care as much about some of these issues. And I don't know if you've experienced that in your journey with big law or not…

CJ: I've heard the same thing. I disagree with it for a few reasons.

The first is that we all have our paths in life. Right? And some of us just have to do what we have to do to get on. Right? 

Kate: Mhmm. 

CJ: And especially for people that grew up kind of without like, parents that could foot the bill after eighteen, if you can get into a big law firm, you've taken your family’s, like, generational wealth from zero to sixty really quickly.

Kate and Josey: Mhmm. 

CJ: So you've done a really, really good thing for your families mobility socially. And anybody that says, well, like, you know, “Law firms are sold as corporations,” I would question, like, what else they do in their life? Like, and who else they're attached to? Because most things in the capitalist society, like, function around how can we create money. Right? 

Kate: Yeah, do you use Amazon at all that anybody? 

Josey: Love Amazon.

CJ: Yeah, I mean, I think that's tough.

And the second thing I would say is that, you know, I really like my clients. Like, the people that I work across from are really good people, and I do help really, really cool companies do really, really cool things. Like, when a team owner is able to put more money into a ballpark, which helps the city increase its downtown revenue and the value, and the star player gets paid and people love that the start player stayed in town, I help with those kind of deals. That is really fun to watch, you know?

Kate: Yeah!

CJ: When-when-when a team that has no business winning, like, gets the financing they need to keep around a free agent, and I helped to do that, that is really fun to do.

I think people have this binary view of the world. I mean it's the same thing we said earlier about, you know, we're either getting a diverse candidate or we're getting a qualified candidate.  Nothing is binary and so you really have to just, like, kind of be cool with yourself and be thoughtful about what you do. 

Kate: Yeah. It it sounds like both of you kind of have experienced the good and the bad. And CJ, I'd love to hear from you what you think… Like, how can firms do better? If we're giving them the huge benefit of the doubt and saying, they're just struggling with figuring out how to do this, and they are trying to balance getting a diverse workforce with trying not to tokenize someone or trying not to put that burden on those people. How how do you do it? Like, how do you do it effectively? 

CJ: That's a great question, and I think about this often. I haven't thought about that specific question.

But the first thing that I think people could do in the law firm setting, is really implement a work allocation system and have someone that's in power monitor it. And by that I mean you're monitoring how busy your associates are, the kinds of things they're doing, the kinds of clients they're working with, and, as objectively as possible, get feedback on why things are the way they are.

 I've always heard from diverse associates at at Biglaw firms they sometimes have hard times staying busy, especially early on. You know, it's funny you would never imagine a person at a law firm ever having trouble finding work. But the secret is that it happens to a lot of diverse people. It happens to- to entry-level lawyers that are diverse, and to lateral lawyers.

And so I would really encourage all firms to implement that and then use it. Right? And then you know, ask the partners, “Hey, why in your group is it that this person doesn't have anything versus this person over here?” Right? And get some real feedback. 

The second thing I would do is about being more intentional about how you treat people. Remember that anytime you do something, the people that are below you are gonna model that, so if you are ignoring all the women associates in your group, then the people you're training are gonna do that same thing, and that culture is gonna just erode.

And then when you're working with clients, be aggressive enough and confident enough to really manage that client in the right way. So if that client if disrespecting your young associate because they're young or because they're a woman or because they're Black or whatever it is… You really got to take a hard look at that. And is your obligation to communicate to your client, “You know, I don't tolerate that.”

The truth of the matter is that if you believe the client is a good person, then they'll hear you, won't take offense to it, and you all can create a better relationship after that. But if they're a bad person and they, for some reason, fire your firm because you've said to them, “Hey, you're you're being really bad to us…” Then aren’t you better off anyway? 

Kate: Yeah. Trash took itself out, right? 

Josey: Mmhmm.

CJ: Right? So I think those three things could help, because a- a lot of the problems we've discussed today are kind of cultural things. Right? And then you have to- I guess, fourthly, empower the associates to come to you with problems. To have somebody above them that they trust. Right? And it can't be, you know, seventh-year senior associate CJ. Like, uh- Who has no real power. Right? (Kate and Josey laugh.) It has to be somebody that can- that can- that can move something. So I think that's- that's where you go. That's where you go. 

Josey: CJ, those are great points that I think, especially when we talk about Biglaw and for anyone that is going to be listening to this, either going into Biglaw or that's already in it. 

CJ: Thank you.

Josey: I wish I had heard those. 

Kate: Yeah. 

CJ: Good. Good. Well, thank you. 

Kate: This has been amazing and a fantastic conversation and we so, so appreciate you joining us and- and being so open and sharing your- your story and your thoughts with us, CJ, we really appreciate it.

Josey: Yeah.

CJ: I really appreciate you all and what you're doing is great, it's gonna help a lot of people. So thank you for doing this.

Kate: That's the hope. That's the goal. Thank you. 

Josey: Oh man, thank you.

Outtro

The legal burnouts is produced by me, Kate Bridal. Our music is by Keegan Stotsenberg. Our art is by Growlforce. Thanks for listening.